The original post in this message thread was deleted by the person who posted it, along with a follow-up post. The full text of both messages, which have been exposed as forgeries, has been reposted in reply #5 below. -- AntiPolygraph.org Administrator
I don't think it's fair that you blame George for failing your poly. If you would have read the TLBTLD (which I highly doubt you did) you would have observed that there are other types of countermeasures that can be used. For instance mental and tongue biting which can't be detected if done properly. Though your lack of research on the subject made you shoot yourself in the foot. This is a free service I suggest you actually read the TLBTLD next time, not just the posts on this site.
Anxiety
Hmmmmm, something smells fishy here........
let me guess maybe usarmyofficer2004@dod.gov?
maybe I am wrong but something still smells fishy :-/
I agree with nunyun. My first response was "well, is usarmyofficer sure he wasn't offered a job as a polygrapher?"
Either way, he hasn't learned much in the art of concealment (if these posts are indeed legit). I'm sure it wouldn't be hard for somebody in the polygraph community to ID him based on his two posts. Not good chances for the PD job if they find out.
Not sure what this statement means:
QuoteHell, I was shocked when I passed when he asked whether I ever transported drugs.
but a drug runner is not something I want in an Army Officer or a cop
Within a half hour after usarmyofficer2004 made his initial post, I contacted him by AOL messenger to discuss his experience. Here are some observations:
- Although usarmyofficer2004 states here that he "was not going to admit to" using countermeasures, he posted details here that, if true, would enable the DEA to easily identify him. I pointed this out to him and suggested it might be prudent to delete his post. He replied, "u know what the fuck are they going to do, I am disqualified anyways leave it bro."
- I asked usarmyofficer2004 why, upon seeing a pad on the seat of the polygraph chair, he chose to employ the anal sphincter contraction as a polygraph countermeasure. He replied, "I have been practicing for 2 months, I didnt know what else to do." When I asked whether he was not then aware of other countermeasures, he replied, "I forgot man, my first one, I was anxious as hell" (emphasis added). Yet later, he posted to this message thread that countermeasures had worked for him "last week with the LAPD."
- In his initial post, usarmyofficer uses the expression, "DEA polygraph out of Los Angeles" to refer to the polygraph unit of the Drug Enforcement Agency's Los Angeles Field Division (http://www.usdoj.gov/dea/pubs/states/la.html). It seems unusual that an outsider would use such jargon.
- usarmyofficer2004 implies that in his putative LAPD polygraph examination, he lied about having "ever transported drugs." But again, he has posted details that, if true, would easily enable the LAPD to identify him.
- usarmyofficer2004 wrote to me, "you know, I am going to put myself through fucken poly school and try to learn about this dumb bullshit. I did alot of research today. there is this one school in Los Angeles. www.themayogroup.net I am going to learn and go back to the DEA and tell that dumb ass he is full of shit. the guy that runs the school he suppose to be the best in the feds."
The polygraph school to which usarmyofficer2004 refers is the Strategic International Institute of Polygraphy (http://www.themayogroup.net/serv05.htm) operated by retired DEA polygrapher Hector G. Berrellez. It is unclear how usarmyofficer2004 got the notion that Mr. Berrellez is "suppose [sic] to be the best in the feds." It is also unclear on what basis usarmyofficer2004 may believe that going to Mr. Berrellez's school will enable him to tell "that dumb ass" (i.e., his supposed DEA polygrapher) that he is "full of shit."
- In his posts here, usarmyofficer2004 mis-spelled "damn" as "damm." He also made this spelling mistake in his AOL Messenger chat with me. Of the more than 15,000 posts on this message board, only two others include this mis-spelling. One of these is from registered user sherpolygraph (http://antipolygraph.org/cgi-bin/forums/YaBB.pl?board=;action=usersrecentposts;username=sherpolygraph). Interestingly, sherpolygraph, like usarmyofficer2004, also posted to this message board warning that, "there is a famous countermeasure anal sphincter pad that detects such a movement or any movement." In addition, the Sher Polygraph Service (http://www.sherpolygraph.com) website includes a page of links (http://www.sherpolygraph.com/index_003.htm). This page has only four links. One of them is to Mr. Berrellez's website.
- Sher Polygraph Service's Contact Us (http://www.sherpolygraph.com/index_004.htm) page includes three office addresses, one of which is:
San Bernardino Area Office
1814 Commercenter St.
San Bernardino, Ca 92408
This same address is listed on Mr. Berrellez's website (http://www.themayogroup.net/new_page_5.htm).
Caveat lector.
Doesn't surprise me the least bit. The post didn't make much sense, it is also unlikely that one would have a polygraph with the L.A.P.D., and the very next week with D.E.A. (possible but not likley considering the length of a B.I.). The grammar just holds true to the reality that polygraphers really don't do their homework. (Nice try on the scare tactic though).
Anxiety
"usarmyofficer2004" has chosen to delete his posts to this thread. But here is what he posted, for the benefit of any who missed it. His first post was on 15 January 2005 at 1:25 A.M.:
QuoteDang Georgie,
The damm thing you teaching us not working. I screwed myself listening to this countermeasure business. 10 years of US Army experience is worth nothing now.
Took the darn DEA polygraph. Tried to do the thing you taught us but one thing dude, these law enforcement people got smart. They have stuff to detect us doing countermeasure. They now put a stupid pad on their polygraph seats.
DEA polygraph out of Los Angeles said I was trying to screw the test which I was but I was not going to admit to it. I just thank him and walked out. Longest day of my life.
My suggestion to all you that is taking poly's in the future, watch to see if they put that pad on the damm chair. If they do, dont do stuff.
I am done ranting and raving, got to find out what the hell to do now.
And his second post was on 15 January 2005 at 3:32 P.M.:
QuoteAnxietyguy,
You right. I should not blame george. His method did work for me when I took the polygraph last week with the LAPD.
I think the feds are more efficient. I honestly think those polygraph examiner at the LAPD are boneheads. I think my examiner was new to the division. I dont think he was a cop but a civilian examiner.
I passed the lapd polygraph with flying colors. Hell, I was shocked when I passed when he asked whether I ever transported drugs.
If DEA dont take me, atleast lapd will.
Not only did usarmyofficer2004 (http://antipolygraph.org/cgi-bin/forums/YaBB.pl?action=viewprofile;username=usarmyofficer2004) delete both of his posts here, but the website of Sher Polygraph Service has simultaneously disappeared:
http://www.sherpolygraph.com
I think this confirms that usarmyofficer2004 and sherpolygraph (http://antipolygraph.org/cgi-bin/forums/YaBB.pl?action=viewprofile;username=sherpolygraph) are very likely one and the same.
For those who didn't see it, the homepage of Sher Polygraph Service's website is still available in Google's cache:
http://216.239.59.104/search?q=cache:rBBcuieSPFwJ:www.sherpolygraph.com/&hl=en
The main text of this page was as follows:
QuotePRIVATE INVESTIGATIONS:
We have investigators on staff that conducts investigations that includes but not limited to: Missing Persons, Infidelity, Criminal, and Pre-employment Background Investigations.
Our chief private investigator, James M. Martinez, PI# 24170 has extensive private investigations experience. Mr. Martinez served as a military police officer for the United States Army. Mr. Martinez was deployed as a military police officer in support of Operation Iraqi Freedom which helped liberated Iraq. Mr. Martinez is also a reserve police officer with the El Centro, Ca Police Department.
Please call or e-mail us if you have any questions pertaining to either our polygraph or investigation services.
Sher Polygraph Service's primary contact information was:
QuoteMailing Address
PO BOX 312
Orange, Ca 92856
Contact Number: (415)505-0857
Fax number:(866)675-5533
E-Mail: Sherpolygraph@aol.com
Some pages from the Sher Polygraph website are still available on-line:
http://www.sherpolygraph.com/index_002.htm
http://www.sherpolygraph.com/index_003.htm
http://www.sherpolygraph.com/index_004.htm
An earlier cached version of (http://www.sherpolygraph.com/index_002.htm) that is still available in Yahoo's cache (http://216.109.117.135/search/cache?p=%22sher+polygraph%22&sm=Yahoo%21+Search&toggle=1&ei=UTF-8&u=www.sherpolygraph.com/index_002.htm&w=%22sher+polygraph%22&d=6B4D2979FD&icp=1&.intl=us) provides the following information, which is not included in the current version:
QuoteMembers of our dedicated polygraph examiners were trained at the Strategic Training Academy. The academy is accredited by the National Polygraph Association. Our chief examiner Joseph S. Sher has a Bachelors of Science in Criminal Justice Administration and a Master of Arts in Leadership. Mr. Sher is also a veteran of the United States Marine Corps. During his tour as a U.S. Marine, Mr. Sher performed duties as a military law enforcement officer, marksmanship instructor, and electrical equipment repair specialists. Mr. Sher also has experience in Federal Law Enforcement. Mr. Sher brings a diverse background to the polygraph field.
Many of the other polygraph examiners on staff come from the corporate, government, and private sector.
George those links you listed are all dead.
I wonder what Mr. Sher is afraid of that he had to take his website down? Maybe he feels this may discredit his business he has going? Not surprised by these antics because after all, the name of the game is tricks when it comes to polygraphy is it not? Hopefully the real Mr. Sher will post here and not use one of his many aliases to give us an explanation.
Anxiety
You're right. My web browser was loading them from its disk cache. If anyone would like to receive copies (I have saved them all), e-mail me and I'll forward them.
It's worth noting that sherpolygraph/usarmyofficer2004 is not the first polygrapher to forge posts on this message board. Other examples include:
- PolySucks/Cancerman (https://antipolygraph.org/forum/index.php?topic=1717.msg13115#msg13115), who posted deliberately misleading countermeasure tips;
- Policeman (https://antipolygraph.org/forum/index.php?topic=1614.msg12711#msg12711), who pretended to be a law enforcement applicant who had had a very positive polygraph experience;
- RETAO (https://antipolygraph.org/forum/index.php?topic=1116.msg8481#msg8481), who masqueraded as a convicted sex offender;
- nopoly/POLYSCORE (https://antipolygraph.org/forum/index.php?topic=1908.msg14264#msg14264), who also masqueraded as a convicted sex offender.
It's examiners like usarmyofficer who give us all a bad name. What a disgrace....but to be fair, I think there are also an equal number of anti-poly folks out there who have forged posts.
There are bad apples on both sides of the fence.
Quote from: Ray on Jan 21, 2005, 08:19 PMbut to be fair, I think there are also an equal number of anti-poly folks out there who have forged posts.
Did they forge a post in support of the polygraph??
Quote
There are bad apples on both sides of the fence.
Now that I can agree with.
I just can't stand a system that indiscriminitly crushes good apples along with the bad.
There are bad apples on both sides of the fence
There are good apples-truthful people
There are bad apples-liars
There are rotten apples-polygraphers
Anxiety
I can live with pro-poly individuals attempting to fool people on this site, because it is expected and goes hand in hand with what they do on a daily basis.
What I can't live with is a "professional examiner" whose expertise is relied upon to make career decisions not being able to properly spell DAMN! I would love to see how he spells dumb ::)
In all seriousness they deceive people for a living what do you expect?
By the way, George excellent job at investigating this.
QuoteDid they forge a post in support of the polygraph??
No Jeff, they forge a post which would support the anti-polygraph position.
Anxiety and Dimas - Thanks for jumping in with your generalized, personal attacks.
Quote from: Ray on Jan 22, 2005, 01:41 AM
No Jeff, they forge a post which would support the anti-polygraph position.
ummm... who is "they"?
It looks to me that you are not reading this properly and perhaps need to read it again to understand the post.
Quote from: Ray on Jan 22, 2005, 01:41 AM
Anxiety and Dimas - Thanks for jumping in with your generalized, personal attacks.
My attack was not generalized, as it is pretty hard to make a generalized/personal attack. It was directed from A to B with a specific criticism of the person's spelling ability.
Yes, I did attack this person and would do it again and again.
Why? Simple, if someone in this law enforcement field considers himself enough of an educated professional to decide the fate of applicants/parolees/criminals through their "intense training and knowledge of human physiology" then I would hope that they were at least smart enough to properly spell
DAMN; a word that is used very regularly in America.
From your post it appears that you have read my posts before and if you had bothered to actually understand what you have read you would have realized that I am both for and against the use of polygraphs and have often stated how valuable they are as an investigative/interrogation tool in LE, but a person's life should not be decided solely on the results of the poly.
Therefore, I am merely attacking this individual for his incompetence and not because he is a polygrapher.
Quote from: Ray on Jan 22, 2005, 01:41 AM
No Jeff, they forge a post which would support the anti-polygraph position.
Why would somebody against the polygraph forge a post being against the polygraph? There is enough truthful evidence against the polygraph that there would be no need to forge it.
Quote from: Ray on Jan 22, 2005, 01:41 AM
Anxiety and Dimas - Thanks for jumping in with your generalized, personal attacks.
My post was not personalized, rather directed toward all polygraphers so don't take it too personal I dislike all of you equally.