My daughter has made an outcry of sexual abuse perpetrated by her father. While he was guilty of domestic violence against us, I did not know of the sexual abuse until after I had fled the situation when she made an outcry at a drs. visit. She had shown signs that indicated something might have happened, but nothing concrete until the dr. appt. She has been in therapy and all therapy is consistent with her disclosure of abuse. Her story has not changed this whole time.
Her father has denied the abuse and took a polygraph, which he passed. Unfortunately, polygraphs are admissible in the state where it occurred, and she will never see justice served for what he did to her. Also, it may affect custody, as he tries to claim I coached her to invent and lie.
It is overwhelmingly distressing to me that so much validity is given tot he polygraph in law enforcement. Can anyone give me some statistics and information on the ability of sex offenders to pass a polygraph??
Note that although polygraph "evidence" may be admissible in the state in question (New Mexico?), that doesn't necessarily mean that a jury would find it convincing, especially if expert testimony on the unreliability of polygraphy were presented.
Although I am not aware of any studies specifically on the abilities of sex offenders to pass the polygraph, in the only available peer-reviewed research on polygraph countermeasures, some 50% of examinees were successful in beating the polygraph after receiving a maximum of 30 minutes of instruction. A criminal preparing to pass a polygraph examination about his crime is likely to devote considerably more time to preparing him- or herself.
A brief explanation of how anyone can beat the polygraph is provided on the AntiPolygraph.org home page (http://antipolygraph.org) and a fuller explanation is available in our e-book, The Lie Behind the Lie Detector (http://antipolygraph.org/lie-behind-the-lie-detector.pdf).
George,
Thank you for your response. My problem is that because the polygraph is admissible in the state the crime occurred in, law enforcement will not even file charges since he passed the polygraph. There is no outstanding physical evidence, as my daughter waited until we had been residing in another state for 2 months before she felt safe enough to disclose the sexual abuse. Any physical evidence that would have been there was non existent, as we had been safe in another state and in accessible to him for a while. Although I can recall her complaints of pain, irritation, times of redness, etc., there is no documentation to support it. I agonize over my misinterpretation of the signs daily.
Now I am forced to obey court order to send them for visitation over Christmas. My daughter has been throwing up daily since the court decision. Supposedly, (in the eyes of the court) he will be "supervised" by relatives during this time. I agonize for my daughter, but if I violate court order I could lose them in the permanent custody hearing and he could have daily access to her.
It does not help matters to know that he is military and becasue of his job field he has received training in how to handle interrogations. I do not know if lie detectors was part of that training, but it makes you wonder.
I am appreciating the information I am finding on this site.
Thanks again.
My condolences to what your daughter (and by extension you) must be going through. My heart goes out to you both. This situation illustrates the problems polygraphs can cause when relied on as indicators of the truth (whcih they do poorly). Now your husband (whom for this dicussion I will presume is guilty) is de facto exonerated by the police becase he was able to fool their machine.
There are many other cases where people are wrongly accused of lieing because of their inability or integrity or naivity in not trying to fool the machine.
In your daughter's case, it seems as if the police are using your ex husbands "passed" polygraph as an excuse not to investigate a case where little or no physical evidence will be found. That is unfortunate.
The allegations being made here are reprehensible. From the police's perspective, your husband passed his polygraph. Therefore he must be innocent.
It is sad, but there probably really are a number of cases where children can be manipulated into making false allegations. For those accused who truly are innocent and resort in a polygraph to 'prove' their innocence my heart also goes out to. Those poor folks have an equal chance at 'failing' their polygraph as your husband did at passing his. Perhaps those truly innocent have an even greater chance at failure since they are probably clueless as to countermeasures.
I hope your daughter remains safe during the holidays. Please teach her to be strong and assertive. If she is old enough to use a cell phone you may want to send one with her.
My heart goes out to you and your daughter if this is indeed the case of what occured.
Unfortunately, you cannot truly lay the blame on the police. They did what they could. With the absence of any physical eveidence they resorted to the only other alternative, the Polygraph. The polygraph also cleared your husband. This really has nothing to do with the polygraph being accepted in a court of law, it has everything to do with the DA not being able to prosecute this case with absolutely NO EVIDENCE. Without any evidence there is NOTHING that the police can do. In today's society it has become way too common for women to falsly cry out rape or sexual assault. This has in turn made both LE and the public sceptical every time one of these allegation is made. Scepticism combined with lack of evidence will usually result in a man going free for this crime.
There is only one thing that you can truly do in this matter and that is to provide your daughter all the support she needs along with counseling to assist her in coping with this traumatic situation.
Thank you for your comments. If I have not clarified previously, I would like to emphasize that I am not the one that made the initial sexual abuse report. It was made by a dr. due to my daughter's assertions of abuse during the exam. She received an internal swab exam for the first time and the dr. asked her if she had ever had anything put in her like that before and she said, "Yes, my Daddy's fingers."
For those that are suspicious, trust me, the last thing I ever wanted to believe was that my estranged husband was capable of such a thing. There is plenmty of evidence from her therapy, prior too her outcry, and afterwards that acts as supporting evidence to her claim. In addition to this fact, her father has received training through the military on how to handle interrogations.
Also, I must add that I do understand that the police have to be able to have adequate evidence. So I must tell you that we were int he state where the crime occurred and I talked with the detective working my daughter's case. I offered to have her interview my daughter (whom she had never met or talked to) and she declined. They insinuated that the taped interview was leading, which was prepostrous. I watched the tape and the interviewer asked her first thing if she knew why she was there to talk with them and she said, "Because my daddy did things to hurt me." However, I requested that they do another forensic nterview while we were in the state, but the detective (who must request it for it to be done) refused to do this. So, you tell me if they honestly are looking for evidence or if they have made up their minds without really looking for it. If they wanted to they could have requested her medical records, where they would have seen that she was taken in for numerous drs. appts for unexplained itching and redness. She was never determined to have a yeast infection or a UTI, etc. I just missed the signs at the time as to what was happening to her. The problem is that the police are basing the validity of this case solely on the results of a polygraph. I fully understand that my husband can be a charming, convincing, seemingly wonderful guy. After all, I married him. Do they honestly think I would have married someone I thought was capable of violent and disturbing behavior???
It is extremely frustrating. Through my search for information on this subject I have found that most states are now relying on polygraph tests to monitor convicted sex offenders on parole. How scary is that??
I find people's attitude towards the victims of domestic violence very frustrating. You are often put into a position of having to defend yourself. The "why didn't you leave?" or "why didn't you report it?" and then the "Did you document the dates when the abuse occurred?"
So, the answer to #1 is we were afraid to leave. Statistically, most women that are killed due to domestic violence are not killed while they are living with the abuser. Most of them are killed after they have separated from the abuser and tried to free themselves from the abuse they suffered. #2 We don't report for many reasons, but primary it is because of a sense of love and loyalty towards our abuser. Like the Nazis did to the POWs, it is very hard when an abuser isn't torturing you 24/7. A lot of the time he can be such a charming and wonderful person. During the "honeymoon phase" he is the ideal man...the man you married. #3 We don't document because we do not want to believe it will happen again. Each episode is going to be the last time. Why would you want to keep a record of the worst moments in your life. You would rather forget about them and let yourself believe that it is not going to happen again. But then again you have the problem of people believing him when you do come forward with the truth of the abuse adn treating you like a vindictive ex trying to taint this wonderful man's reputation (because again most abusers statistically do not show abusive behavior outside the home).
As to sexual abuse, if I had discovered it while residing with him in the home, people would have interrogated me as to why I didn't see it sooner and surely I must have known something. Then I am in the predicament since I did see that this man was unhealthy for my children and myself to be around and fled, but did not find out about the sexual abuse until after we had been far away for a long enough period of time for my child to feel safe...the validity of the truth is questioned because we are separated. Therefore, since we are separated then it must be that I put my daughter up to the allegations to try to exact revenge on my ex.
It is a no win situation.
QuoteIt is extremely frustrating. Through my search for information on this subject I have found that most states are now relying on polygraph tests to monitor convicted sex offenders on parole. How scary is that??
Pretty scary if one is wrongly convicted or forced to take a polygraph to 'prove' one's innocence.
But I guess with your husband;s background he wasn't 'scared' at all to take his polygraph since he may have known how to beat them already.
Polygraphs are little more than toys for lazy beurocrats that give them an excuse to check the box on a form that they were predisopsed to check. Unfortunately in this case they were predisposed to not fully investigating your husband.
I hope your situation with your children improves and that your daughter can recover from this abuse.
Quote from: Jeffery on Dec 15, 2004, 09:15 PM
Polygraphs are little more than toys for lazy beurocrats that give them an excuse to check the box on a form that they were predisopsed to check. Unfortunately in this case they were predisposed to not fully investigating your husband.
I really have a problem with this statement. As a LE officer for anyone to say that we are not doing our jobs. First, I repeat without any PHYSICAL evidence there is nothing that can be done. Second, the polygraph is merely a tool used to "assist" us when all other means are exhausted. Third, simply because he passed the poly doesn't mean that he was deemed innocent, it simply means that there is NO PROOF!
Short of an admission there is nothing that can be done in the absence of concrete evidence.
Once again, I truly am sorry for anyone who is a victim of abuse, but in the system we live in we do our best with what we have. The idea of a child molester being let go is bothersome to all of us, but
Everyone is innocent until proven guilty. If we can't prove him guilty then there is nothing we can do.
Dimas,
Respectfully, I think you're mistaken when you say that without physical evidence, nothing can be done. The originator of this message thread pointed out two things that investigators could have done but failed to do:
1) interview the alleged victim;
2) request the alleged victim's medical files.
I think you're also mistaken when you characterize the polygraph as "merely a tool used to 'assist' us when all other means are exhausted." The polygraph is often used before all other means are exhausted, as in the present case. In another case (https://antipolygraph.org/forum/index.php?topic=2103.msg15069#msg15069) about which I recently posted, Navy investigators closed a murder investigation based on the results of a polygraph "test" and failed to conduct any meaningful investigation into salient details of the allegations that could have been checked.
The polygraph is not "merely a tool." Unfortunately, investigators who use the polygraph tend to attach to it a diagnostic value that it simply does not have. The polygraph may well be useful as an interrogational prop (with subjects who don't realize that it's a fraud), but the "test" results themselves are about as meaningful as tea leaf readings. Unfortunately, they are often accorded undue weight by investigators who ought to know better.
QuoteThird, simply because he passed the poly doesn't mean that he was deemed innocent, it simply means that there is NO PROOF!
And if he had "failed" the poly would there then have been proof? Would he then be deemed guilty?
QuotePolygraphs are little more than toys for lazy beurocrats that give them an excuse to check the box on a form that they were predisopsed to check. Unfortunately in this case they were predisposed to not fully investigating your husband.
I really have a problem with this statement. As a LE officer for anyone to say that we are not doing our jobs. First, I repeat without any PHYSICAL evidence there is nothing that can be done. Second, the polygraph is merely a tool used to "assist" us when all other means are exhausted.
I apoligize if that remark offends you. Allow me to recharacterize that statement.
Polygraphs are little more than toys for exhausted and tool-less beurocrats that give them institutionally accepted evidence to "assist" them in checking the box on a form that they were predisopsed to check. Unfortunately in this case they were probably too happy to close a case where no physical evidence existed (or would have been too much work to find).
Thanks for all of the comments. Especially those of support and information. This is a most frustrating time for me and I am finding that although the polygraph has been scientifically disproven, it is still heavily relied upon by law enforcement. It is senseless.
George,
I think you are comparing apples and oranges. first, off the use of a NAVY investigation versus a state/local PD investigation is completely different. The rights that people have in the NAVY vs. the general public are different. Both you and I know that.
Second, you refer to the alleged victim not being interviewed by the detective. Believe it or not this is not necessary, simply because she was already interviewed by someone else and a tape was given to the detective.
Third, you mention the medical records, yet the original poster points out that there was NO PHYSICAL evidence. The actual allegations were made months after the alleged abuse occured. What exactly are you hoping the medical files to prove or assist with?
George, you are a very smart man, don't let your dislike of the polygraph cloud your judgement.
Jeffrey,
With all due respect get your head out of your ass. Obviously you are not in LE, so you are talking about a subject that you are ignorant of. Are you even aware of how many ex-spouses use children to get back at their ex's? Haven't you seen those breaking 60 minutes news stories that recount events in which after a few minutes of coaching children are convinced that they were abused or molested?
Here is a tip, before you open your mouth on a subject you know nothing about, make an attempt to educate yourself because if not you risk making an ass of yourself. I worked with sexual predators/offenders prior to making my lateral over to LE. I more than anyone know how disgusting and revolting these people are. I have first hand seen the damage these people do to their victims and the family of the victim.
I also know what kind of damage a false accusation can have on a person's life. That is why it is so imperative that police tread softly when investigating these types of cases. For you to simply say a detective would be too lazy to investigate this is foolish. Look at the totality of what has been written. There is NO EVIDENCE to move on. Have you ever thought to consider that perhaps the Polygraph was brought in to see if perhaps they could get a confession?
Granted there still are some detectives out there that believe everything a polygrapher tells them, I truly doubt there are any out there who would not make sure they did everything they could to ensure that a child molester was removed from society or one that never takes the best interest of a child into consideration first.
I must also remind ALL of you that in these cases it is not only the police who get involved and investigate, but also the state Child Protective Services investigators. There was more to this than simply the polygraph.
dimas,
I think my comparison to the Navy case (https://antipolygraph.org/forum/index.php?topic=2103.msg15069#msg15069) was indeed apt. It wasn't my intention to compare the relative strength of the unexploited investigative leads available in these two cases. (In the Navy case, it is pretty clear that the polygraph was used as a pretext for prematurely closing an investigation, and I'm not arguing that this is necessarily the case here.) Rather, it was my purpose to point out that in both cases, the polygraph was relied on before all other investigative means were exhausted. The legal protections enjoyed by those who are subject to military law versus those who are not is irrelevant to this point. You had suggested that the polygraph is used only as a tool of last resort. I think it's clear that this is not always the case.
The reason I believe it would have been appropriate for investigators to conduct a new interview with the alleged victim is that they had expressed dissatisfaction with the way the taped interview was conducted. According to savemydaughter, "[t]hey insinuated that the taped interview was leading."
The reason I believe a review of the alleged victim's medical file could have been helpful is that it might have confirmed whether or not the daughter's symptoms were consistent with the allegation of digital penetration. Did these symptoms ever occur at times when the father was away from home? (As a member of the armed forces, he may have had periods of temporary duty at other locations.)
I am not suggesting that information gleaned from the above two investigative steps alone would or could have produced enough evidence to bring charges. But it seems to me that such information might have advanced the investigation and could have been useful in planning the polygraph interrogation of the alleged perpetrator.
Looking forward, if this alleged sexual abuse were to recur over the holidays, what advice would you give to savemydaughter? What sort of physical evidence might there be? What steps could the mother and daughter take to preserve it?
Dimas-
Having one's head up one's ass is like being a cop. Surrounded by crap all the time. :D
Yes I am aware that the accusations could be false. Yes I am aware that it happens and the accusations could be devasting to the suspect if they indeed are false.
That is why it is terrible that the polygraph could incorrectly 'convict' a suspect. It is also sad when an incorrect polygraph is the final piece of information used to close a case on a guilty perv.
My comments on the polygraph being used were intended more in general terms and not at specific cops who use them.
In this example we only know the details as relayed by the mother. Assuming they are true, in this case, the use of the ploygraph did not serve the interests of justice, and indeed may have thwarted them.
Hey George,
Maybe you taught a molester how to use counter measures to pass his poly..????
Good job George !!!!!!!!!!!!!
Willy,
It is entirely possible that savemydaughter's husband learned how to pass a polygraph "test" from AntiPolygraph.org. Anyone who researches the polygraph on-line is sure to find this website.
AntiPolygraph.org makes no apologies for making such information available. It is necessary for providing truthful persons with a means of protecting themselves against the random error associated with an invalid procedure that is wrongly called a "test." I have explained the ethical considerations involved in "A Response to Paul M. Menges Regarding the Ethical Considerations of Providing Polygraph Countermeasures to the Public." (https://antipolygraph.org/forum/index.php?topic=966.msg7147#msg7147) If you disagree with the points I raise there, feel free to post counterarguments there.
Since polygraph "testing" has no scientific basis to begin with and is vulnerable to simple countermeasures that polygraphers cannot reliably detect, why should any investigator worthy of the name rely on polygraph chart readings?
While it is frustrating that there are so many sites dedicated to providing tips on how to beat a polygraph, this site is more dedicated to exposing the fact that there is no scientific validity to the polygraph. Personally, I know my estranged husband received training in how to handle interrogations and if he were to have researched how to beat a polygraph on the internet, he would have found about 50 pages on the search engines full of sites that would tell him how to do so.
Furthermore, there was indeed a CPS investigation. They were forced by law to term the case as "unable to determine" due to the lack of physical evidence. Howver, it has been the CPS worker's personal admonition to me that she believes without a doubt that my daughter has been sexually abused by her father, she is just unable to prove it. Her therapy that occurred before and after her outcry also points to the truthfulness of her allegations. In addition, I would like to have it pointed out (if I have not previously done so) that it was her father's suggestion that he take a polygraph...not LE. This in and of itself makes me suspicious.
Now, on a bit more personal note. I fully realize that there are ex spouses that coach their children into sexual abuse allegations, but I personally cannot fathom why anyone would do that. The day that my daughter made her first outcry at the dr. was the most gut wrenching day of my life. I functioned through it as a shell. I was a body going through the motions necessary to handle the situation. I fought back the overwhelming urge to vomit or break down into a puddle of tears for each remaining second of the day. Oddly enough, my initial reaction was not to go kill him. My initial reaction was to hold myself together and do whatever I needed to do to help my daughter to try to heal. Please, for those that are skeptics, do not be so brazenly callous as to assume that most outcries of sexual abuse from children of divorced or estranged parents are false. Women, such as myself, that lived with their children through years of domestic violence are conditioned right along with their children not to rock the boat or do anything that would incur his wrath. It is only natural that if such atrocities as sexual abuse were occuring that the child would truly be unable to reveal the abuse while living in a violent home. They are paralyzed by fear. Once they are in a place where they feel safe (such as several states away from their abuser), they will begin to disclose all that took place. Why would any parent want to make a false allegation??? I know it happens, but I do not understand it.
Quote from: willy on Dec 19, 2004, 06:22 PMHey George,
Maybe you taught a molester how to use counter measures to pass his poly..????
Good job George !!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ok, let me clarify this once and for all!
Blaming George or this site for a child molester pass a polygraph is just like blaming the movie HEAT for teaching someone how to rob a bank. The argument is lacking simply because there are many other factors involved.
1. Other sources that would teach one how to rob a bank (other movies, books, TV shows etc.
2. Along the same lines this is not the only site that teaches one how to attempt to deceive a polygrapher.
3. Once again we must also attach blame to those that give the polygraph so much credit, so as to believe that when one passes a polygraph he is innocent.
Willy, if you have something of substance to say please do so, but to simply come out and act like an ass really does nothing but make people aware of the fact that you are indeed an ASS.
savemydaughter,
Once again, I must clearly state that I truly do feel for you and your daughter. I was in no way implying that you are lying. I simply like to state the entire case for people to be able to form an opinion that is derived from educated responses.
There are a few issues that I kind of need to know in order to offer more detailed advice. This is something I do not expect you to post, but instead ask that it be sent confidentially to me here at this site.
1. Age of your daughter at the time of the alleged abuse.
2. Age of your daughter now.
3. State in which the abuse occured and whether the CPS agency was a County, City or State entity.
I must also tell you that I am no lawyer, so my advice can only be taken at face value.
If you have already contacted a lawyer that works in the State in which this occured and there was nothing he could do, then there is probably nothing I could help with either.
If your daugther is going to go see him again all I can tell you is to:
1. Have her keep a journal and tell her it is ok to yell out for help if need be. Most child molesters do so because their victims will not fight back, my experience has been that they are for the most part cowards.
2. Immediately notify another adult if the abuse occurs. Tell her to call the COPS! Physical evidence is hard to deny and the sooner that she can be evaluated by a medical professional the better.
3. Get her a little voice recorder. This can help in one of two ways. 1. audio proof of the father attempting to hurt her. 2. The father may in fact see the recorder and get spooked. 3. This may also be a negative factor in that the father may see this and get angry and physically act out.
Once again there are more or less things that can be done depending on the age of your daughter. Once again I wish you luck in this matter.
dimas,
Thanks for the post. I am a bit technologically challenged, so I am not quite sure how to send you an e-mail message through the site.
However, my daughter is elementary school aged and after going over her medical records, I have reason to believe the abuse was occurring for at least 2 years, which would make her around 4 or 5 at the time. This is when she began to complain of irritation, and also when she expressed some knowledge of oral sex, which I unfortunately dismissed. I now know through education and therapy that children will often begin to disclose in a variety of ways, sometimes telling a story that will only have a shred of truth to it (such as inappropriate sexual knowledge) to try to cry out to the adults around them that something bad is happening to them. This was also around the same time that I began working outside the home, which would affirm my daughter's statements that the abuse usually occurred when I was at work. (I worked evenings.) Unfortunately for my daughter, she had to basically hit me between the eyes with the truth before I would see what had been happening to her. I agonize over my missing the signs beforehand.
Thank you for the advice you gave me aboiut what to do when she is forced into visitations. I appreciate that.
Sincerely,
savemydaughter