I understand how to employ countermeasures to control questions, though I am unclear on how long to hold them.I hear that there is a 20-30 second gap between questions and was wondering do I hold the countermeasure for the whole 20-30 seconds, or just when I am answering yes or no to the control question. Also is it advisable to use a mental countermeasure at the same time as a physical countermeasure or just use one? Thanks for the help on my upcomming exam for employment.
You are right to ask "George or anyone", because just about anyone knows as much as George does. ;)
I-Smell-BS,
I take it your another angry polygraph examiner that is upset that George is exposing the "BS" of the polygraph exam.I forgot to include in my thread I am NOT seeking advice from pro-polygraphers.I have enough BS going on in my life having to submit to this coin flip of an exam.So the only BS I smell is you.
Anxiety,
According to Doug Williams' handbook, "How to Sting the Polygraph," your entire reaction to the control question shouldn't last more than about 9 seconds. Assuming 25 seconds between questions, you should start to react right after you answer the control question, and gradually increase the pucker and pnemo reaction to peak at no more than 4 1/2 seconds, then gradually decrease the reaction to finish at approx 9 seconds. After this, resume normal breathing, and totally relax until the next control question. I used this techique, and it worked like a champ. You have to practice this reaction if you want to pass the exam. The anal pucker should never exceed "half strength," at the peak of the reaction, because it really produces a large rise in your blood pressure. The breathing patterns also need to be subtle, and not obvious or overdone. I highly suggest reading Doug's handbook for all the details.
Good luck.
Kona
Anxietyguy,
If you have not already, I suggest that you download and read "TLBTLD" available for free here on this website. I too have read Doug Williams booklet "How to Sting the Polygraph", and in my opinion, find "TLBTLD" to be superior, and better written.
[You ask]
"Also is it advisable to use a mental countermeasure at the same time as a physical countermeasure or just use one?"
Personally, I feel that if you employed both mental and physical countermeasures simultaneously following a control question, would likely produce a significant reaction on the charts and cause the polygraph examiner to be suspicious of possible countermeasures. I would recommend that you err on the side of caution, and employ either mental or physical countermeasures, but not both.
I do believe Doug Williams booklet "How to Sting the Polygraph" to be accurate and effective. Having said that, it's strictly my opinion that "TLBTLD" is overall a better-written document.
Good luck with your forthcoming pre-employment polygraph exam. In addition, please consider posting your results following your polygraph experience.
False positive results are not uncommon.
Knowledge is power.
Triple x
And how did you do on your test Trip x?
Kona,
Thanks for the helpfull info I think I am going to purchase Doug's book.I have about a month I anticipate before the exam so I am getting as much info as possible.One more question,what breathing technique do u suggest using while employing the countermeasure?I will post updates the closer i get...thanks again.
anxietyguy,
As "triple x" mentioned, countermeasures are discussed in detail in The Lie Behind the Lie Detector (http://antipolygraph.org/lie-behind-the-lie-detector.pdf). (See Chapter 4.) We suggest using breathing countermeasures (which have the advantage that the respiratory tracings are the only ones that can be directly controlled) in addition to one (and only one) of the following: mental countermeasures, tongue-biting, or anal sphincter contraction. We suggest that these countermeasures be applied for 8-20 seconds, but no longer than the beginning of the asking of the next question.
Behavioral countermeasures are also important and are discussed at some length in Chapter 4.
Quote from: anxietyguy on Apr 21, 2004, 03:54 AMKona,
Thanks for the helpfull info I think I am going to purchase Doug's book.I have about a month I anticipate before the exam so I am getting as much info as possible.One more question,what breathing technique do u suggest using while employing the countermeasure?I will post updates the closer i get...thanks again.
Anxiety,
In Doug's pamphlet, he outlines 4 or 5 different breathing patterns, and shows what they should look like on the graph. It's kind of difficult to explain them to you without seeing visually what they should look like on the graph. One of the patterns is a series of 5 shallow breaths, each breath inhaling more than exhaling. On the last breath, you're supposed to inhale slightly more, exhale fully, then take two deep breaths. After the two deep breaths, you are supposed to resume normal breathing. Doug really hammers home that you must practice these patterns, and be very subtle. The pneumo tubes around your chest and abdomen measure very small changes in your breathing, so you have to be careful not to overdo it, and be obvious.
I agree that TLBLTD is a great book to read, and it's free, but Doug's 20 page handbook is written in layman's terms, very easy to comprehend, and is direct/to the point. I suggest that you read both!!
Good luck, and keep us informed.
Kona
Yes, you must hold it for the duration to ensure the countermeasure will be effective.
When I tried, it made my butt hurt, but I passed the test.
Good Luck!
I think PolySucks is right. It would be best to hold the countermeasure as long as possible during the pause between questions.
I held my Countermeasure for a full 15 seconds and when my XXX--three letter agency--polygrapher (silly him) looked at my results, he laughed and said that I was a "texbook" responder, whatever that means. Anyway, I passed ;D ;D
Others told me they did it for three or four seconds and they didn't even come close to passing their tests. :-[ :-[ The polygraph dude started yelling at them for not telling the truth!!! :o :o They told me that they weren't telling the whole truth either, oops.
"Bottom" line is, if you want to pass (especially if you're not really being truthful), you've got to ensure the countermeasure will work by doing it right. So, you've got to........Hold it Long, Hold it Strong!!! ;) ;)
Peace out!!!!!!
Cancerman
Quote from: Cancerman on Apr 22, 2004, 12:05 AMI think PolySucks is right. It would be best to hold the countermeasure as long as possible during the pause between questions.
I held my Countermeasure for a full 15 seconds and when my XXX--three letter agency--polygrapher (silly him) looked at my results, he laughed and said that I was a "texbook" responder, whatever that means. Anyway, I passed ;D ;D
Others told me they did it for three or four seconds and they didn't even come close to passing their tests. :-[ :-[ The polygraph dude started yelling at them for not telling the truth!!! :o :o They told me that they weren't telling the whole truth either, oops.
"Bottom" line is, if you want to pass (especially if you're not really being truthful), you've got to ensure the countermeasure will work by doing it right. So, you've got to........Hold it Long, Hold it Strong!!! ;) ;)
Peace out!!!!!!
Cancerman
Cancerman,
Uh, how is it you know multiple applicants that failed their test AND used CM's as you describe? ;D
-Marty
Marty--
We were all criminal justice majors (this may give me away) in college and we are still friends. A few of us decided to to apply to XXX together, and being that we hung out togther, we all knew that we had "issues." They had their polyraph test long before I did and they failed (they told me they were afraid of being caught so they only did the countermeasure ever so slightly and for a short duration). To ensure that I passed mine, I did the countermeasure thing with much energy and loooong duration (I was afraid of failing the test and not getting my dream job so I held mine Long and Strong--guess who is happy at work ;D). That silly polygraph fool never knew what hit him--"textbook" responder he said, HAHAHA!!!
Lesson be learned-- are you afraid of being caught or not getting your dream job? Then you know what you have to do..........Hold it Long, Hold it Strong!!!!
Good luck and beat the bastards!!!!!
Peace out,
Cancerman
Quote from: Cancerman on Apr 22, 2004, 01:41 AMWe were all criminal justice majors (this may give me away) in college and we are still friends. A few of us decided to to apply to XXX together, and being that we hung out togther, we all knew that we had "issues." They had their polyraph test long before I did and they failed (they told me they were afraid of being caught so they only did the countermeasure ever so slightly and for a short duration). To ensure that I passed mine, I did the countermeasure thing with much energy and loooong duration (I was afraid of failing the test and not getting my dream job so I held mine Long and Strong--guess who is happy at work ;D). That silly polygraph fool never knew what hit him--"textbook" responder he said, HAHAHA!!!
Lesson be learned-- are you afraid of being caught or not getting your dream job? Then you know what you have to do..........Hold it Long, Hold it Strong!!!!
Good luck and beat the bastards!!!!!
Peace out,
Cancerman
So tell me Cancerman, why would a group of guys with "issues" (stoners???) be in a criminal justice program together? While I think the polygraph has a large "woo-woo" aspect, do you feel at all guilty that you fraudulently obtained employment?
Though individuals respond in quite variable ways, the technique (long and strong) you describe would be unlikely to produce the kind of responses on controls described in Matte's work, the prinicipal "textbook" extant.
Further, the only time I'm aware polygraphers use descriptors such as "textbook responder" is in the conditioning phase prior to the test. They tend not to be very verbal unless they go into a confession/interrogation mode. Large agencies send their results to a QA review and they don't usually want to be too opinionated lest they be overturned due to suspected CMs.
And why did you say this? "They told me that they weren't telling the whole truth either, oops." After all, you knew in advance they had "issues." It sounds like an after the fact admission.
-Marty
Hey Marty,
Don't know who you are, but I appreciate that you are taking an interest in my situation. You aren't trying to drag this out so you can "out" me and my employment with my XXX lettered agency are you....hmmmmm
It's getting very late, but let me try to answer your questions before I zonk:
1. Q: So tell me Cancerman, why would a group of guys with "issues" (stoners) be in a criminal justice program together?
A. I never said my "issues" or my friends "issues" were that we were "stoners." Even if my friends and I did/did not use drugs, are you naive enough to imply that college students majoring in criminal justice would not be involved in drugs just because of the major? Obviously you haven't been to college, or if you did you never went to any parties and looked around (underaged drinking, "experimentation" with drugs, etc.)
2. Q. While I think the polygraph has a large "woo-woo" aspect, do you feel at all guilty that you fraudulently obtained employment?
A. No, not feeling quilty. Who said I gained fraudulent employment? I met all the requirements for employment, to include passing a polygraph.
3. Q. the technique (long and strong) you describe would be unlikely to produce the kind of responses on controls described in Matte's work, the prinicipal "textbook" extant.
A. Who ever said anythuing about Matte. I don't know who that is, and I don't care. I just know that my college friend told me what he was going to do and how he was going to do it. I just ensured that my actions would create a big unmistakable response.
4. Q. Further, the only time I'm aware polygraphers use descriptors such as "textbook responder" is in the conditioning phase prior to the test.
A. Does that mean you are a pissed off polygraph dude angry that I passed? I don't really know what a "textbook" responder is. I don't know what the conditioning phase is. I know only my experience, and my polygraph guy laughed and said I was "textbook." Whatever that meant, I didn't care....and I sure as hell wasn't about to ask him about it because all I wanted was out of his office!!!
5. Q. And why did you say this? "They told me that they weren't telling the whole truth either, oops." After all, you knew in advance they had "issues." It sounds like an after the fact admission.
A. Because going in to the exam my friends weren't fully decided if they were going to tell the whole truth or the partial truth and try to get away with it. Obviously, the partial truth didn't work!!! So it's either tell the whole truth and pass, or use a countermeaser to pass.
Me? I did my countermeasure Long and Strong and I have my job, my friends don't. And that is the only way I know that works.
MARTY (POLYMAN), don't be pissed off at me. I hope you were not the polydude that I duped!!!! I'm just trying to help out others on the proven way to use countermeasures. My method worked, my friends' didn't.
Lessoned be learned....if you're gonna use countermeasures do it right. So you gotta Do it Long, and Do it Strong!!!
Peace out,
Cancerman
The post made by "PolySucks" on 21 April at 20:37 hours and the post made by "Cancerman" at 21:35 hours (in addition to subsequent posts) originated from the same IP address, which resolves to "yongsan-cache.korea.army.mil." Yongsan Army Garrison (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/facility/yongsan.htm) in Korea hosts the 19th Military Police Battalion (Criminal Investigative Division) (http://8tharmy.korea.army.mil/19cid/default.htm), which has a polygraph section, and posts by "PolySucks" and "Cancerman" seem likely to be the fictional writings of a CID polygrapher.
Quote from: Cancerman on Apr 22, 2004, 05:32 AM2. Q. While I think the polygraph has a large "woo-woo" aspect, do you feel at all guilty that you fraudulently obtained employment?
A. No, not feeling quilty. Who said I gained fraudulent employment? I met all the requirements for employment, to include passing a polygraph.
ROFLMAO, Cancerman, I enjoy your posts! As for your gaining fraudulent employment, I am unaware of ANY agency that does not specify disqualifying criteria PRIOR to the polygraph. The polygraph is used only to [presumably] validate established employment criteria. Are you suggesting that your polygraph covered areas that were not disqualifying had you answered truthfully.?
-Marty
Quote from: Administrator on Apr 22, 2004, 05:56 AMThe post made by "PolySucks" on 21 April at 20:37 hours and the post made by "Cancerman" at 21:35 hours (in addition to subsequent posts) originated from the same IP address, which resolves to "yongsan-cache.korea.army.mil." Yongsan Army Garrison (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/facility/yongsan.htm) in Korea hosts the 19th Military Police Battalion (Criminal Investigative Division) (http://8tharmy.korea.army.mil/19cid/default.htm), which has a polygraph section, and posts by "PolySucks" and "Cancerman" seem likely to be the fictional writings of a CID polygrapher.
Do tell!
ROFLMAO!
You go boy!
-Marty
Although the polygraph community has not demonstrated that it has any reliable technique for the detection of countermeasures, there is an aphorism amongst polygraphers that, "if a reaction seems to good to be true, it probably is." That is, unusually strong reactions to "control" questions may be taken as an indication of attempted countermeasures.
PolySucks/Cancerman's posts urging readers to "Hold it Long, Hold it Strong!!!!" are apparently intended to increase the likelihood that anyone following this advice will be suspected of countermeasure use.
Now that I'm no longer on yongsan garrison, let's get something straight....
This is where you really went off the handle mr. masheke or however you spell your name.
I was more than willing to try to help others beat the poly--like I had, but you are wrong on multiple fronts:
You say that I'm a cid polygraph guy???
Nothing could be farther from from the truth. I am not involved in polgraph. In fact, I am not even in the military. The fact that you tried accused me of being a polygraph guy is the least of my worries. Do you know that there are nearly 40,000 military and civilian personnel stationed in Korea that are from the four services and other three lettered agencies???? The fact that you are a bit paranoid and pointed out yongsan garrison as the source of my posts is the onlly saving grace for me.....hello smart (paranoid) guy, I have never heard of college students having to take a polygraph to join the military!!!
Bit this is where you are really wrong and make me worry the most. It does not take much for a half assed government investigator to add 2+2 together...... After I posted on your site (thinking that I was safe with an anonymous post) you let others know that I was posting from yongsan garrison!!!!????
Hello!!!! I just told you that I had graduated from college and gotten a job with a xxx lettered agency. Let's see, there are only a few of us fron the xxx lettered agencies in Korea, and there are even less of us straight out of college serving in Korea. So what you really did was expose me and put me and my dream job at risk by exposing my location when I had thought that I was safe and anonymous on the net. Do you really expect others to post their polygraph experiences now that they know that you may exposed their locations and possibly put their jobs/careers at risk by you giving away their locations?????!!!!
I appreciate the fact that you may be a bit upset because you didn't employ the countermeasures correctly and failed your poly test, but don't try to ruin other peoples' careeers by exposing their locations and taking away any bit of anonymity that they may enjoy on the net. After all, if you exposed each and every poster's locations, how many people do you really expect to post on this site???!!!???
Is this what I get for sharing my experiences and hopefully helping others???? Okay then super sleuth, get a different job, because in your paranoid efforts to "expose" me, you really did expose me and my career.
I'd better get off the net before you really try to pinpoint my location and give me away to governement authoritities!!!!
Cancerman, aka PolySucks,
Nice attempt at damage control. ;D
I'm sure George appreciates your contribution to counter counter measures. :(
As for net privacy, do you really expect the site administrator not to notice when you post under multiple aliases to support your comments? The more you talk the more inconsistent your story is, but then you are an admitted liar. :D
-Marty
Cancerman,
You write, among other things:
QuoteI am not involved in polgraph [sic].
With that simple statement (and disregarding your typo), you have in fact confirmed that you are a polygrapher. It is the polygrapher's shibboleth to refer to polygraphy (or polygraph testing) simply as "polygraph." Virtually no one else uses the word "polygraph" in this way.
Cancerman,
If all that you say is true, can you explain to us why you posted under 'PolySucks' and then posted again as 'Cancerman,' this time agreeing with the bad advice provided by 'PolySucks' (yourself)? Are you going to deny that this looks very odd, or are you going to try and tell us that you have another 'friend' from XXX agency there in Korea with you that hates the poly as well?
QuoteSo what you really did was expose me and put me and my dream job at risk by exposing my location when I had thought that I was safe and anonymous on the net
I'm sorry asshole, anyone posting information here needs to understand the risk involved. I can remember several instances where I read a post giving away way too much information only to be followed by a post from George warning this poster that he/she is in danger of being identified. You're out of line accusing George of trying to expose people and put their jobs at risk. However, a polygrapher asshole trying to trick people up with bad information that doesn't have the sense to avoid posting from the office? Expose away, George.
Also Cancerman (or whoever you are),
I think I can safely assume that you are not in the intelligence community what-so-ever after stating you thought that going on the internet and posting by some fictitious name affords you anonymity. Also, did you not investigate this page before posting? Posted, by Mr. Maschke, at the top of every page is a huge warning stating ways to post on this site and remain anonymous through anonymous web proxys.
George did not put your job at risk. You yourself put your job at risk if what you are saying is true.
The fact you came back and posted your last discord which sounded like a teenager that was just "dissed" by some kid in the school yard makes me think you are not at all what you claim. If your story is legitimate, why would you come back and confirm you were fresh out of college and hired with a XXX agency, from yongsan garrison, state there are very few people like you there, not in the military, etc, etc. Something doesn't fit right with me.
I don't have any formal law enforcement, military or intelligence training but I can categorically say I think you are not even close to what or who you say you are. I think we are on the money by stating you are a polygrapher. Nice attempts as misdirection though! Is that the official response to this web page? Are you polygraphers admitting defeat and now taking to a last resort, misdirection and reverse psycology to regain the mistique that you require for the poly to "work"?
Yes, expose away George.
Quote from: Anonymous on Apr 22, 2004, 05:11 PMYou're out of line accusing George of trying to expose people and put their jobs at risk.
Actually, Cancerman was very much in line with his clear agenda. A failed one from his point of view. Not likely he will be bragging about this at the office.
-Marty
In honor of Earth Day, I would like to take this opportunity to thank George and all the reporters at the GRUDGE REPORT for their diligent efforts in bullshit production. Not only is bullshit a renewable source of energy, (methane gas), but it is a great natural fertilizer. The tree huggers of the world salute you! I would also like to give a special thanks to the leading bullshit producers this past year. Listed in order of production they are; George, Anonymous, and Triple X. Again, GRUDGE REPORT, thanks for all the bullshit.
QuoteI would also like to give a special thanks to the leading bullshit producers this past year. Listed in order of production they are; George, Anonymous, and Triple X
<award speech>Wow, I don't know what to say. I know I don't have a lot of time here, so... first I'd like to thank the little people out there - you know, the polygraph examiners - for fucking so many of us over and giving us this great topic to debate. Without you, this achievement wouldn't be possible. Next, I'd like to thank my fellow bullshit producers - George, Triple X and everyone else out there. To think - we started out just sitting in a chair with fucking wires practically hanging out of each major orafice (hmm, any research done there?) being told over and over 'I know you're not telling the truth here today' - but look at us now. I'm just so honored to receive this award.
Most importantly, I'd like to thank I-Smell-BS for recognizing my contribution. You know, you put so much effort into something and it often goes unnoticed. But I-Smell-BS, you took a chance and came though for me.
--- cue music ---
It looks like I'm out of time here. Thanks again to everyone, I'm truly honored by this recognition. I am exhilirated to know that the bullshit I've produced this year is making a difference in people's lives and I hope we all continue to make a difference. Good night and God bless
</award speech>--- cue a few tears, lift award to the audience ---
--- cue really hot woman escorting me off stage...---
---... and cue curtain ---
But seriously folks - is this all the examiner/pro-polygraph community has to offer to this debate? Is that it? To be perfectly honest, it's a little disappointing. Anyone? Anything?
I-Smell-Like-Bullshit,
Of all the posters on this board that you have to choose from, I'm flattered that you think of me...
You are obviously some bored individual, with few [if any] friends or a personal life. In addition, you possess a fixated fetish for insulting other people unjustly and without cause.
You try to bring attention upon yourself the only way you know how, by insulting other people and hoping to draw them into a pointless and childish argument.
Does your mommy know you visit and post on this message board.?
Shouldn't you be doing some homework or something...
Last but not least, I bet you can really "puff" on a flute in your high school marching band.
Your response is not required...!!
Triple x
Quote from: I-Smell-BS on Apr 22, 2004, 07:17 PMIn honor of Earth Day, I would like to take this opportunity to thank George and all the reporters at the GRUDGE REPORT for their diligent efforts in bullshit production. Not only is bullshit a renewable source of energy, (methane gas), but it is a great natural fertilizer. The tree huggers of the world salute you! I would also like to give a special thanks to the leading bullshit producers this past year. Listed in order of production they are; George, Anonymous, and Triple X. Again, GRUDGE REPORT, thanks for all the bullshit.
I see the shining stars of the polygraphy community still insist on demonstrating here what trustworthy, mature, empathic individuals they are.
If anyone deserves an award, Mr. BS, it's you and your fellow polygrapher posters. You remain "exhibit A" as to why no one should trust polygraphers, period. We really couldn't do it without you.
With warmest regards,
Skeptic
Clearever,
Did you ever make the decision to take the NSA poly,
after you got cleared with the other Intel agency ?
You know the risks involved, right ? I just had a chat,
with a couple of other TS/SCI non-poly cleared
co-workers, and surprisingly, they too knew about the
risks of the poly. They also agreed that it is a bunch of
crap, and that they would never take one. I informed
them of this site, as I do someone, almost on a daily
basis. I think, at least in the cleared community, that
people are starting to wise up. Unfortunately, I would
hazard a guess, that the Intel community will never
stop using the poly; they know, that they
"have you by the balls" - just like walking into the local
DMV. For the NSA poly unit, who knows who I am, there
was a "blue badger" at work, with his badge hanging
out - I laughed to myself, because it was like a big sign
around his neck saying, "I'm damaged goods". Hey,
are you guys going to be making anymore trips to
Safeway, or home ?
I know nothing about countermeasures...I know I want the job with the pd...and will soon be doing the background and poly along with physical.
I have nothing that should raise eyebrows or cause my blood pressure to rise...so I hope my job that I spent several years studying for wont be quashed by a poly..
Alice