I was wondering if having close relatives residing overseas is an automatic denial for a top-secret clearance with the CIA. I mean half-sisters and one of your parents.
The country is considered non-hostile to the U.S. I passed the CIA polygraph and my BI has now gone to adjudication. I am concern about my foreign national relatives; I even declared on my foreign contact form that I had told two of my relatives about my future employment with the Agency; any thoughts will be appreciated.
Opp
Hey Opp,
I have wondered about the same thing. I have a half-sister who is (actually...she just became a U.S. citizen) a foreign national and was wondering if that would affect the adjudication.
As far as your foreign national family members knowing, when I first got my COE I called someone at the CIA to see if it was okay if I told my half-sister. The guy I talked to said he called the security department and they said it was okay to tell her (she has lived in the U.S. essentially her whole life and was in the process of applying for citizenship, so maybe that's why they gave it the okay). That being said, depending on your circumstances, I think it could be okay that your family members know about your future employment.
And as far as the security clearance goes, this is a little more unclear. I know the CIA explicitly says that spouses must be U.S. citizens, but they hardly mention other immediate family members. This website has a list of DOD security clearance cases that were initially rejected then appealed: http://www.defenselink.mil/dodgc/doha/industrial/. There are a number of rejected cases due to family members being foreign nationals. Also, I know the State Department recommends that people seeking TS/SCI clearances generally need to have all immediate family members (parents, siblings, etc.) be U.S. citizens.
Of course, each department and agency has slightly different guidelines and standards, but I would think that if other government agencies take issue with foreign national family members, that issue would at least raise red flags with the CIA.
So, I guess what I am saying is that I don't know what affect it will have. I don't think it's an automatic denial, but I do think it could ultimately matter, depending on the circumstances in your case.
longtimelistener,
I appreciate the information. I think that if I get rejected, it will be due, in part, to my relatives abroad. I had no problems with the CIA polygraph which I passed on the first try. I regret telling some of my overseas relatives about my future CIA employment. The examiner never made my foreign relatives an issue, and I even told him that I had told my half-sister and mother about it employment with the CIA. How long has it been since your BI went to the adjudicator? Why don't you call them???? I have talk to my security officer several times and she has given me updates.
Opp
Hey Opp,
Believe me, I have been calling my program officer almost non-stop. I received my COE Feb. 2005, completed my poly/med in May 2005, and went into adjudication early June 2005. So I've been in adjudication since last June.
I've been calling every 4 weeks or so (I call every 2-3 weeks now), asking for an update and why it's taking so long. Each time I call, my program officer says the same thing--that there is nothing in my file that she can see that is "abnormal", and that my wait is typical, due to a backlog in the security department.
I too passed my poly on my first attempt, and I have a relatively clean record, so I'm not sure what the hold up is.
Opp, how long have you been in adjudication? And has your program officer been able to clarify why your wait is what it is?
Thanks,
HTH
longtimelistener,
My paperwork just went into adjudication. I know this is going to be a long wait, perhaps 5 or 6 months; this is in addition to the 14 months I have been involved in the process. I was just reading the clearance appeals on the above link and I think that my chances may not be that bad after all since my relatives are in a Latin American country.
If we both passed the CIA polygraph examination, which is perhaps the most stringent of all, I think that we are in a good position for employment with them. If they had doubts about our foreign relatives at the time of the examinations, I guess they could have failed us then. But, it is the CIA and they are very reluctant to give away the keys to the agency.
I agree. And it does seem that most of the "foreign influence" cases on that website involve close family members from countries that are obviously threats to the U.S.
And it is good that we passed the poly first time, which seems to be a pretty difficult thing to do. Even the fact that we entered adjudication is a good sign, since they do one last suitability screening before adjudication.
So all-in-all, things are probably okay, it's just waiting so long makes your mind analyze and over-analyze everything...
uggggh...
longtimelistener,
Do you know if a CIA rejection for a top secret can be appleal in court? Perhaps, George would know better.
opp,
I looked into this question when appealing the Army's revocation of my security clearance (shortly after I co-founded AntiPolygraph.org). It appears that security clearance determinations are not reviewable by the courts.
George.,
Thanks, but per the link above, it looks like people have appealed the rejections and many were overturned when they went before a judge. Are they only limitted to contractors?
opp,
The Defense Office of Hearings and Appeals (DOHA) website provides decisions on contractor cases only. Although DOHA judges hear appeals not only by contractors but also by members of the armed forces as well as Department of Defense employees, decisions concerning the latter are not available on-line. Note also that the "judges" who hear these cases are administrative law judges, that is, employees of the executive branch of government, as opposed to "real" judges (employees of the judicial branch).
Quote from: longtimelistener on Jan 06, 2006, 12:33 PM
I know the CIA explicitly says that spouses must be U.S. citizens,
thats only for operatives/field agents... that doesnt apply to all other positions.
Opp,
I am a contractor to the CIA, and hold active Secret and current Top Secret clearances. When filling out my SF86, I had to list all immediate family members, including my deceased Parents, living Brother, and my wife's deceased Mother and living Father, as US citizens. My boss married a foreign national and had to get a, "letter of compelling need", in order to get his clearance (but, I think he has a, "green badge"). My Brother's in-laws have business overseas and he had a real difficult time getting into NSA, as a contractor.
I believe that Kockstar is incorrect, in his assertion that this only applies to certain assignments/cases. Intel agencies require that spouses and immediate family members be US citizens - this is not the case for vanilla DoD clearances. This is a very strict requirement. Unlike the DoD, there are no courts/judges, that appeals can go forward.
Quote from: NSAreject on Jun 24, 2006, 02:32 PM
I believe that Kockstar is incorrect, in his assertion that this only applies to certain assignments/cases. Intel agencies require that spouses and immediate family members be US citizens - this is not the case for vanilla DoD clearances. This is a very strict requirement. Unlike the DoD, there are no courts/judges, that appeals can go forward.
i currently hold a TS/SCI as well.. My wife is a philippine national. I have many friends as well who work for NRO, Contractors, DOD, NSA .... all who have philippine or japanese wives.. Its not a strict requirment at all. you just need to get them cleared as well... submitt an SF-86 for the spouse.
Quote from: kockstar on Jun 26, 2006, 12:35 AM
i currently hold a TS/SCI as well.. My wife is a philippine national. I have many friends as well who work for NRO, Contractors, DOD, NSA .... all who have philippine or japanese wives.. Its not a strict requirment at all. you just need to get them cleared as well... submitt an SF-86 for the spouse.
Are you this kockstar (http://www.garageband.com/artist/cockstar)?
Quote from: Onesimus on Jun 26, 2006, 08:05 AM
Are you this kockstar (http://www.garageband.com/artist/cockstar)?
wtf are you even talking about here?
Quote from: kockstar on Jun 26, 2006, 09:07 AM
wtf are you even talking about here?
I think he wanted you to visit the link:
http://www.garageband.com/artist/cockstar
LOL
Quote from: underlyingtruth on Jun 26, 2006, 02:28 PM
I think he wanted you to visit the link:
http://www.garageband.com/artist/cockstar
LOL
wtf is that... lol.. those guys stole the name for thier band from something that nikki sixx made.. the same thing i did...
Kockstar,
Well, then debate it with:
http://www.securityinstruction.com/ADR/dcid64/dcid64T.htm
Personnel Security Standards and Procedures Governing Eligibility for Access to Sensitive Compartmented Information (SCI)
5. Personnel Security Standards.
a. The individual requiring access to SCI must be a US citizen.
b. The individual's immediate family must also be US citizens.
6. Exceptions to Personnel Security Standards.
c. Exceptions to the US citizenship requirement for individuals to be accessed to SCI and their immediate family members shall require certification of a compelling need. This exception should be based upon a specific national security requirement and a certification of compelling need.
Quote from: NSAreject on Jun 28, 2006, 01:28 PMKockstar,
Well, then debate it with:
http://www.securityinstruction.com/ADR/dcid64/dcid64T.htm
Personnel Security Standards and Procedures Governing Eligibility for Access to Sensitive Compartmented Information (SCI)
5. Personnel Security Standards.
a. The individual requiring access to SCI must be a US citizen.
b. The individual's immediate family must also be US citizens.
6. Exceptions to Personnel Security Standards.
c. Exceptions to the US citizenship requirement for individuals to be accessed to SCI and their immediate family members shall require certification of a compelling need. This exception should be based upon a specific national security requirement and a certification of compelling need.
yep check seciton "c"
thanks for looking it up.
Kockstar,
You are obviously not worth the time-of-day; you are probably a disgruntled polygrapher. The point of the article, is that getting an exception is not easy, and I am sure that most private contractors would not be willing to go that route - thus, I would consider it, generally, to be a clearance killer. My boss, even being a high-level program manager, had a difficult time getting cleared. Think and say, as you may. Yes, I am stupid, for playing into your hand...
Quote from: NSAreject on Jun 28, 2006, 09:58 PMKockstar,
You are obviously not worth the time-of-day;
why? coz your wrong? coz you yourself even proved yourself wrong? you dont know what your even talking about here... do you even have a foriegn born spouse and an SCI? I do. i know your wrong.
Quote from: NSAreject on Jun 28, 2006, 09:58 PM
you are probably a disgruntled polygrapher.
hahaha your so funny!! hahah i must be a disgruntled polygrapher.. you nerd.
Quote from: NSAreject on Jun 28, 2006, 09:58 PM
The point of the article, is that getting an exception is not easy, and I am sure that most private contractors would not be willing to go that route
now your speaking for most private contractors? first you made a dumb blanket statement and now you "am sure that most private contractors"
Quote from: NSAreject on Jun 28, 2006, 09:58 PM
I would consider it, generally, to be a clearance killer.
oh now its "generally to be a clearance killer".. alot different than your first statement you made...
Quote from: NSAreject on Jun 28, 2006, 09:58 PM
My boss, even being a high-level program manager, had a difficult time getting cleared.
but did he? as did MANY others.. thats why there is such a thing as a statment of compelling need. to get around that
Quote from: NSAreject on Jun 28, 2006, 09:58 PM
Think and say, as you may.
::)
Quote from: NSAreject on Jun 28, 2006, 09:58 PM
Yes, I am stupid, for playing into your hand...
no your stupid for making blanket statements about something you obviously knew nothing about but putting it out like was fact.
Seen this situation more than once; we had a secretary
with British relatives, that was able to get her TS, but
NSA would not clear her. I have been in this business
for many years, and yes, foreign relatives and foreign
immediate family members can be clearance killers.
And, I do have current ISA TS/SCI and active ISA Secret,
both of which, require US citizenship for the above,
or a request for an exception has to be made. My
point is that requests for exceptions are NOT
guarenteed. Now, is there a point to all this ranting ?
Looks like we have another, I-SMELL-BS...
NSAReject,
The Rantings and arguements sound like our old friend ODIN / BOSTON, back for another round of "Guess My New Handle". Just an observation.
Regards ....
EosJupiter,
Thanks for your support. Let's hope, I pissed off some
polygrapher at NSA, or at polygraphplace.com. Alas,
he will not deter my support for this site - helping
others from becoming victims of the polygraph
interrogation !
Oh yes, after I got kicked off polygraphplace.com, I
contacted them directly, via email, asking why my posts
were removed, but never received an answer.
Quote from: NSAreject on Jun 29, 2006, 03:09 PMEosJupiter,
Thanks for your support. Let's hope, I pissed off some
polygrapher at NSA, or at polygraphplace.com. Alas,
he will not deter my support for this site - helping
others from becoming victims of the polygraph
interrogation !
Oh yes, after I got kicked off polygraphplace.com, I
contacted them directly, via email, asking why my posts
were removed, but never received an answer.
NSAreject,
Just in the fact that Polygraphplace.com edits outside criticisms and bans people from their board speaks volumes on their profession. Every profession worthy of working accepts and adapts constructive comments. I always did find it disconcerting that after any one of my polygraphs, we were told never to discuss or debate the procedure and keep it to ourselves. Just another ploy to keep their secrets from being revealed and defeated. As far as pissing off polygraphers, everyone needs a hobby. Most of the senior members of this board have been quoted one time or another at various polygraph association meetings around the country. Proof that they fear and dislike anything having to do with this website.
Regards ...