I live in Oregon and am on probation. My probation officer, and counsler just told me that it is now mandatory that I take a full disclosure poly when it wasn't before. My question is this: Do I have the right to deny taking a poly? Also what about pleading the 5th? They can't force you to testify against yourself. If you take a poly, basically that is giving them info against you so they can use it. Thank you for any/and all advise.
Syd
I would imagine it's part of your probation package. You always have the option of going back to jail and serving out your full sentence.
Just say NO!
And go back to jail!
That could be the end result.....but I'd like to see someone "forced" to take a polygraph test. It would seem to me that forcing someone to take a polygraph test would be in violation of APA standards....appears to be a dilema for an APA member.
Unless a post-conviction polygraph was agreed upon as a special condition of probation, legally your PO has very little ground to stand upon with regard to his demand you take one (and pass).
Having said that, you should also be aware that Probation Officers have wide, wide latitude and are often given 'the benefit of the doubt' if and when they come before a judge. There is no clearly defined 'bright line' they cannot cross with regard to their probationees, as long as their edicts are not 'malicious and punitive'. For example, your PO could not order you to post a sign in your yard reading, "Convicted wife beater lives here" or something similar.
If successful passing of a polygraph is not a part of your conditions or special conditions of probation, nor a part of successful completion of whatever counseling program you are attending, I think you have every right to refuse such a ludicrous interrogation. You will need a lawyer, one who will sit down with you and your PO to discuss this. I would recommend recording that meeting. Should your PO still insist on a polygraph, the way I see it you have two options:
1. (respectfully) Tell your PO to violate your probation and take the matter before a judge.
2. Download, read, and understand The Lie Behind The Lie Detector.
Syd
Have your PO give you the Oregon Administrative Rule covering the poly requirement for sex offenders. I don't think it is required for any other offense. I can't quote it offhand, but it's there. The Oregon legislature, as did Texas, passed that law a number of years back. They can, also, require a UA. Deny either and, as Saidme stated, you will be violated and WILL serve your sentence.
Do not refuse to take it. If you can't afford the cost of a poly, just tell them "I am not refusing to take it, I just can't afford it and take care of my personal requirements. If the state will pay for it let's get it on". I believe it is unconstitutional for the state to require an indigent to pay for one of their probation or parole requirements. Just don't refuse. The Supp. Crt. has already ruled that requireing a poly and registration IS constitutional.
BTW, if you fail either they can violate you and send you back. They probably won't because of their financial crises. It seems that Oregon's largest industry "prisons" is getting smaller because of money woes. My state isn't in that financial condition.
Many yrs. ago I was in your position, same state in fact. As part of your release into probation it is required that you take a poly. Refusal to do so IS a probation violation. They usually only require them for one certain type of offence. So my suggestion to you is that you do not fight it, as it will make them very suspicious, and will just land you back in jail. It has been mandatory for at least 11yrs. They will do a pre and post interview, so remember the interviewer is not your friend. Based on his report they can investigate (due to being on probation) any suspicious results. Good luck.
Syd,
Quote(m) If under supervision for, or previously convicted of, a sex offense under ORS 163.305 to 163.467, and if recommended by the supervising officer, successfully complete a sex offender treatment program approved by the supervising officer and submit to polygraph examinations at the direction of the supervising officer.
This is Oregon Revised Statute 137.540(m). It is the only statute in Oregon requiring or allowing polygraphs by probationers, so you must have committed one of the referenced offenses.
QuoteDo I have the right to deny taking a poly?
Yes, but plan on doing the rest of your time in prison.
Quote...giving them info against you so they can use it.
This would be true only if you have something you're hiding :-/
Some states have provisions in the law specifying that the results of a PCSOT can't be used for violation purposes, nor can any past crimes that surface be prosecuted. I don't know what position Oregon takes on this. Ask an attorney.
I can't in good faith advocate that you attempt to use CM's to beat the test. If you are a sex offender and there are things you're hiding from your therapist, you need to get them out in the open so you can get some help. While I don't usually make assumptions, your post leads me to believe that you are hiding something. If I'm wrong, I apologize.
Orolan hit it dead on. They will do a full disclosure as well as follow up polys. usually once a month for about 6 months. (usually all at your expense) In Oregon any info that is found to be suspicious can and in sum cases will be investigated, and have to be substantiated. However the results of your poly. still cannot be used against you.
All...
Are these polygraphs for probation usually CQT's?
Suethem,
Yes.
First I want to say thanks to everyone that has replied.
I better clarify what I am on probation for. I have never commited or been convicted of a sex offence. I took a plea to an assault IV charge, which is domestic violence. My wife and I got into a real bad argument. A neighbor ended up calling the cops and I went to jail, eventhough neither one of us hit the other one.
I am currently doing the D.V. classes, and have to call in every day to see if I need to do a U.A. or not. We still have a court enforced no contact order in place that we can't get dropped. We both have tried to get it dropped through the court and my PO and they just keep telling us no. My wife didn't even want it in place from the very begining.
So to answer the question if I am hiding something or not, yes I am. My wife and I still live together, eventhough this no contact order has been in effect for over a year now.
I don't have anymore jail time to do. I just have to complete the D.V. class, and have two years of probation. My PO didn't say anything to me at the very begining about a poly, and neither did the counsler at the D.V. class. From everything that I have heard from the other people in the class, it isn't manditory to take a poly to pass the class. All of a sudden the two of them started talking, and I am sure that my PO convinced my counsler to do this.
The thing is that I didn't give them a reason to think that I am hiding anything. I have taken several UA's and passed all of them, and never admitted to having unauthorized contact with my wife. I hope that with this info it will help clarify my situation.
Thanks again to all that have replied.
syd
That changes everything. The only offence that can be legally forced is for a S.O. That being said I would recommend you follow Beech trees advice as posted on July 2. Unless it was orderd before hand I don't think they can just ad what ever they want without challenge.
Good Luck and sorry about the assumption.
doesn't matter:
Hey not a problem on the assumption. I wasn't clear on what the details were. I haven't had a chance to talk to my lawyer yet, but I will be seeing him here in about two weeks. I just didn't know if what they were trying to do was legal, I know that it doesn't seem right. But then again not much of what they do is right. I knew of the manditory poly for S.O., but had never heard of it for other crimes.
syd
Sid
Sounds like your PO and the polygrapher has a money deal cooked up. Tell them to stick it where the sun don't shine. Your state is no better than Mexico when it comes to leo's on the take.
There is no poly requirement in that state except for SO. As you state it wasn't written in as part of your probation. Tell your PO to log on to this site and get informed.
Syd,
Sorry about the assumption :-[
A careful reading of the statutes and the 2003 session laws failed to turn up any further reference to polygraph testing of probationers other than SO's. Since you are "required" to attend and complete your DV treatment program, it is possible that the therapist could include polygraphs as a part of the program. You would then have to take it or risk "failing".
Best to talk it over with your lawyer before making any decisions about what to do.
If "Syd" is your real name then don't tell your PO to log onto this site. You have put up enough info for him to get you for violating the no-contact order. (No offense, twoblock ;D)
I thought this was an antipolygraph site! Seems like it's turning into the Dear Abbey for convicted criminals. I get a kick out of all of you do-gooders (sarcasm) trying to help the convicts circumvent their court ordered treatment programs. George must be proud of you all. ;)
Saidme,
QuoteI thought this was an antipolygraph site!
Are you implying that this thread is off-topic? If so, please explain.
Quote...circumvent their court ordered treatment programs.
I believe the issue under discussion is whether or not the polygraph is a
legal part of the treatment program. I fail to see where advising Syd to speak with his attorney can be construed as "circumventing" the program.
Saidme,
The people on probation are given a CQT, the same method as given to LE applicants ( pre-employment polygraphs).
You know that this type of test is inaccurate, thats why you haven't and won't ever administer one.
So I find it interesting that you would be upset.
If the 'test' is flawed for LE applicants then it is flawed for probation matters as well.
I find the fact that probation uses the CQT test to determine who has violated scary. Innocent people who haven't violated the terms of their sentence will 'fail' and people who have violated, will 'pass'
It also bothers me that many State LE agencies cannot even find their SO and other people on probation (they just haven't kept their records current).
So before you point your finger at the antipolygraph crowd take a good look at the system...
Saidme
I don't understand your obsession with kicking the bucket. I like to, occasionally, get in an agitating lick or two. Mostly, though, I try to add substance to my posts. If you took time to read my first post to this thread, then you know I wasn't attempting to help circumvent probation. Since the PO was trying to make him take a poly, I mistakenly assumed that Syd was a SO (sorry for that Syd) and that does carry a mandatory poly.
A punitive PO and/or counselor has NO authority to change rules of probation. They are charged with administering the RULES of probation or parole to the letter. No more or no less. You should know this. Or doesn't this apply to federal service? Syd has said that polygraph was NOT part of his probation. If the judge didn't order it, then he has a legal right to tell them to stick it. I would always advise probationers and parolees to stick to the letter of their rules as set forth by the judge. If they can pass muster and stay clean, then rejoin society.
;D bottom line, refuse to do the poly on probation you go to jail or prison!!!
Probation is not a right its a privilege. Its a suspended prison sentence for convicted felons, that the Court gave a benefit of being supervised in the community.
So the sex offenders on here who molested the 14 year old girls, you deserve to have the poly done...
The law enforcement applicants to get backballed god bless you
John Doe
It is my understanding that nearly all, if not all, judges require sex offenders to submit to polygraphs as part of their parole/probation. I will agree that refusing to take a poly, ordered by a judge, will result in a PV and they will go back to jail.
Are you saying, in other cases, that a PO has the authority to over turn a judge's directive (that didn't include a polygraph as part of a parolee's parole)) and order a polygraph? I don't think so. If you think they do, then quote the authority.
Quote from: John Doe on Jan 04, 2004, 09:04 PM;D bottom line, refuse to do the poly on probation you go to jail or prison!!!
Probation is not a right its a privilege. Its a suspended prison sentence for convicted felons, that the Court gave a benefit of being supervised in the community.
So the sex offenders on here who molested the 14 year old girls, you deserve to have the poly done...
The law enforcement applicants to get backballed god bless you
Been gone a while and it's reassuring to know the world still has misinformed idiots hanging around. Hats off to John Doe for representing the very best of what our educational system has to offer in terms of producing an uneducated, ignorant redneck.
Please translate "The law enforcement applicants to get backballed god bless you" for those of us who write and speak english.
As for "Probation is not a right its a privilege. Its [sic] a suspended prison sentence for convicted felons, that the Court gave a benefit of being supervised in the community, " what right would that be? Not everyone who receives probation has a suspended jail or prison sentence hanging over them. Believe it or not, sometimes probation is just probation.
And for "So the sex offenders on here who molested the 14 year old girls, you deserve to have the poly done...," why not simply institute torture or beatings? Aren't those effective methods of eliciting the truth?
John Doe: proof that computer use should be regulated and licensed. What a waste of electrons.
I've also been away for a while. Does seem that the idiots are still alive and well.
How you been, Mr. Truth?
I was wondering what ever happened in this case to Syd??? Currently in a simular situation and was wondering what kind of out come there was.
As far as I know, yes, PO's can require a poly, especially if the judge ordered it.
Question of my own: my PO has specifically stated, on more than one occasion, that the Feds cannot and do not violate someone based on the results of a polygraph. Of course, I know they could investigate, but I really have very little in my current life that they would care about. Should I take my PO at his word? He seems to be honest, but then after what has happened to me, I don't trust anyone in government.
What would be a likely scenario post-test if they had a problem with one of my responses (I don't mean an attempt at a confession)? Do agencies conduct major investigations based simply on a bunch of wavy lines? Thanks...
in texas if you are s.o. as you say. it is ordered that poly be administered.
if ordered by counselor and you fail. they send you to prison no questions asked.
"NN & RR Küssen sie meinen esel"
"Ich suche Blutrache auf meinem PO"
sorry for the language guys but its for those who might be reading. not the members of this site.
If taking a poly is a new part of your probation, not listed on any paperwork you signed, contact a criminal defense attorney. They might be able to modify the conditions of your probation so you don't have to do it.