I took the FBI poly for a support position today that I applied for 8 mos ago and they said I failed!! I was told I was lying on a few of the CI questions! WTF? I wasn't nervous at all but I was getting pissed off when the examiner kept asking me if there was "something I wanted to tell him". I have friends in the FBI and when I told them I failed the CI portion of the poly they were blown away. I'm an 18 yr Army Intel Officer in the reserves and I've had a TS/SCI for over 17 yrs. The poly guy kept coming back to the "passing information to foreign nationals" question and I kept telling them I don't even KNOW any foreign nationals. My FBI buddies said I'll most likely be called back for a retest but at this point I want to tell 'em to SHOVE IT! I've served the Army fro 18 yrs, have a TS/SCI clearance for work & the reserves and spent a total of 2 yrs in Iraq for Desert Storm then the GWOT and the FBI Is questioning me based on a poly??!! I'm BLOWN AWAY!! I don't even WANT their stupid job now!!
Q: How bad will it be for me and my TS/SCI is I tell them I won't submit to a restest? THey left a bad taste in my mouth and I want no part of 'em.
To the best of my knowledge, the FBI typically does not offer a "re-test" unless the applicant requests it. If, however, the Bureau were to offe you a re-test without your requesting it, I doubt that your refusal would cause any more problems when your periodic review (PR) for your security clearance comes up than the initial "failure" would. Moreover, the results of "retests" are almost always the same as the initial "test." Nonetheless, because your polygrapher's accusation of deception is part of your FBI HQ file (a permanent record) and will be seen by CCF when adjudicating your PR, it would be prudent to send the FBI a letter (by certified, return receipt mail) contesting their polygrapher's opinion.Your letter will also become part of your FBI HQ file.
If it is any consolation, you are not the only Army veteran with a TS clearance to be falsely accused of deception by an FBI polygrapher with regard to counterintelligence questions. See my and Chris Stein's statements on the "Personal Statements" page:
http://antipolygraph.org/statements.shtml
If you would be interested in adding a statement of your own, send an e-mail to info@antipolygraph.org.
Thanks for the info George. I wish I paid more attention to this site BEFORE my poly... but I'm so angry the way things went down with the FBI I wouldn't work there now anyway. I just cannot calm down. I have a MS in CJ with a minor is CompSci, held a TS forever, been in Army Intel almost 17 yrs and I've even recently won a bronze star from Iraq during Operation Enduring Freedom!!!!! ... and someone that has known me for a few hours is going to question my honor, interity and fitness for duty based not on evidence or an investigation.. no based on a POLY!! Makes me boil. All I wanted to do is use my CJ and IT skills to serve my country. There is no way I'll go back for a restest and suffer the humilation I suffered that day all over again. They believe in the poly as a pre-employment tool and I got shafted b/c of it. I wanted the IA job badly but sorry FBI but it's your loss. :(
Yep, join the 'false positives' club.
FBI personnel who pass polys will say they work. Will anyone who has passed it agree it doesn't ? Moreover, since the ones that pass go on to FBI careers, who's gonna dispute the FBI?
Kinda ironic; you have a long & distinguished background and hold a MS in CJ, yet the guy that poly'd you and ruined your FBI chances only needed a GED, 10wks of poly school, and a few hrs alone w/you to do it. How's that for adding insult to injury?
Polys are CRAP. George's poly-verbiage is more PC, but I like mine better... ;D
Incase you haven't spent much time at this site, George has a petition here that can use some esignature-support.
Dear NoWayMan,
The system is counting on you to give up and lick your wounds. Please, at a minimum, write the agency and contest their findings. I know you do not wish employment with them but request another polygraph examination.
Even if they fail to display fidelity, bravery, and integrity, show them that you have it. The FBI has alot of old dogs in it and your appeal letter DOES MATTER. You tie up resources and the amount of appeal letters are tallied up and presented in reports and studies. If everyone appealed their findings, the numbers would be staggering. Sooner or later, someone will notice.
Let them know that you will keep appealing up the chain of command. Spend some time and a few dollars on registered mail and keep someone in Washington, D.C., aware that you are not going away quietly.
Regards.
Quote from: Fair Chance on Sep 04, 2004, 11:42 PMDear NoWayMan,
The system is counting on you to give up and lick your wounds. Please, at a minimum, write the agency and contest their findings. I know you do not wish employment with them but request another polygraph examination.
Even if they fail to display fidelity, bravery, and integrity, show them that you have it. The FBI has alot of old dogs in it and your appeal letter DOES MATTER. You tie up resources and the amount of appeal letters are tallied up and presented in reports and studies. If everyone appealed their findings, the numbers would be staggering. Sooner or later, someone will notice.
Let them know that you will keep appealing up the chain of command. Spend some time and a few dollars on registered mail and keep someone in Washington, D.C., aware that you are not going away quietly.
Regards.
Yea... I'm stubborn so I won't just give up & roll over. I figure I have a few weeks before I get my rejection letter and I want to take some time and formalize a decent follow up letter to the FBI. If I wrote it now my anger would seep through and I want them to know
1) We
ALL know polys are crap... so why use 'em?
2) The only one lying in the poly office that day was the FBI poly examiner
3) They missed out on me and I was very qualified for the position but more importantly they will continue to miss out on good, qualified people
4) I have pride and would never work for them now after the BS way I was treated.
If anyone has any sample letters to the FBI please post the link.... I appreciate it!
I had the same experience not too long ago. I work in corrections and as such, have to have a clean background.
I took a FBI polygrapy for an Investigative Specialist position and got a letter stating that my polygraph did not fall within FBI parameters.
The polygraph examiner asked me after the exam which questions that I thought I had problems with. I was so nervous that I told her that I had no idea.
I did not lie at all!! I am just as upset as you are in this regard.
I called the applicant specialist and he had me send a letter about the polygraph, an appeal letter if you will. I went into some detail about what occurred, and I have yet to get a reply/retest back.
I know how skewed polygraphs can be, how unreliable they can be. And I know that I am no liar.
I will be fighting this for as long as it takes.
NoWayMan,
I would suggest avoiding too many details in your letter of appeal. Once you get their rejection letter, send a short letter maintaining your innocence and requesting a re-test. A few sentences will be fine.
Although your points are all valid, an appeal letter is not the time or place for them. The FBI knows these "tests" are flawed.
If the appeal process bears no fruit (which it usually does not), you can look into other options, like joining the ongoing lawsuit being brought by others in your position.
For now, your best bet is to send a short, to the point letter (via certified mail) making the following two points
1) You did not lie
2) You want a re-test
This is not the time or place to attack the agency, the examiner, or the inherent unreliability of polygraphy itself. The key here is to have something in your file indicating that you did not walk away when confronted with these false allegations
I really am sorry to hear about your unfortunate ordeal with the Polygraph. I, unfortunately, also fell into a similar predicament as you. Every poly I have taken I have received an inconclusive on. While I will still maintain that the POLY is a good tool at getting unfit candidates to admit to things that they have done that normally would not come up on a background check, I whole-heartedly believe that it should neve be used as the sole reason to disqualify an individual.
Fortunately, getting the "inconclusive" result seemed to follow me for a while and branded me as an "unfit" candidate with other agencies I had applied with. Amazingly people on oral boards seem to equate inconclusive with FAIL ::). I did mention fortunately, and this is because in the end I ended up for the better. Instead of having started a career with any of those agencies, I finally found a very good job with an employer that recognizes my talents and KNOWS the person that I am based on my work history and the word of my former employers, not the judgement of a man and his machine who have only known me for the better of 2 or 3 hours.
Contest it, make sure it is on record and don't take it personal. You, your family, friends, employers (past and present) know what kind of person you really are and in the end that is what matters the most.
Good luck
To make a long story short, I am now a (former) FBI intel analyst candidate who was told to expect a disqualification letter following my polygraph test. Once I have received the letter I will post more details. Suffice it to say, however, that I got utterly fucked over in much the same manner as the other posters on this thread.
yeah...many agencies dont care about the FBI's poly. While it may go into your FBI record/file it will not go into your other security records (for example if you work for Secret Service and then applied to FBI and failed the poly the FBI is not going to send a copy of that DQ letter to SS). When I applied to teh FBI I previoulsy had passed the SS poly but they had no idea about other peoples polys...the only way they will know is if I tell them.
Quote from: hanazono on Oct 11, 2004, 04:33 PMyeah...many agencies dont care about the FBI's poly. While it may go into your FBI record/file it will not go into your other security records (for example if you work for Secret Service and then applied to FBI and failed the poly the FBI is not going to send a copy of that DQ letter to SS). When I applied to teh FBI I previoulsy had passed the SS poly but they had no idea about other peoples polys...the only way they will know is if I tell them.
While the FBI may not take the initiative in forwarding your file to other agencies, when you apply for a security clearance (or periodic review, if you already have a clearance) with another agency, that agency will conduct, among other things, a National Agency Check. That check will reveal that you have an FBI HQ file, and that file will be requested. At this point, the failed polygraph may become an issue.
I would think it would become only an issue if the specifics were given such as asmissions to drug use, etc....and if the agency you were applying for required a poly. I doubt that after 5 years and there is some letter saying you took a poly and were not in parameters would matter. I took a poly with the SS and nobody wanted to see that file or my medical records with SS. So I guess if a guy applies to the FBI and fails the panel or written test then that will be requested too??? If any BI investigator came back to me and said whats with this FBI letter I would say "you tell me because I have no idea what "not within parameters mean". Well, doesnt matter to me...as long as I sent my letter not agreeing with the poly letter is good enough for me. I already have a clearance so I guess I will have to wait 5 years and find out...hmmm
The Army adjudicator who made the decision to revoke my security clearance thought that my having failed an FBI pre-employment polygraph five years earlier was significant, speculating (in writing) that I might be a spy or drug trafficker. For details, see "Too Hot of a Potato: A Citizen Soldier's Encounter With the Polygraph." (http://antipolygraph.org/statements/statement-003.shtml)
I agree that if there was some "report" in writing saying a guy was drug trafficker etc. But these standard letters do not give any specifics so........
Be aware that the HQ file includes esentially all documentation associated with one's application for employment. It's not just the standard form letter rejecting the candidate.
That said, alll my FBI polygraph report indicated was that the polygrapher believed I had answered all relevant questions deceptively. I made no damaging admissions regarding any of them (since I told the truth on all), and my file included my letter disputing the polygraph results. But it didn't matter.
I See....well I have know plenty of guys who failed the FBI poly and got jobs at Customs, SS, ATF, CIA and DIA. It seems it may be more damaging though if I were to apply to another job that required a poly. I really have no clue why I failed...
Hi All,
I too am a Gulf War 2 Vet, put my arse (as my British friends I worked with in Iraq liked to say) on the line many, many, many times... and the Fan Belt Inspectors had the gall to say I was being deceptive (results were officially labeled as non-favorable, although I was told the results were inconclusive). I spoke with the recruiter who knows me personally, and she was really ticked... and even told me this is why they are not admisable in court, because they just dont work. I also learned from her that she was really disappointed by this process because they lose a lot of really good applicants every year.
I have 10 years of military service... have a masters degree, am fluent in Chinese, and also work in the Intel. Field with the Navy, and most importantly, TOLD THE TRUTH! I truly believe our word is our bond, without it we have nothing. I have always told my supervisors ahead of time, "If I do something stupid or wrong, you'll hear about it first from me before anyone else, no matter how it makes me look." After reading this thread, I really am concerned about this. I tailored my education and career to work in Intel or Special Agent type jobs, and now, if I am reading correctly, might not be an option anymore. The polygrapher hounded me on the same questions... regarding foreign contacts. If anything, I was the guy at school and in the job to warn people to be careful who they associate with... especially at the school I graduated from, which had about 50% international students. The FBI also took issue with the fact I lived overseas a while... how else do they think a blond hair blue eyed guy is going to become fluent in Chinese? Certainly not in the United States. It seems the FBI has a real problem with anyone with any kind of foreign experience... I was invited to come back to a second interview because I was told my results were inconclusive. During the interview, the guy tried to rattle my cage, but it did not work. I am still in what I call "War Mode." If you are not trying to machine gun me, snipe me, drop artillary or mortor rounds on me, or trying to blow me up with an IED, I just dont get upset or "rattled." That seemed to irritate both polygraphers. At any rate, I was invited to come back for a second interview, but had the same inconclusive results. The second polygrapher actually lied to me... first he said my results were "Concrete, I was not telling the truth" then he later said my results were the same as last time... inconclusive... WTFO?
Question to you all, besides writing a letter disputing the polygraph, is there anything else I can do other than being ticked? Honestly, after this experience I have ZERO desire to want to work for the Fan Belt Inspectors, but don't want that to tarnish my record... I am in the application process with several other agencies, both LE and Intel., any advice how to proceed would be MUCH appreciated.
Sorry to hear of your experience with the Fumbling Bumbling Idiots. Not all Feebs are bad; but when, as an organization, they rely on a process as you describe, I personally can have no desire to work for them.
Have you read the two DoDPI manuals linked from the front of this web site? Take a look at those and see how closely your experience matched what is in those books. Then ask yourself how bad you still want to work for a government that uses such practices on honest, well meaning citizens?
Take your language skills, security experience and try and get a good job in corporate security or something in industry.
It's unfortunate that the FBI has to rely on a process like the polygraph to cover their backsides. The polygrapher you had probably was scared that you'd be the next Chinese mole in the Bureau, and didn't want his name in your file as the Polygrapher who approved you. No Polygrapher ever lost his job by giving out inconclusive results or falsely calling somebody a liar.
I'm sorry about your experience with them. But I'd write a letter and protest, then I'd walk away and not look back. There are other employers out there. Some people may view jobs in the Bureau as noble ways of serving ones country. Do you still feel that way after seeing how they operate?
Also read George's book. It explains the concept of Relevant versus Control questions. You probably showed a minimal or non reaction to the Control question, which screwed up the rest of the test for you.
Unfortunately, after failing the SS polygraph (for what, I don't know, other than the polygrapher really got to me and I ended up pretty heated) I was turned down for anything other than the written test by two local police departments. When it got to the oral interview both times, I was told basically to get lost.
After that, and looking around and seeing that all of the police departments in my area used the polygraph, I decided my best option was to choose a different career field. This was about a year ago.
Dont feel bad, it seems as if serving your country is not enough. These agencies say they want prior service, but they do not want experience or dedication. I really do not know what they want. I was going to apply after I obtain my degree, but I see there is no chance I will get in no matter what amount of education or experience I have with the military and law enforcement. Never let them see you sweat.
Hi All,
Well, just thought I would post a little update on what inconclusive results might mean for any of us... or results not within acceptable parameters... this research does not apply to deception indicated results...
I have several friends who are Special Agents with several different agencies... who know my situation... and of course, know me and what kind of person I am. Fortunately for me (and those of you who have had similar results) the end is not near regarding other Federal LE/SA jobs. I have been told by numerous sources (that are also recruiters/polygraphers) for respective agencies, that many agencies hold FBI results in low regards and these types of results will not necessarily disbar us from other LE/SA employment. In matter of fact, one of my good friends who I was in combat with and is an SA told me to apply to his agency because his agency has had so many bad experiences with the FBI it would make me look good...
Other agencies realize people who acquire language skills and certain skill sets they say they want do not learn those things in the US... and will have probably required foreign travel... regardless of where that may have been. I think in short, this shows that the FBI has a real problem with anyone who has any type of foreign contact in the past or present... god help you if you are a first generation American and everyone in your family is from Europe or even worse... an Asian country. For an agency that claims to be progressive it seems they have not changed all that much in there way of thinking... but being most of their polygraphers have 20 or more years of service... should not surprise anyone.
I still want to serve our country... and will endeavor to do so. The 9/11 attacks have taught us two things we must always remember... to persevere and be committed. Don't let a single agency get you down because of their obviously inaccurate results, especially when you know you told the truth.
bobvs,
It is to be hoped that it is indeed the case that many agencies now hold FBI polygraph results in low regard they most assuredly deserve. But these agencies need to understand that their own polygraph results have not a shred more validity than the FBI's. Their polygraphers are trained at the same school (DoDPI (http://www.dodpoly.army.mil)) and use the same, invalid technique (specifically, the DoDPI Law Enforcement Pre-Employment Test (http://antipolygraph.org/documents/dodpi-lepet.pdf)), which is not to say that there is a better polygraph school or a more valid polygraph screening format. Polygraph screening is pseudoscientific quackery, regardless of the operator's training or the technique used.
In the interest of national security, public safety, and the equitable treatment of those who would serve, polygraph screening must be abolished across the board.
In the interest of national security, public safety, and the equitable treatment of those who would serve, polygraph screening must be abolished across the board.
*****************
George,
I could not agree more. I sincerely, as well as many others I am sure, appreciate your input regarding events that have the ability to have a profound impact on not just our lives, but that of our nation. I agree 100% with you that poly's should be abolished across the board. Thanks for providing a forum where we can discuss these issues... now, only if we could get the Presidents ear...
bobvs,
Thanks for sharing this info.
QuoteWell, just thought I would post a little update on what inconclusive results might mean for any of us... or results not within acceptable parameters... this research does not apply to deception indicated results...
One bit of clarification. To my knowledge, the FBI has not been known to send letters specifically stating that deception was indicated. Anyone who does not pass simply receives a letter informing them that test results "were not within acceptable parameters" (this includes those who later find out through FOIA that their charts were scored as indicating deception).
The only other letter I know of that is routinely sent out to those are not selected opens by stating that the applicant was disqualified for "withholding information" and that the test scores were also not "within acceptable parameters. These letters are often seen where a polygrapher inflates and or fabricates admissions.
One bit of clarification. To my knowledge, the FBI has not been known to send letters specifically stating that deception was indicated. Anyone who does not pass simply receives a letter informing them that test results "were not within acceptable parameters" (this includes those who later find out through FOIA that their charts were scored as indicating deception).
******
Gino,
Just thought I would offer some clarification regarding my situation...
I have received two letters from them, one that first stated non-favorable and the second, not within acceptable parameters. I spoke with a friend who also applied and he showed me his letter that said, deception indicated (two years ago). I spoke with the recruiter at the FBI, who is also a friend of mine, who told me my results were inconclusive and that if my results indicated deceptive my letter would say so and I would not be offered a re-test. The recruiter told me that the letter(s) they send would not specifically state "inconclusive." I have actually been offered another opportunity to retake the test a third time... which I have declined for many reasons, but that is a topic for another time.
bobvs,
QuoteI have received two letters from them, one that first stated non-favorable and the second, not within acceptable parameters. I spoke with a friend who also applied and he showed me his letter that said, deception indicated (two years ago). I spoke with the recruiter at the FBI, who is also a friend of mine, who told me my results were inconclusive and that if my results indicated deceptive my letter would say so and I would not be offered a re-test. The recruiter told me that the letter(s) they send would not specifically state "inconclusive." I have actually been offered another opportunity to retake the test a third time... which I have declined for many reasons, but that is a topic for another time.
Thanks for this info. This is the first I have heard of FBI letters indicating deception indicated. Perhaps George can comment here...
This is also the first I have heard of FBI disqualification letters stating that deception was indicated. I have heard of such letters making reference to disqualifying admissions, however.
Wow,
Unless a written statement was obtained admitting a significant admission or ommission, I have never heard of a letter stating an applicant was guilty of deception and removed from the application process by the polygraph in writing. This would open the FBI to direct court challange of using the polygraph exam as the "end all" for an employment decision (possibly slandering one's character).
BOBVS, could you possibly double check the exact wording used in the letter your referenced as being "deceptive"? Were there any more clarifications that admissions were made to any accusations during the interrogation.
Interesting.
Regards