well i have an up coming polygraph in a few weeks down from today. All i keep hearing is how easy it is to decieve this instrument, i have read your ebook, about 5 times and i actually ordered a few books off line to familiarize myself with this process.
my question is , if i am not sure of the question as being either a CQ, RQ or IRQ type of question, and i only react to the only CQ's that i know for a fact is a CQ, could i still pass the test? just by that one question.
I am just so lost in this process, everytime i think i have an understanding something comes up and says that i should be truthful and believe that the polygrapher wouldnt do me wrong, and then there is another part of me that knows this atrocity and proctect myself from it,
any suggestions.
I dont know enough to answer your questions, but I had a horrible time with a recent poly.
My only advice to anyone, is when you have the pre exam Q&A session, dont give your examiner enough info to beat you on the head with, thats what I did.
Not saying to lie, just dont expand on the questions to much, because the examiner can use any extra info to draw conclusions about you that you may not want.
did you pass or fail, if you dont mind me asking?
if you don't know what the question is do not react in anyway.
You are correct in only reacting to a question if you know for sure that it is CQ.
Yes, I past mine and it does work...
so basically if i react to just one CQ i will pass . and dont show reactions to the RQ?
so if the CQ is a "yes" or "no" i should show a reaction no matter what i answer that question with?
i dont mean to sound redundant or stupid to this but i have to break this down barney style,
so if i am only able to distinguish one CQ out of the whole 2-3 hours of "polygrapher and me" time, they wont find that odd at all. and i will still be alright?
so what is the best sure fire way of deciphering what a CQ is vs. a RQ, just seems like there is too much room for error, and if i misinterpret a CQ to a RQ then i am screwed?
also what methods did you use, and would it be acceptable to just stick to one breathing technique, i have a feeling that i am going to be so nervous that i am going to forget how to use these, any advise?
thank you so much for your response i really apreciate it. that tongue technique sounds interesting, ill have to give it a shot, but one thing i am set on is that what i did in the past i accept, i admitted to the BI'r, i too dont wan to be a statistic to this system. i am especially nervous becuase obviously there is so much riding on this. i really appreciate all your advise , thank you so much
Quote from: calicoast on Dec 09, 2004, 12:07 AMdid you pass or fail, if you dont mind me asking?
I was told the best i could hope for was for it to be labeled inconclusive by HQ.
yeah everything is starting to make scense, i guess it is just the fear of the unknown playing a part.
i have been diligently reading antipoly posts and pro poly posts to kinda get an idea. and they are 100% conclusive that if you try you will be caught and you will fail.
but it is all starting to make scense alot more now that i think about it.
so if i am accurate about this, a control question is just a question that has nothing to do with the job at hand or something so broad with a large lapse of time, and thus i should react to it to take the heat off the relevant question that is the reason that i am taking the exam in the first place.
so these would be CQ?
1. other than what we have talked about did you .......?
2. have you ever been embarassed about anything in your past that would hurt you if it ever came to light?
3. do you plan on liying to me during the coarse of this exam.
just thinking about what could possibly be asked as far as those questions.
thank you for your insight , it is greatly appriciated
little by little i keep reading away at the TBTLD book, i have read that book over and over, i think what i really need to start doing though is focusing on just chapters 3 + 4.
thank you so much nunyun i really appreciate your help, i took have spent so long building a career that i will not let be tarnished by an unreliable or credible test. my theory is when polygraphs are admissible in court, ill do away with CM's thanks again
calicoast,
As nunyun correctly pointed out, the fact that a question is prefaced with, "Other than what you told me..." is no clear indication of whether it is a relevant or "control" question.
However, the question, "Do you plan on lying to me during the course of this examination?" is not an irrelevant question. It usually serves as a "sacrifice" relevant question (that is, one that is not scored). "Sacrifice" relevant questions are discussed in Chapter 3 of The Lie Behind the Lie Detector (http://antipolygraph.org/the-lie-behind-the-lie-detector.pdf) (at p. 95 of the 3rd edition).
In addition, a question about driving while under the influence of alcohol has actually been used as a probable-lie "control" question by federal agencies (and, I suspect, many state and local ones). I was very surprised that this would be the case, but it's true: it's one of the "control" questions that was included in my FBI pre-employment polygraph "test" (http://antipolygraph.org/statements/statement-003.shtml) in 1995. The FBI and other federal agencies have actually assumed that even persons they would want to hire have driven while drunk and will lie about it during a pre-employment polygraph examination.
Interestingly, this question is not included in the list of "control" (or "comparison") questions provided in DoDPI's Law Enforcement Pre-Employment Test (http://antipolygraph.org/documents/dodpi-lepet.pdf) dated January 2002 (see p. 17), and it is to be hoped that it has been discarded by federal agencies. But I suspect that even if it has been abandoned by some or all federal agencies, it is still being used as a "control" question elsewhere.
For more on "control" questions and how to recognize them, review pp. 96-105 and 139-143 of the 3rd edition of TLBTLD.
yes, yes sacrafice I remember now, either way I did not want him to react to it I just did not get my terminolgy straight......
nunyun,
The correct spelling is "censored." Unfortunately, the free message board software that we're using does not include a spell checker. :(
By the way, your links had some typos, too. Message boards that censor posts that provide to much truth about polygraphy include:
http://www.polygraphplace.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/Ultimate.cgi
http://www.911jobforums.com/vB/
and also:
http://forums.realpolice.net
yes I am laughing at myself and your perfection ;D
thanks George we'll talk soon...
thank you both so much, i think with alittle reading and perserverance i will get it, thank you again
I failed a polygraph in an eastern state (state agency) about 10 months ago. I will be taking another poly here soon, this time in western state (AZ). I have to tell them if I have done one before, do they share information like this with one another being that far away?
probably because you were fingerprinted with the East coast agency and that is now a record with NCIC and will show up when they run your FBI check.
On the same note, Unlike the Feds I don't think you would be AS predjudiced against just because you failed with one agnency and are now trying with another.
Is there a list of LEO pre-employment questions ???
do a search of poly cvsa experiences there are several post of what people were asked. also check out chapter 3 and 4 of TLBTLD.
i wrote earlier about not passing a poly (in this column), part of the reason was becuase i was worried about it and told them EVERYTHING, even things God probably didnt already know. Now i am not so paranoid about taking it again this time. Becuase of this, some of my answers will be different on the poly than the first one, will this matter. (will they question my truthfulness)
Quote from: CommonOne on Dec 13, 2004, 06:04 AMi wrote earlier about not passing a poly (in this column), part of the reason was becuase i was worried about it and told them EVERYTHING, even things God probably didnt already know. Now i am not so paranoid about taking it again this time. Becuase of this, some of my answers will be different on the poly than the first one, will this matter. (will they question my truthfulness)
stand by the same answers and just try and use the countermeasures.
well thank you all for you advise much appreciated. I just have one question left to answer. /well a couple more questions ;)
the tongue bitting
1. how effective is that method?
2. how to know if you are applying it correctly?
3. where to bite down on?
4. do you apply any other techniques to this method or just strickly bite the tongue?
I have well prepared myself for polygraphs, i am more confident in not becoming a false positive. Thank you for this book, used for the right reasons it can be a benifical tool. much appreciated.
Quote from: calicoast on Jan 10, 2005, 08:44 PMwell thank you all for you advise much appreciated. I just have one question left to answer. /well a couple more questions ;)
the tongue bitting
1. how effective is that method?
2. how to know if you are applying it correctly?
3. where to bite down on?
4. do you apply any other techniques to this method or just strickly bite the tongue?
I have well prepared myself for polygraphs, i am more confident in not becoming a false positive. Thank you for this book, used for the right reasons it can be a benifical tool. much appreciated.
answers in my humble opinion that I have used and it worked
1. Very effective (worked like a charm)
2. The examiner will stop and ask or say "you showed a strong reaction to this question what were you thinking about (on the question you bit youor tongue on)
3. I bit on the tip at the front with almost no jaw movement to the point where I was physically in pain
4. I did nothing but tongue biting and just found a happy thought and relaxed. I did not worry about breathing as there has been much talk about what is too much or not enough breathing and many have been accused of CM's while taking the test due to irregular breathing.
Good luck.....
calicoast,
1) In a laboratory study by Charles R. Honts and collaborators, about half of test subjects who employed tongue-biting after receiving a maximum of 30 minutes of instruction passed the polygraph when falsely denying having committed a mock crime. Polygraphers were unable to detect the countermeasure. See the bibliography of The Lie Behind the Lie Detector (http://antipolygraph.org/lie-behind-the-lie-detector.pdf) for a citation.
2) The tongue bite should be hard enough to produce pain, but not so hard as to cause injury. Additionally, it should not be visible to the polygrapher. You can practice in front of a mirror to see if it's detectable.
3) To minimize jaw movement, it might be easier to bite down on the side of your tongue rather than on the tip.
4) You may add a breathing manipulation to the tongue-biting. However, it's possible that biting your tongue will result in an associated change in your breathing without your having to actively think about it.
alright, thank you for the input. I really appreciate it.
I just want to make sure that if i attempt this method that i am doing it right. right now i found out that i have a little sharp point on the back of my tooth around where the wisdom tooth area is, i have found that i can slide my tongue into that part of my mouth with out any movement detection what so ever, i bite down to the point where i can feel my eyes start to water if i continue biting. So i am hoping that i am off to the right start and that i am applying this method correctly.
however i think that it is really sad that i have to resort to this method, what ever happened to the saying "the truth will set you free"? thank you for your advise nunyun, and george you both have been a great help, i appreciate it very much.
So what happened, Calicoast? Did you take the poly yet? It's been weeks since you were supposed to take it. We're all in suspense here. If you felt the need to use countermeasures on your first poly, which questions did you actually lie to? These bearers of gloom and doom have apparently gotten to you so you felt you must mess with the polygraph exam to pass, so there must be some serious skeletons rattling around in your closet that you wanted to hide.
If you did well, you would have been on here to gloat and brag, I'm sure. If you passed, you, George and Company would be on here claiming that the countermeasures you planned on using worked. And of course if you failed, George and Company would be telling you that you just did it all wrong. After all, they are exactly like the staunch pro-polygraph people--if the process didn't work, they say it was just done wrong, whereas if it appeared to work, they raise a big fuss over it like relatives of a mother who has just given birth. All very amusing to me, you see. So which is it, Calicoast?
You are doing very well at racking up those post to reach a new level responding to everything you can. ;) Fact is not everyone will come back if they passed, as the site gave the info, they used it, passed and moved on. Case in point a good friend had a poly the other day for an agency. He read this site I talked to him about what the examiner would do and he followed the advice given. He called today to state the exam went exactly as posted in TLBTLD and as I told him it would. He passed....nothing more nothing less. He is a good kid who is well aware of false +'s and also had a mutual friend who was a victim of this. We are not drug dealers nor had any deep dark secrets to hide but when you see one friend get screwed you learn from his mistake so that it does not happen to you.
Anal, I am not looking to get into it with you. I see your point and actually don't mind your profession. As Dimas stated the Poly is a good tool I just can't live with the percentage of false + any more than arresting a slug when I am not sure if he really did the crime without a doubt in my mind otherwise known as PC which I gather in my stop and further INVESTIGATION before I hook him up.
Either way keep posting you'll be a "very senior user" in no time ;D
Nunyun, you need to read some of my other posts if you really believe all that false positive b.s.
So, other than being totally freaked out by what he read on this site and what you told him, was there a relative issue that your friend needed to lie about and attempt to overcome through countermeasures?
See, here's the plain truth: If your friend had nothing to hide on the relevant issues, then chances are over 90% that he would pass, regardless of whether he used those silly countermeasures or not. It's like taking a handful of vitamins when you already are getting a good diet--it does nothing for you exept maybe a placebo effect of some sort. AND, if you aren't getting a decent diet, vitamins won't make up the difference. Sounds to me like your friend was living on a decent diet of integrity and therefore passed the exam, which had nothing to do with his trying to use countermeasures that, even if they worked at all, would require much training on the machine to use effectively.
And no, I don't need to "get into it" with anyone. After awhile I will tire of the tiring people on this site and I'll leave you all to continue dispensing your placebo to people who are unnecessarily worried about a process that really works. I've provided some excellent field study research in other posts, and I'm tired of cutting and pasting it, so go look for it yourself.
Oh, and I'm not interesting in becoming a senior user. Sounds like a geriatric addict. ;)
Very well, point taken, I don't care as I am all done with Poly's and already fighting the good fight in the ghetto.
The fact of the matter is that CM's can influence a poly. Weather they are done correctly or not could be argued many times over, I just will hold firm in the fact that there are still too many times that good people are being falsley accused of lying when they are not and we need all the help out here we can get.
I have said before and will say again that although I deplore those who use this information to beat the system I think that poly's should be used in conjunction with a good thorough (sp?) BI, not as a sole determining factor in the hiring process.
Believe it or not we are on the same side I just disagree with SOME of your points but I know you are doing the best you can with what you have and for every false +. You do grab 10 who should not be coming to my back while drugs or cash are sitting on the table waiting to be bagged up for evidence.
10-7 :-X
Nunyun, I acknowledge the relative merits of your last post when compared with some of your previous posts. Thank you. Of course I would never advocate using a polygraph as the sole determinant of assessing any job applicant. It's a great tool, and highly effective, but it is not perfect. I do think that you and many other fearful worriers concentrate too much on the very rare false positive in polygraph, though. If you still have doubts about that, please refer to my post in response to very senior user Gino Scalabrini--I've now cut and paste it into several different threads on this forum, and I've grown weary of doing so. It's got some great information. If you feel too lazy to look for it, let me know, and I'll store up enough motivation to cut and paste it ONE MORE TIME. :)
I am not a book smart college cronie just a front line Marine, I leave all the education to the college freaks I am too busy on the front lines But I will take your word for it......
By the way "chances are over 90%" is that my friend would pass if he just responded truthfully to the relevant questions what happens if he was in that 10% and was a false +? ahhh what the hell screw him, he is just another statistic.......
Yes, and what if I win the lottery?
What if I die in a plane crash.?
What if I find out I have a rich uncle somewhere whom I knew nothing about, and he left me 20 million dollars?
What if they stop making the Fear Factor series?
What if a black female wins the next presidential election? ;D
The point is, the odds are so small that playing with your own head--or possibly being disqualified when a polygrapher discovers your manipulations--just doesn't make attempted countermeaures worth worrying about.
Quote from: AnalSphincter on Feb 12, 2005, 12:25 PMYes, and what if I win the lottery?
What if I die in a plane crash.?
What if I find out I have a rich uncle somewhere whom I knew nothing about, and he left me 20 million dollars?
What if they stop making the Fear Factor series?
What if a black female wins the next presidential election? ;D
.
before you die let's become buddy's so I can get some of that cash to buy my new H2.
Nothing would bum me out more in life if they stop making Fear Factor, I love watching dumb people do stupid things for pocket change, The women are fun to watch also (know what I mean?)
I would not have a problem if Condi ran for President, she would have my vote. I would rather her than Hillary.
Back on subject I just hate the percentage so we will have to agree to disagree....... 8)
No problem, Nunyun. I like you most of all the people who have responded to me on this forum. We would be friends if we worked together. Warm fuzzies to you, buddy.
I don't care what your personal beliefs I will be there when rounds are down range watching your six, besides all these riviting discussions I just want to live to get home to my wife and kid at the end of the night when I push my black and white back to that parking spot..........
Your job is too often unappreciated and usually underpaid. I appreciate what you are doing and hope you have a safe, satisfying career and always make it home for the people in your life. :)
PAY? hell I would do this for free if they would stop shoving that check down my throat ;D
:)
So, back to Calicoast. What happened?