I have a poly coming up within the next month. My problem is I have taken steroids in the past, and have already told the department I have not. I was advised there was no way I would get hired if I did not lie, so I need to get ready for the polygraph. I am about to read the online book from this site, but if anyone has any special tricks that work for them, it would be great. I have a good reputation with this organization, so would possibly be able to convince me even if the readings are a little shaky. Please give me some advice.
Quote from: Guest on Apr 08, 2004, 07:25 AMI have a poly coming up within the next month. My problem is I have taken steroids in the past, and have already told the department I have not. I was advised there was no way I would get hired if I did not lie, so I need to get ready for the polygraph. I am about to read the online book from this site, but if anyone has any special tricks that work for them, it would be great. I have a good reputation with this organization, so would possibly be able to convince me even if the readings are a little shaky. Please give me some advice.
Ladies and Gentlemen.
The quote above is the "bottom line" of exactly what this website is about. The losers who have made a life of posting here shroud themselves in righteousness indignation over the polygraph communities' "constant stream of victims." They rant on false positives and false negatives. They attack on grounds ranging from polygraph research, to countermeasures, to violation of rights to privacy.
But it is ALL a smokescreen...
It is in the last line of the paragraph above the truth most closely resides. These people intensely believe their "right to privacy" means they have an inherent right to lie, conceal, and deceive, and that the government, police, authorities, have no right to get to the truth under any circumstances or by any means. Truth is, with one notable exception, the anti-polygraph people on this site are dedicated to the elimination of any form of lie detection, present or future. In fact, the more promising a new technology or method, the more intensely these people fight.
The reason for this behavior is quite simple to understand once one stands back and looks at it in the light of day. Like the person quoted at the top of this message, these people NEED to lie, deceive, and conceal, to get what they want (jobs, property, access to victims in a myriad of forms). They strongly fear being caught in a lie then explode into volcanoes of righteous fury when they are in fact, caught. Like many others in our narcissistic society, these people have an "entitlement mentality." They childishly believe the advantages of life are due them and cannot handle the plain fact that one MUST PAY for the things one has done in life...
If you have done drugs, you DON'T get the job...
If you stole the money, you will LOSE the job...
If you molest kids again, you WILL go back to prison...
I make no apoligies for having dedicated my life to making sure society is protected from YOU.
Yes, over the years I have put many of YOU into prison, have kept many of YOU from getting assess to classified information, badges and guns, positions of trust, and...
The innocent who cannot otherwise defend themselves from YOU.
I am quite proud to be called your "enemy."
PDD=Fed...
PDD-Fag,
Why are you trying to act like you are some type of fake-ass crime fighter? Who are you protecting me from sitting in your little room, playing with some little machine that can obviously be beat. In your post you act as if you are doing me and the rest of the world a huge favor. I think we should give credit to the "real" crime fighters of the world like police-officers,deputies, correctional officers and Aqua-man. I bet you feel embarassed knowing that you have wasted your life making innocent people into liars. If you weren't scared that people could learn how to beat your lame machine, I don't think you would waste your time posting here. Please stop acting like you are a hero, you offend those that are. Go take a bullet protecting somebody's life or something and then come back and tell us what a hero you are. ;)
PDD-Fed,
If you are as smart as you would have yourself believe, why can't you take a look at the whole story "in the light of day" and admitt that not all antipoly people here are liers, rapists, theives or drugs users with something to hide. Or are you so far gone that after years of law enforcement, dealing with the scum of society day in and day out, you subconsciously project your paranoia that everyone who is not a cop must be a bad guy?
Remove those rose colored glasses they seem to hand all you polygraphers at graduation, take some of your own advise and subjectively and intelligently look and the overwhelming tones of antipoly posters here. To me there seems to be a consensus that the poly is denying quite a few people of their rights and dreams due to the high false positive failure rate.
Yes, yes there are people who are going to use the information contained within this site and it's posts to doop your machine and pass when they should probably be put behind bars. However, what makes you the almighty judge and jury that gets to decide my fate when I went into the poly, told the 100% truth and was still labelled a lier.
It is people like myself, that know for fact they were telling the truth, got labelled deceptive by one persons word and are given no path of recourse to appeal that decision. Am I supposed to take one for the team? Put the needs of the many in front of the needs of the few? This is the United States and Canada, both of which were supposed to be democracys last time I checked. You are damned right I am pissed and "exploded into a volcano of righteous fury" when I was told I was not telling the truth when I knew I was.
If after browsing through these posts, you still maintain that all of us are liers, thieves, rapists and drug users so be it. You made it, you passed the poly and fulfilled your dream of law enforcement. You are afforded the priviledge to look down on everyone else and pass your jaded judgement onto all. Be as proud as you want to call yourself our enemy.
If getting into law enforcement meant I too would have become as soured, bitter and jaded towards the rest of society as yourself, then I am quite proud to have not passed your test. Thanks for doing your job and thanks for posting your views. It helps ease the pain of not becoming a cop. You just made me feel that much better that I see people and life in a little more positive light than yourself. I am going home tonight to have a nice relaxing dinner and hold my wife on the couch. You go home tonight, in paranoia that the world is full of rapist, drug dealers, liers and thieves and see who sleeps better. Sweet dreams.
Canadian Crusader,
Many readers of this message board agree with you Crusader...
Well said!
Triple x
Canadian Crusader,
Well said!
PDD-Fed,
If AntiPolygraph.org's "bottom line" were genuinely that which you allege it to be, wouldn't you think that posts like yours would be deleted? Or is our commitment to open and uncensored discussion and debate of polygraph issues also part of the elaborate "smokescreen" of which you speak?
???
I'm preparing to cross-examine the world renowned Dr. Charles Honts, he is currently the top of his field which is polygraphy. He claims that its difficult to beat the machine, however, over the years he has studied many "counter measures" i.e. ways to beat the lie detector. His most noted study involved having the person pressing on his toes during the controled questions, not the relevant ones; also biting your tongue between the questions; those are two of the physical counter measures one can try, a mental measure is counting slowly backwards from seven between questions. His research showed that 50% of those who practiced these exercises for less than 30 minutes passed or beat the machine. Dr. Honts has methons to counter these counters for instance, he has a guage under the chair to measure a shift in weight if the person pushes on his toes. Look up his work and also that of Dr. Raskin in various countermeasures.
Hello
can someone please help me out with my original post? I want to be a good cop, and am not a "recreational" drug user. I used the drugs to enhance myself, and made the mistake because it was illegal. Not to debate that issue, but I must lie because this department will not take anyone who has injected into themself. Thanks
Guest,
I don't think you're going to find too many sympathetic ears offering up pointers on how to lie your way through a polygraph. Given the serious nature of your offense (injecting an illegal substance into your body), you might want to opt for another line of work.
Good luck.
Kona
I know how much it can suck to hear bad news, but I have to agree with Kona. I wouldn't ever tell anybody to stop the pursuit of a life dream, but I think you have tough road ahead of you. I don't know of any agency that will allow you to become an officer if you have used intraveneous drugs. Newport beach is about the most liberal department I know of, and they will accept (depending on circumstances) the experimentation of any drug with the exception of injectables. They are more acceptable of experimentation, because they aggresively hire college graduates. They, of course, assume that college students will "experiment" more than the average person. As far as the lying goes, that isn't what this website is about. It is for those of us that are honest and have nothing to hide. It is a guide to help insure that we pass. It is your perogative to use the information from this website as you please, but I would never encourage anybody to lie. The police departments have policies and procedures for a reason. It is not up to us to decide whether or not we want to follow them. They are looking for the absolute best, so if there is something you have done in your life that is a permanent disqualifier it doesn't mean your a bad person, it just means that you aren't qualified to hold that position. Don't take it personally, just feel good knowing that qualified, honest people are being hired to protect our communities.
There are people in law enforcement that got there after taking pre-employment polys right now who lie, cheat, steal, assault, murder and break a variety of other laws, but a guy who used steroids in the past is a bad man?
0.
Quote from: mike3358 on May 01, 2004, 05:17 AMThere are people in law enforcement that got there after taking pre-employment polys right now who lie, cheat, steal, assault, murder and break a variety of other laws, but a guy who used steroids in the past is the "enemy"?
Mike,
I don't think that anyone here called the person in question "the enemy," as you so eloquently put it. I simply opined that given the nature of his illegal activity, he might not be the best choice for the position of police officer recruit.
This guy admitted to injecting an illegal substance (steroids) into his body. Maybe I'm going way out on a limb here, but if he was willing to inject something into his body that was illegal and very dangerous, then I've got to wave the bullshit flag, and seriously question this person's JUDGEMENT. We're not talking about smoking pot here, we're talking about syringes, needles, and serious drugs.
If I were on the hiring board of a police department, I would pass on this guy in a New York minute. It's nothing personal, but why hire a person that demonstrated extremely poor judgement when there are thousands of others out there that got through life without sticking a needle in their arm?
As for your observation that there are police officers out there right now that are murderers, thieves, etc....I would venture to say that they are certainly the rare exception, not the rule. That is why police departments have an Internal Affairs Bureau; to investigate and prosecute dirty cops to the fullest extent of the law.
Kona
Quote from: Kona on May 01, 2004, 11:23 PM
I don't think that anyone here called the person in question "the enemy,"
You're right, my fault and pardon my eloquence.
I guess my point goes back to the reason this board is here, to debate the before mentioned tests.
All I'm saying is that a guy who passes a poly is not always a good person and a guy who fails a poly is not always a bad person.
Quote from: mike3358 on May 04, 2004, 12:14 PM
All I'm saying is that a guy who passes a poly is not always a good person and a guy who fails a poly is not always a bad person.
Concur with that 100%.
Kona
Quote from: Guest on Apr 08, 2004, 07:25 AMI have a poly coming up within the next month. My problem is I have taken steroids in the past, and have already told the department I have not. I was advised there was no way I would get hired if I did not lie, so I need to get ready for the polygraph. I am about to read the online book from this site, but if anyone has any special tricks that work for them, it would be great. I have a good reputation with this organization, so would possibly be able to convince me even if the readings are a little shaky. Please give me some advice.
http://forum.dekalbcity.com
You'd make a great cop... An illegal drug user and a liar. Good job, pig.
Dumbass.
Most people on this site aren't anti-law enforcement A.Shemonia. You are barking up the wrong tree coming to this site. Your site seems to spew a large amount of uninformed bullshit. What is your cure for the problems that are encountered with law enforcement? I bet you probably don't have any. You sound like a bitter asshole.
Quote from: Guest on Apr 08, 2004, 07:25 AMI have a poly coming up within the next month. My problem is I have taken steroids in the past, and have already told the department I have not. I was advised there was no way I would get hired if I did not lie, so I need to get ready for the polygraph. I am about to read the online book from this site, but if anyone has any special tricks that work for them, it would be great. I have a good reputation with this organization, so would possibly be able to convince me even if the readings are a little shaky. Please give me some advice.
Use countermeasures. LIE. Admit nothing. You did nothing undeserving of a good career in law enforcement but you can almost guarantee that you won't get it if you tell the truth. I was in a similar situation and I told the truth. I flunked the test. I did not get the job. LIE your ass off. If a guy who admits to lighting up (but not inhaling) can be elected President, you should make a good cop...
I would like to clear up a few misunderstandings about steriods first there not an illegal drug there a class 3 scheduled drug it is illegal to use without a prescription. Now how many people can honestly deny using a prescription drug given to you by your mother or family friend without a prescription (acne medication, dandruff shampoo, birthcontrol pills, sleeping aids etc....).And as far as danger goes I would kindly suggest you do some research on steroids just as you did to educate yourself on the poly before speaking so you can learn that contrary to popular belief you CANNOT die or overdose from steroids and all the other myths that go along with them its funny steroids and poly have so much in common until you educate yourself. And on the subject of injection, steroids are injected intermuscular or oral applications not i/v. So let me get this straight you guys frown upon injection "roids" but smoking pot and mild expirimintaion with "narcotics" aka illegal drugs is ok?What about if you take oral steroids will it then be ok because it was in tablet form give me a break.And just for inquiring minds the current mister Olympia Ronnie Colman who was a police officer for the state of Texas IS and WAS on more steroids than everybody on this website could imagine, lets not forget the governor of California another Mr. Olympia Arnold Schwarzenegger I haven't seen or heard problems with these people on the news have you, as a matter of fact can anybody recall ever hearing about anyone in the news on steroids committing robberies, rapes, or any other serious crimes because they were on steroids?I guess then every male patient that is given testosterone replacement therapy would there for not be eligible law enforcement? Please lets get informed is this not what this websites about INFORMATION so you can make an EDUCATED decision. ;)
For those who would like to get educated on Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS). Note: References sources in this section are provided through the text)
Evaluating the Real Health Risks of Anabolic Steroids
While the primary objective of Congress in classifying anabolic steroids as controlled substances (and criminalizing their use) was probably to solve the pharmacologic "cheating" problem in competition sports, the reported health risks associated with these "deadly drugs" provided a seemingly valid basis for the legislation. The reportedly devastating health hazards were used to justify a policy favoring imprisonment of athletes involved with steroids over allowing them to "destroy themselves" with these substances. But would such a policy be appropriate if the real health dangers to healthy adult males were actually significantly less than the members of Congress - and the general public - have been led to believe? An unbiased review of the medical and scientific evidence of risks to healthy adult males is necessary in order to understand and assess the legitimacy of our current national approach to the "steroid problem."
Regrettably, the medical and scientific community has historically been less than truthful in presenting information about anabolic steroids to the general public. For example, for many years their position was that steroids do not build muscle. (For an interesting examination of how study results were engineered to show that steroids do not work through the use of intentionally flawed designs, see, Taylor, 1982, pp. 16-19.) Even as late as 1984, in the highly publicized anti-steroid book Death in the Locker Room: Steroids & Sports (Goldman, 1984), then-medical student Bob Goldman seriously presented his theory about how steroids work in a subchapter devoted to the "placebo effect." It is unclear whether such faulty opinions were based upon ignorance of the overwhelming anecdotal evidence or upon an attempt to protect the public by concealing the truth. Whatever the reason, "[t]he medical community lost much credibility as a result of repeated denials that [steroids] enhance performance" (Yesalis, Kennedy, et al., 1993, p. 1217). Of course, the athletes themselves knew decades earlier about the dramatic effects of anabolics on sports performance and appearance. While today the medical establishment concedes that there is no doubt that anabolic steroids do indeed work (perhaps too well), its previous position created a tremendous distrust within the athletic community and led to an often recognized polarization between the groups which may never be undone.
Regarding anabolic steroid side effects and health hazards, the position of the medical community has been mostly linked to hyperbolic, hysterical works like Death in the Locker Room. The mainstream media, always seeking the sensationalism of a "big story," conveyed such material to the public as if it were gospel truth. With no personal experience to the contrary, the average American accepts this characterization of steroids as dangerous killer drugs. On the other hand, many strength athletes are convinced that doctors and the government advance the "side effect" argument mostly as a scare tactic to preserve the "purity" of athletic competition. They have amassed their own body of underground anecdotal evidence derived from their observations of side effects on themselves and on their peers, or from "underground" treatises on self-administration of steroids. "Athletes using anabolic steroids today have a sophisticated pharmacologic knowledge base for using these agents that surpasses that of the vast majority of physicians. For this reason, traditional warnings regarding the lack of efficacy and the potential dangers of steroid abuse are universally held in contempt. Today, it appears that the experts on anabolic steroid use in athletic competition are not medical clinicians but the athletes [themselves]" (Perry, et al., 1990, p. 422).
A Few Words about Anabolic Steroid Research
Several problems have affected much of the past research into anabolic steroid effects. Until very recently, it was considered unethical for researchers to administer the highly supraphysiologic dosages necessary to simulate use patterns of established steroid users. Therefore, most human studies involved steroid users self-reporting their histories of dosages and duration of use, rather than any controlled administration by the researchers. The reliability problems with this methodology have been noted by experts in the field. Only recently have researchers begun to administer more substantial dosages for short-term periods, simulating the moderate-dose steroid cycles used by some athletes (see, for example: Bhasin, et al., 1996; Hengge et al., 1996).
Another problem plaguing steroid research has been lack of funding. However, the growing interest in anabolic steroids for anti-aging and AIDS therapies may prompt grants for further research. Perhaps the most enlightening research would be retrospective cohort studies examining the health condition, cancer prevalence and mortality statistics of professional bodybuilders from the 1950's, 1960's and 1970's. With such studies, the long-term health ramifications of steroid use finally would be known and quantified. Regrettably, grant proposals to conduct such studies have been repeatedly turned down. Of course, a finding that there are generally no statistically significant long-term adverse effects (especially with moderate dosages and intermittent use) could encourage or increase non-medical steroid use, and might call into question our present national policy of criminalizing steroid users. Consequently, it is unlikely that a strong anti-steroid authority like the National Institute on Drug Abuse, a frequent sponsor of steroid research, will ever approve or fund such a study.
Anabolic Steroid Use by Women and Teenagers
Without question, there are health risks involved in the self-administration of any prescription medicine, particularly in the absence of a physician's advice with respect to dosages and duration of use. Further, without regular monitoring by a doctor, some side effects may go unnoticed or untreated until it is too late. Anabolic steroids can have adverse effects upon the body, and the risks for teenagers and women are higher than for adult males. Since large exogenous doses of androgens are more foreign to a woman's body than to a man's, their effect on the delicate hormonal balance of a woman is more profound. Excessive growth of body hair (hirsutism), coarsening of the skin, male pattern baldness, and deepening of the voice may occur (especially at massive dosages) and are generally not reversible upon discontinuance of steroids. Other possible effects particular to women include heavy facial masculinization, breast tissue reduction, alterations in menstrual cycles, and clitoral enlargement. Legal issues aside, any woman considering the use of high-dose androgens for physical enhancement must seriously weigh the perceived benefits against the quite unappealing potential cosmetic costs.
For teenagers, there is the additional risk of premature closure of the growth plates of the long bones. Even if not for this added risk, the self-administration of anabolics by teenagers must be strongly discouraged. As compared to mature adults, teenagers are much more likely to abuse anabolic steroids to the possible detriment of their health. Generally less focused upon long-range health than adults, more susceptible to peer pressure, and eager for fast results, teenagers are more likely to use anabolics in dangerously high dosages and without any medical supervision. Also, as it is recognized that the effects of anabolics upon size and strength are partially (and sometimes even completely) temporary, teens seem particularly less willing to suffer these post-cycle size and strength reductions, and are more likely to continuously use high-dose steroids for prolonged periods. Even Dan Duchaine, author of the Underground Steroid Handbook II (1989) and a favorite target of the proponents of steroid criminalization, is opposed to steroid use by teenagers. Clearly, even in countries where steroids can be legally obtained without a prescription, it is this writer's opinion that the choice to use them for physical enhancement should be made by mature, informed adults with a pre-established dedication to serious weight-training for several years. Anabolic steroids should never be used by beginning lifters, those with dubious commitments to weight-training, or those simply seeking a substitute for hard work. Parents with suspicions or concerns about their teen children experimenting with anabolics should see Wright & Cowart (1990), Chapter 4, "Recognizing Anabolic Steroid Use in Adolescents," pp. 71 -91. [But as strongly as the juvenile use of anabolics should be discouraged, there is a major question as to whether our nation's present "criminalization" approach is working.
Adverse Effects of Excess Androgens
The average adult male production of testosterone is less than 10 milligrams (mg) per day. Supplemental androgens can raise blood androgen levels to many times the amount that could be naturally produced. All these extra androgens will effect the body's hormonal balance, including the reproductive system. Because anabolics mimic endogenous androgens (i.e., your own natural testosterone) in the negative feedback loop of the hypothalamic-pituitary-gonadal axis, they cause the body to decrease its own production. Exactly how long it takes for the body to begin to shut down its own production of androgens is uncertain, although some have estimated it at about three weeks of steroid therapy. This induced hypogonadal state is characterized by decreased serum testosterone levels, associated testicular atrophy, and impaired sperm production that results in temporary infertility. It is this aspect of anabolic therapy that has been the focus of numerous studies testing the use of anabolics as a form of male contraception. But it is important to note that these effects are reversible with discontinuance of the steroids (Haupt and Rovere, 1984, p. 481), and that no case of permanent sterility as a result of prolonged high-dose steroid consumption has ever been reliably documented (Yesalis and Cowart, 1998, p. 53).
Steroid use can also effect the libido. It is common for the sex drive to heighten during a cycle but decrease toward the end and after because the body's own production of testosterone has been temporarily shut down due to the exogenous steroids. Decreased testicular size is also not uncommon with prolonged usage. Both of these adverse effects are reversible upon the body's own recuperation and often can be avoided altogether with the administration of gonadotropin stimulating drugs, which "jump-start" the body's natural production of testosterone (Phillips, 1991, p. 131; Di Pasquale, 1990, pp. 24-26).
Other adverse effects of excessive androgens upon the body's system of hormones are primarily due to the eventual conversion of the androgens into other compounds. Earlier, we noted that steroid molecules in the body are eventually converted into other compounds or excreted in the urine (see How do Anabolic Steroids Work in the Body? section). Testosterone can be converted by an enzymatic process into a slightly altered derivative hormone called dihydrotestosterone (DHT), a steroid molecule that may be significantly responsible for these adverse effects. Adverse effects of an androgenic nature occur because muscles are not the only parts of the body with receptor sites for steroid molecules, and because a steroid molecule has the potential to deliver several different messages. Which message the steroid molecule delivers depends upon the location of the receptor site to which it links. A steroid molecule linking to a receptor site in a hair follicle may deliver a message to stop growing (leading to male pattern baldness). One linking to a site in a sebaceous gland may deliver a message to produce more oil (leading to acne). One linking to a site in the prostate gland may deliver a message for the gland to enlarge (leading to prostatitis). The occurrence and extent of these adverse effects depend upon the concentration of receptor sites for steroid molecules in that particular area. Each individual is different. For example, male pattern baldness can be exacerbated in athletes who have a genetic predisposition. Steroids with a high conversion rate to DHT seem to be particularly responsible for this adverse effect, and should be avoided. Also, the effect can be partially controlled by the use of finasteride (Proscar or Propecia), a prescription drug which helps to block the conversion of testosterone to DHT.
The appearance of androgenic effects is also largely related to the dosage and to the choice of steroid. Highly androgenic steroids such as testosterone esters, especially in very large doses, will generally be much more prone to cause problems than highly anabolic, less androgenic drugs like methenolone or oxandrolone. However, recent research suggests that the side effects of even highly androgenic compounds have been overstated. There were no significant side effects of 10 weeks of testosterone enanthate at a dosage of 600 mg per week (six times the replacement dose of this highly androgenic ester and more than many bodybuilders might use) (Bhasin,et al.). (In a discouraging kick in the pants to natural athletes everywhere, study participants receiving the testosterone injections without any exercise at all enjoyed significantly greater increases in fat-free mass, arm size and leg size than those who worked out hard but without the steroids.) Other studies have also reported minimal significant androgenic side effects (Pope & Katz, 1994), including one involving the highly androgenic oral steroid oxymetholone (Hengge, et al.). Androgens also have the capacity to be converted into estrogen by chemical reactions and enzymes within certain body tissues. The process by which the steroid molecule is converted to estrogen is called aromatization. Those anabolics that are easily aromatized into estrogen can cause a feminization of the breast tissue known as gynecomastia. While largely dose related, a natural propensity for this condition can cause it to occur even in moderate dosages. This condition can often be avoided or arrested by the judicious use of anti-estrogenic compounds. Once a serious cosmetic problem exists, minor surgery is required to correct it. Numerous professional bodybuilders have had this surgery (Phillips, p. 125) and others obviously need it (look closely at a very top place finisher in the 1998 Mr. Olympia lineup).
Anabolic Steroids and the Liver
Anabolic steroids are processed by the liver. As discussed earlier, C-17 alkylated oral steroids (steroids with an alkyl group added at the alpha position of the "C-17" or number 17 carbon atom of the molecule to withstand total degradation on their first pass through the liver [see Steroids 101 section above]) are unusually harsh on the liver. For this reason, even moderate short-term administration of these C-17 oral steroids can effect liver function test readings. Elevated liver counts indicating liver stress (toxicity) have been reported in recent studies of somewhat moderate oral anabolic steroid therapy (daily doses of 40 and 80 mg of oxandrolone [Oxandrin, formerly Anavar]) as reported in the online periodical Medibolics, edited by Michael Mooney (www.medibolics.com). However, these elevated liver function readings will return to normal after cessation of a moderate, short-term steroid cycle. I could find not one case to the contrary. Further, it is recognized that intense weight training alone often causes changes in liver function tests, including SGOT, SGPT and LDH (this is something that all physicians monitoring athletes using anabolics should be familiar with).
Recent studies continue to suggest that reports of serious adverse effects of anabolic steroids upon the liver in healthy athletes may be highly overstated. In a study of athletes, of the 53 current or past steroid users who underwent laboratory testing, only one subject displayed an abnormal liver test (Pope & Katz, 1994, p. 379; incidentally, on physical examination, not one user displayed evidence of any major abnormalities possibly attributable to steroids, such as high blood pressure, edema, acne or hair loss.) Another study tested one of the most powerful and reputedly dangerously toxic anabolic steroids for 30 weeks on HIV positive men and women (Hengge et al.). Oxymetholone, formerly known as Anadrol in the U.S. and a C-17 alkylated oral steroid, was administered in a dosage of over 1,000 mg per week (more than that used by many bodybuilders, and for a much longer duration of uninterrupted use). The results were significant gains in lean muscle mass -- even without any weightlifting. Even more importantly - and surprisingly -- there were no significant problems with liver function, water retention, or virilization side effects (it will be interesting to see whether further studies yield consistent findings at such high dosages).
While the dangers of anabolics to athletes' livers appear to have been highly exaggerated, it must be recognized that an apparently healthy athlete with a previously existing but undiscovered liver problem could do serious damage to himself by self-administering C-17 oral anabolic steroids.
Based on our present information, cardiac risks seem to be primarily related to high dosages in the absence of physician monitoring. Jose Antonio, PhD., a nationally recognized authority on drugs in sports who has written a monthly column for Flex magazine, cites a study examining serious cardiovascular side effects in four weightlifters using "massive amounts" of steroids (Antonio, 1998). While there is little doubt that the health problems of these men were caused by their anabolic steroid abuse, these were clearly mega-dose abusers. "[H]igh dose equals high risk," notes Dr. Antonio, but "low-dose androgens (e.g., 200-600 mg per week for 10 weeks) pose little threat to health."
Anabolic Steroids and the Prostate
A legitimate concern is the potential adverse effect of excessive androgens on the prostate gland. While there is one case report of prostate cancer in a bodybuilder (Roberts & Essenhigh, 1986), no studies have shown an increased risk or incidence of prostatic cancer or hypertrophy with androgen use or indicated that androgens per se predispose to these conditions (Swerdloff & Wang, 1993). Numerous male contraceptive studies using up to 200 mg/week for over a year show no evidence of prostate stimulation. Researchers at the University of Iowa recently examined the prostate effects of the administration for 15 weeks of up to 500 mg/week to healthy men in their twenties and thirties (Cooper, et al., 1998, pp. 441-43). No changes in prostate size or serum prostate specific antigen (PSA) levels were detected either during or up to 25 weeks after the last dose. Further, androgens are not the only or even the main causative factor in prostate cancer, as evinced by a case study in which a chronically testosterone deficient man developed prostate cancer (Boccon, 1991, et al.). Warning: this does not necessarily mean that much higher dosages, especially of highly androgenic compounds, might not adversely effect the prostate, especially in older men. It is not known if athletes who have used steroids for prolonged periods will encounter more prostatic problems as they age (Di Pasquale, 1990, p. 62).
Anabolic Steroids and Aggressive/Psychiatric Symptoms
Enormous media attention has been focused upon the reported adverse psychiatric effects (especially violent behavior) of steroid use. "Roid rage" is the descriptive term for steroid-induced "spontaneous, highly aggressive, out-of-control behavior where the police either were called or should have intervened" (Yesalis & Cowart, p. 60). A few researchers have suggested that psychiatric symptoms including increased aggression are a common side effect of anabolic steroid use. For example, a flawed 1988 study suggested that psychiatric disorders occur with unusual frequency among athletes using anabolics (Pope & Katz, 1988, pp. 487-490). But the conclusions of these researchers have been regarded with skepticism by other experts (see, Lubell, 1989, comments of Dr. James Wright and Dr. Charles Yesalis at 178). "If this phenomenon is real, it is relatively rare (probably less than 1 percent) among steroid users. Even among those affected, the impact of previous mental illness or abuse of other drugs is still unclear" (Yesalis & Cowart, p. 60). "Some long-time steroid users have never suffered any emotional instability, or anything more than transient physical effects" and many steroid users describe non-violent feelings of euphoria, well-being and enhanced self-confidence as common effects (Wright & Cowart, p. 51). In one study to determine the psychiatric effects of steroid use on athletes, no significant differences could be found between users and non-users. "The facts that steroids have been used by tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of athletes over two decades and that behavioral effects are only recently being discovered (in small numbers) tend to support [that feelings of aggression may not be observed in the majority of steroid users]. Our findings are compatible with and complementary to those in anecdotal reports and data from individual psychiatrists" (Bahrke, et al., 1990, pp. 834-835). The researchers do not rule out, however, the possibility that in a small minority of predisposed individuals, "steroid use may be sufficient to push them over the edge and contribute to irrational or violent behavior." Many experienced steroid users have found that steroids enhance certain preexisting personality problems. Angry and combative users will become angrier and more combative; however, while normal guys will train more aggressively, they won't generally become violent.
Anabolic Steroids and Psychological Dependence
There is some evidence that anabolic steroid use can lead to psychological dependence in certain individuals. Whether the dependence is due to chemical effects upon the brain or simply because of the positive reinforcement occasioned by a more muscular physique is not known. Whatever the cause, this may be the most dangerous aspect of steroid use for those it affects. The cessation of steroid use, especially after a prolonged cycle, often leaves the user in a state of low endogenous testosterone levels. For individuals with an inadequate sense of self, the loss of some portion of the steroid gains can be psychologically devastating to the ego. These individuals can be unable to resist immediately resuming steroid use. Further, as the goal of hardcore bodybuilders is not optimal muscle size, but maximal muscle size, dosages can become excessive. While many athletes successfully use steroids intermittently and with moderation, it is a sobering thought that there are certain individuals who start out on low risk, short-term cycles and ultimately end up using massive dosages for years of uninterrupted use. It might be theorized that the problem of dependence on steroids by certain bodybuilders has less to do with the nature of the substance than with the psychological profile of the users.
Other Adverse Effects of Anabolic Steroids
Connective tissue injuries. The medical literature regarding the suggestion of increased athletic injuries caused by anabolic steroid use is scant (Di Pasquale, August 1992, pp. 12-13). It is not unreasonable to expect muscle and tendon tears in hardcore strength athletes, regardless of steroid use. However, the exceptional frequency and severity (often requiring surgical reattachment) of such injuries in professional level bodybuilders do raise suspicions as to the possibility that steroids, diuretics, or other drugs may be implicated. Former Mr. Olympia Dorian Yates has suffered training-related injuries to the chest, leg and biceps, and retired after a major triceps injury. Pro bodybuilder Alq Gurley reportedly completely tore the quadriceps muscles in both legs when he fell while simply walking! Whether these injuries are steroid-related is as yet unknown, although some animal studies have suggested that steroids may cause tendon degeneration and increased risk of tendon rupture. It may not be unreasonable to assume that, like many adverse steroid effects, connective tissue injuries are mostly associated with high-dose, prolonged usage.
AIDS. Many articles include this as a possible consequence. Quite frankly, anyone who would even consider sharing needles with his gym buddies in this day and age is so irresponsible and judgment-impaired that the substance of this entire article is lost on him.
Premature Closure of Growth Plates. Chronic steroid usage prior to puberty or in early adolescence can cause premature closure of the growth plates of the long bones, preventing the young user from attaining full natural height. For this reason as well as others previously discussed, teenagers should not use steroids for muscle building.
The Dangers of Counterfeit Steroids
One of the primary effects of our government's crackdown on legitimate anabolic steroids has been the expansion of a huge black market of counterfeit products. While estimates vary widely, many authorities assert that the majority of anabolics available on the black market are fakes. These counterfeits are manufactured under unsupervised and potentially unsanitary conditions, and may contain no real androgens at all (see, Di Pasquale, 1995). They may also be contaminated with bacteria or other dangerous substances. Noted steroid expert Dr. Robert Price: "My colleagues at Mount Sinai Hospital in New York tell me they are treating many more athletes for side effects of counterfeit and bogus steroids than they did when reliable pharmacy-purchased steroids were available" (Allen, 1998, p. 224).
If the health dangers of real anabolic steroids have been overstated, the dangers of counterfeit anabolics may be understated. The problem is particularly serious because of how difficult it is to distinguish a real product from a counterfeit knock-off. As an example of these very subtle differences, compare legitimate versus counterfeit Anapolon 50 tablets by Syntex (Grunding & Bachmann, 1996, pp. 349-351, photographs at 357-358, 361).
Conclusion
It can be concluded that "[a]s used by most athletes, the side effects of anabolic steroid use appear to be minimal" (Di Pasquale, 1990, p. 5). Despite over forty years of use by athletes, many of whom are now well into middle-age, we have yet to hear reports of an epidemic of steroid-related deaths. A review of the medical literature does not support the depiction of a serious health crisis related to anabolic steroids. Of course, it would be untrue to say that anabolic steroids, especially black market products, are safe for unsupervised, unmonitored self-administration. On the other hand, it would be equally untrue to say that anabolics are "deadly drugs" deserving of the imposition of harsh criminal penalties for personal use by adults. Accordingly, there is a serious question as to whether Congress may have grossly overreacted in addressing the non-medical use of anabolic steroids by athletes.
This is not opion but med fact , as they say!!!! hope it helps !
Mr.Roid-info/Meat-head
Please do not come on this website talking about educating those of us who use it. I really don't think I am going to trust anybody's information that doesn't even know the difference between there, they're and their. This is an ANTIPOLYGRAPH website, not a STEROID-FREAKSHOW site. The bottom line is that steroids will get you disqualified from any LE job. That is all I care about. ;)
BlackJhack please refrain from trying to insult me since I see that is your opening statement every time you disagree with someone .The reason for my post was simply to clear some of the misinformation you so confidently wrote down for starters about injecting steroids intravenously if you would do that you would be dead in a matter of hours. And then in another post you accuse someone of "spewing a large amount of uninformed bullshit", yet you seam to have no problem doing that yourself in your own post? Then you tell me, "I really don't think I am going to trust anybody's information that doesn't even know the difference between there, they're and their". Yet you cant even spell correctly here is a list of incorrect words in your posts let me spell them correctly for you (embarrassed, intravenous, aggressively, prerogative.). What I did was what anybody else would do if they went to another website and saw a post about polygraphing and some close minded uneducated person was "spewing a large amount of uninformed bullshit " you would have corrected him too! :)
And for the guy who did the original post I have yet to hear of a single case of a police or fire department in the nation doing a "steroid specific test", for pre-employment or once your on the job these drug test DO NOT include steroids. It's a very expensive test, which they will only perform if there is a substantial amount of evidence or if they have been informed by some one. ;D
Mr.roid-non-info
Again, I must inform you that all steroid use is and will be a disqualifying factor from all LE agencies. I know that may make you angry, because you are a steroid-freako-druggy, but please don't come on this site trying to push your drugs off on us. Most of us here are trying to attain a goal of LE. Why are you trying to convince us that steroids are good? By the way "someone" is one word... ;)
Blackjhack,
"The only fool bigger than the person who knows it all is the person who argues with him."
I had given you the benefit of doubt that maybe you had figured out my message, IF YOU'RE GOING TO SPEAK ABOUT A SUBJECT ATLEAST BE INFORMED. In light of your ignorance I will not respond to you any longer.
Mr. roid-rage
I don't ever seem to remember saying that I was an expert on steroids. If I remeber correctly, I was stating the fact that one will be disqualified, if one does injectable type drugs. I do not remeber saying that I was even remotely interested on the subject of steroids. Again, steroids will get you disqualified from any LE job, period. Just because I have never used heroin, does not mean I need to be an expert to know that it will get me disqualified from all process, just like steroids, you inject them and you can kiss LE good-bye. Do you honestly think you are going to go to your background investigator and argue that you shouldn't be disqualified because you are full of information as to why steroids aren't dangerous? Bottom line is that they have deemed steroids a disqualifying factor and it does not make a bit of difference how much "info" you think you may have. If you think you can talk your way into an LE position good-luck. Roid, please wipe the shit out of your eyes and next time read the post as it was written. ;)
Roids,
I just wanted to add that you totally contradict yourself, because in your post to me you say that you can die in just a few hours from steroids, but in your post before that you state that you absolutely "CANNOT" die from steroids. Which is it? Also, you say "Let's get educated before we make a decision" What the hell are you talking about? What decision? The decision to do steroids and never be hired on by any LE agency in the country? You seriously need to educate yourself on what the main goal of most of the people on this site is. If you choose not to respond, it will probably be for the better of all future law-enforcement officers on this site. 8)
Administrator,
The preceding post:
Quote
Mr. roid-rage
I don't ever seem to remember saying that I was an expert on steroids. If I remeber correctly, I was stating the fact that one will be disqualified, if one does injectable type drugs. I do not remeber saying that I was even remotely interested on the subject of steroids. Again, steroids will get you disqualified from any LE job, period. Just because I have never used heroin, does not mean I need to be an expert to know that it will get me disqualified from all process, just like steroids, you inject them and you can kiss LE good-bye. Do you honestly think you are going to go to your background investigator and argue that you shouldn't be disqualified because you are full of information as to why steroids aren't dangerous? Bottom line is that they have deemed steroids a disqualifying factor and it does not make a bit of difference how much "info" you think you may have. If you think you can talk your way into an LE position good-luck. Roid, please wipe the shit out of your eyes and next time read the post as it was written.
I believe this post represents a good candidate for your new elimination policy. Although largely well thought out (and I believe to be a correct analysis of LE's general response to admitted steroid use), the last sentence of this post is both unnecessary and again what I believe should be considered unacceptable language and an unacceptable jibe at one having an opposing viewpoint. I don't think it should be sufficient to express a valid viewpoint (or even an acceptable invalid one) and cap it off with such boorish childishness. Your thoughts?
Anonymous,
BlackJhack's concluding comment was indeed inappropriate, and (s)he has been advised of AntiPolygraph.org's posting policy (https://antipolygraph.org/forum/index.php?topic=1791.msg13605#msg13605) in a private message.
Also, a forged post to you that was intended to appear as if it were authored by the AntiPolygraph.org administrator (a guest post by "Administrator."), and which stated "Yes, I do have a thought. I think you are a little rat fink tattle tale puke." has been deleted directly. In addition, the poster's IP address has been temporarily denied posting privileges on this message board.
Roger-that. I will try to comport myself better when leaving posts on this site. It will be tough, but I will try not insult those that deserve it. ;)
Quote from: BlackJhack on Jun 11, 2004, 07:08 PMRoger-that. I will try to comport myself better when leaving posts on this site. It will be tough, but I will try not insult those that deserve it. ;)
As to how he deserved the insult I am still unsure; however, it seems to me that the one that is truly bothered by the steroid issue is you. I imagine it has something to do with you being picked on in high school by some jock to whom you attributed his popularity and strength to steroids and thus hate them, but I digress and will address a few relevant issues.
1. The fact of the matter is that no one has ever died from using steroids. If you doubt this statement then I by all means welcome proof to the contrary.
2. What the poster with the steroid knowledge meant by dying from steroids was if you injected them intravenously and not intramuscularly as they were intended. He makes this reference because you refered to steroids as an intravenous drug, which it isn't. Infact if you inject any oil intravenously you will more than likely die, steroids come in an oil base, so the steroids don't infact kill you, it is the oil.
3. I believe that the true tragedy of this post can be found in the fact that the ORIGINAL poster found himself in the predicament that he has to lie to get the job, there is no way around it, if he is honest he doesn't get the job. Personally I find the issue of instant disqualification for steroid use absurd considering most domestic violence and crime is committed while someone is under the influence of alcohol, a perfectly legal and acceptable drug to use sporadically if getting hired by a LE agency.
4. I cannot condone any kind of dishonesty in the hiring process, however, I cannot blame him for lying over this issue. The fact of the matter is that he did use steroids and must accept the consequence of his action. If he passes the poly then I wish him the best, if he fails, then he has to go look for an agency where steroid use is not an automatic disqualifier.
Quote from: dimas on Jun 13, 2004, 10:51 AMAs to how he deserved the insult I am still unsure; however, it seems to me that the one that is truly bothered by the steroid issue is you. I imagine it has something to do with you being picked on in high school by some jock to whom you attributed his popularity and strength to steroids and thus hate them, but I digress...
Nice cheap shot, but I think that the only thing bothering Blackjack is "roid-info's" attempt to somehow justify steroid use by his lengthy dissertation on the history of steroids. The fact remains that injecting steroids (unless under the direct supervision of a doctor) is a disqualifying event, end of story. Like I mentioned in an earlier post, I must seriously question the judgement of a person that injects something into his body (without a doctor's prescription) for whatever reason. It's not justifiable in my eyes, no matter how safe you perceive or rationalize it to be.
Quote from: dimas on Jun 13, 2004, 10:51 AM1. The fact of the matter is that no one has ever died from using steroids. If you doubt this statement then I by all means welcome proof to the contrary.
Two words: Lyle Alzedo.
But you're probably right........I'm sure that all of his steroid use didn't contribute to his horrible death.
Quote from: dimas on Jun 13, 2004, 10:51 AM4. I cannot condone any kind of dishonesty in the hiring process, however, I cannot blame him for lying over this issue.
Maybe it's just me.....but this sounds an awful lot like you just contradicted yourself......all in one sentence.
Bottom line.....I don't think you're going to find any departments out there that are willing to hire a guy that admitted to injecting a substance into his body to help him achieve the "ultimate body." Let us know if you do.
Regards,
Kona
Kona,
1. Lyle died of a rare form of BRAIN CANCER that is only seen in patients with immunodeficiencies. This does not indicate that Lyle was HIV positive (another hypothesis). There are many causes of immunodeficiencies. However, no other steroid user, who is immunocompetent, has died from this same form of brain cancer, discrediting the hypothesis that Lyle's steroid use caused his cancer or his death.
2. In none of my posts do I justify steroids use. Like the first sentence of my original post said "I would like to clear up a few misunderstandings about steroids."
3. Blackjhack seems to have other problems besides reading comprehension. I went through other posts that he has written on other subjects and noticed he has the same tendencies to insult and disagree for no apparent reason. This post was from MILITARY RECRUITMENT AND EMPLOYMENT subject: ARRESTED BUT DIDNT REVEAL. Theirs more displays of intelligence from BJ further down on another post when another person responds to him. For the complete post go to the information I have written above. :'(
BlackJhack
New User
Posts: 19
Re: Arrested but didn't reveal
« Reply #3 on: Apr 7th, 2004, 3:44pm » Quote Modify
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It's always amazing how as people get older they tend to embellish the stories of when they were growing up. I think twoblock was sharing this story just to show what a "tough" guy he used to be. Grandpa, nobody is interested in listening to your lame stories about what a "bad-ass" you used to be. I notice that you make the point to mention that they were 5 football players. Well, let me fill you in on something. Back in the "olden days" football ball players were like a 120 pounds and weak. You were never exposed to the bone breaking blasts of a 280 pound running back that runs the 40 in 4.4 seconds. You wore leather helmets for christ's sake, and hardly any pads, and you still never got hurt to the extent that players do now and they have better equipment! So to take on 5 football players back in the 1950's (which I highly doubt you did anyways) is not a great feat. I'm sure in your day you may have considered yourself "tough", but in this day and age, I guarantee you that you would get smashed. You weren't as stong as the kids these days. With all the steroids and the way people dedicate themselves to the gym there is no way you could ever compete by just using your "farm muscle". Please stop boring us with your silly fairy tales.
I appreciate Mr. Roid info clearing up the Lyle Alzedo myth regarding his steroid use and how it killed him. Even if it really did kill him and that is a big "IF" it is still only one person who died from it compared to the thousands that die from alcohol use per year, hundreds from aspirin use, and other hundreds from OTC medications that we can freely drug ourselves with legally.
Also if steroids are indeed so bad then why is it that people can go to these "new age" rejuvenation clinics and LEGALLY be prescribed steroids, HGH and other beauty enhancement drugs with the sole purpose of improving their appearance? Obviously our Gov't doesn't think they are that deadly if they front the bill for HIV-AIDS patients to undergo HGH and steroid therapy at our expense in the sum of 20,000 t0 30,000 dollars every couple of months.
I also would like to clear up that I in no way contradict myself and you should read the post more thouroghly before assuming anything. 1. I state I cannot condone (overlook)his dishonesty, but that I also cannot blame him for doing it. 2. Before you go off and accuse me of being a roid head or prosteroid use let me elaborate on my anti-steroid stance.
In the department I was previously employed in there were two officers who were dismissed for being busted bringing anabolic steroids across the border. They were good officers and it was a shame to see them throw away their careers over this. However, why did they begin using steroids in the first place is more of a problem.
Many of us in the department felt it had something to do with an incident they were involved in with a person in their custody who by all means literally threw them around like rag dolls. It appeared as if the incident took away their confidence in their ability to handle a suspect. Hence they began using steroids to feel more confident about themselves and their abilities to control someone without the use of deadly force.
Ultimately they got caught bringing it across and lost their jobs. I was the unfortunate one on duty when a customs investigator called the department to inform us that they had been arrested. Ironically all they got was a ticket from Customs and were let go a few hours later. Our department, however, has a 0 tolerance stance on drug use and sent them packing.
So in conclusion, no I am not pro steroid and am vehemently against all drug use to include alcohol. Can I sympathize with steroid users? perhaps to a degree and perhaps more if I had been beat down while on duty, but those who enforce the law are no better than criminals if they look away or disregard the law from time to time. As for Mr. Roid Info, I believe he was merely attempting to educate people on this board regarding steroids as it seems many of you are ignorant when it comes to them.
Quote from: dimas on Jun 14, 2004, 04:12 AMI appreciate Mr. Roid info clearing up the Lyle Alzedo myth regarding his steroid use and how it killed him. Even if it really did kill him and that is a big "IF" it is still only one person who died from it compared to the thousands that die from alcohol use per year, hundreds from aspirin use, and other hundreds from OTC medications that we can freely drug ourselves with legally.
Here, let me see if I can help you to understand my point in this whole discussion:
Alcohol = legal
Aspirin = legal
OTC medications = legal
Injecting steroids with a doctor's prescription = legal
Injecting steroids without a doctor's prescription so you can look like Arnold Schwartznegger = illegal
Are you following my drift here? What is your point? Do you want to go back to the days of prohibition? Do you want to make aspirin illegal?
Quote from: dimas on Jun 14, 2004, 04:12 AM.Also if steroids are indeed so bad then why is it that people can go to these "new age" rejuvenation clinics and LEGALLY be prescribed steroids, HGH and other beauty enhancement drugs with the sole purpose of improving their appearance? Obviously our Gov't doesn't think they are that deadly if they front the bill for HIV-AIDS patients to undergo HGH and steroid therapy at our expense in the sum of 20,000 t0 30,000 dollars every couple of months.
Uh, maybe because the steroid use is legally prescribed and under the supervision of a licensed physician, not Joe Blow the roid head injecting himself with Dianabol while stareing at pictures of Mr. Universe?
Gee whiz......what do you think the life expectancy is for a person with full blown AIDS? I'd venture to say that they aren't undergoing steroid treatment under a Doctor's direct supervision so they can compete for the Mr. Universe contest, ya think? Maybe, just maybe they are undergoing the treatment to live a longer life, or to possibly improve the quality of their already not too pleasant lives?
Quote from: dimas on Jun 14, 2004, 04:12 AMIn the department I was previously employed in there were two officers who were dismissed for being busted bringing anabolic steroids across the border. They were good officers and it was a shame to see them throw away their careers over this. However, why did they begin using steroids in the first place is more of a problem.
Two police officers transport an illegal drug across an international border, get caught by U.S. Customs, and you say they were good officers? What is wrong with this picture?
Quote from: dimas on Jun 14, 2004, 04:12 AMMany of us in the department felt it had something to do with an incident they were involved in with a person in their custody who by all means literally threw them around like rag dolls. It appeared as if the incident took away their confidence in their ability to handle a suspect. Hence they began using steroids to feel more confident about themselves and their abilities to control someone without the use of deadly force.
You're kidding, right? These officers began using steroids to feel more confident about themselves, and their ability to control someone? That is the most pathetic excuse I have ever heard to rationalize the use of an illegal substance. What ever happened to hitting the weight room, and furthering their knowledge of defensive tactics? Might that not have accomplished the same thing?
As far as I'm concerned, we can just agree to disagree. I stand by my previous post where I questioned the
JUDGEMENT of any person that injects something into their body without being under the direct supervision of a Doctor. Just plain dumb in my book.
Kona
I got in contact with a friend that used to treat me at the sports medicine facility at the University that I played Division I baseball for. This is some of the information that he sent me on the dangers of steroids...
Many young athletes are convinced that the only way to become a champion is by using anabolic steroids. Coaches and others can begin to counteract the attraction of these drugs by helping educate the athletes about the potential harmful consequences of anabolic steroid use.
LIVER DAMAGE
Nearly all of the anabolic steroids taken by mouth cause abnormal liver function. These abnormalities range from the common, but usually harmless, leakage of enzymes from the damaged liver tissue into the blood to rare, but very serious, liver cancer and liver bleeding.
The appearance of liver enzymes in the blood ordinarily ceases when athletes stop using steroids, but liver cancer and bleeding have caused deaths among a few athletes who have abused anabolic steroids.
RISK OF HEART DISEASE
Many athletes who abuse anabolic steroids have high blood pressure (hypertension). They also have decreased amounts of HDL-cholesterol, the so-called "good cholesterol," that helps the body avoid the buildup of fat in the walls of the arteries. Both high blood pressure and low HDL-cholesterol increase the chance of having serious heart disease at a relatively early age.
SEXUAL & REPRODUCTIVE DISORDERS
Many male athletes who take large doses of anabolic steroids have shrunken testicles. They also have such poor sperm production that virtually all of them who have used steroids for six months or more are sterile. Sperm count may not return to normal for seven months or more after discontinuing steroid use.
In many men, steroid abuse leads to a feminizing growth of the nipples that can only be corrected with surgery. In most women, on the other hand, steroid abuse causes shrinkage of the breasts to more masculine proportions.
Other masculinizing effects of anabolic steriod use by females are very common, including the growth of facial hair, thinning of head hair and possible baldness, deepening of the voice, irregularity or absence of the menstrual cycle, enlargement of the clitoris, and shrinking of the uterus.
Baldness, growth of facial hair, enlargement of the clitoris, and deepening of the voice usually cannot be reversed, even when steroids are no longer used these are permanent changes.
PSYCHOLOGICAL DISORDERS
Among the more commonly reported psychological effects of steroid abuse are increases or decreases in sex drive, increased aggressive behavior, mood elevation or depression, and "psychological addiction" to the drugs.
More rare are schizophrenia and psychotic behavior patterns. For example, steriod abusers have been known to head-butt the windshields out of cars or to purposely crash their cars into trees.
Even more frightening are claims by several athletes charged with murder that they committed then under a "steroid rage."
EFFECTS ON GROWTH
The long bones of young people up to 18 years and sometimes older are still growing. If young athletes abuse anabolic steroids, the growth plates of those bones may close earlier than usual. This diminishes the height they could have reached as adults had they not taken steroids.
As you can see steroids are far from healthy, but that is not, and never was my point. As I stated in my previous posts, I do not have to be an expert to know that steroids will ruin all chances of being an LE officer.
As for the comment made by Dimas... I was the popular jock in highschool and college. My experience with steroids was, the little 5'5" nerd weakilngs, like yourself, that got sick of being shoved in lockers, started taking steroids after highschool, so that they would never be picked on again....So, so, sad :'(
Quote from: Kona on Jun 14, 2004, 07:54 AM
Here, let me see if I can help you to understand my point in this whole discussion:
Alcohol = legal
Aspirin = legal
OTC medications = legal
Injecting steroids with a doctor's prescription = legal
Injecting steroids without a doctor's prescription so you can look like Arnold Schwartznegger = illegal
Are you following my drift here? What is your point? Do you want to go back to the days of prohibition? Do you want to make aspirin illegal?
Kona
No, my point is that both you and BJ demonize steroids, when in fact they are not as harmful as OTC drugs some of us use on a daily basis.
Quote from: Kona on Jun 14, 2004, 07:54 AM
Uh, maybe because the steroid use is legally prescribed and under the supervision of a licensed physician, not Joe Blow the roid head injecting himself with Dianabol while stareing at pictures of Mr. Universe?
Gee whiz......what do you think the life expectancy is for a person with full blown AIDS? I'd venture to say that they aren't undergoing steroid treatment under a Doctor's direct supervision so they can compete for the Mr. Universe contest, ya think? Maybe, just maybe they are undergoing the treatment to live a longer life, or to possibly improve the quality of their already not too pleasant lives?
Kona
Once again it appears to me that you failed to READ and UNDERSTAND my point and the part where I say that obviously steroids are not "harmful" if they are prescribed to people with obvious complications in health to help them become HEALTHIER.
Quote from: Kona on Jun 14, 2004, 07:54 AM
Two police officers transport an illegal drug across an international border, get caught by U.S. Customs, and you say they were good officers? What is wrong with this picture?
Kona
You reallly can't be this ignorant KONA can You?
Quote from: Kona on Jun 14, 2004, 07:54 AM
You're kidding, right? These officers began using steroids to feel more confident about themselves, and their ability to control someone? That is the most pathetic excuse I have ever heard to rationalize the use of an illegal substance. What ever happened to hitting the weight room, and furthering their knowledge of defensive tactics? Might that not have accomplished the same thing?
Kona
Your statement leads me to beleive that you obviously have no LE experience and have yet to encounter your usual perp high on a drug or the I just got out of prison and am a solid 250lb ex-con who had nothing better to do than hit the weights and learn REAL defensive tactics to survive in prison.
Defensive tactics? ROFLMAO, once again obviously you have no LE experience, because if you did you would realize that the "defensive tactics" you claim they should have practiced are quite useless against people stronger than you or someone who has an altered mental status and does not feel pain.
Quote from: Kona on Jun 14, 2004, 07:54 AM
As far as I'm concerned, we can just agree to disagree. I stand by my previous post where I questioned the JUDGEMENT of any person that injects something into their body without being under the direct supervision of a Doctor. Just plain dumb in my book.
Kona
Once again you failed to READ my post, I am as much against the use of ANY drugs in LE if not more than you.
BJ? LOL did I strike a nerve or something? also your post which you obviously copied off of a "drugs are bad for you brochure" was entertaining and slightly true, but you definitely lost me on the part where you claim that somehow steroids cause users to bang their head through windshields and drive their cars into trees :o I really got a good laugh out of that one. Anyone with half a brain would be smart enough to see through that lie.
Quote from: dimas on Jun 15, 2004, 01:44 AMNo, my point is that both you and BJ demonize steroids, when in fact they are not as harmful as OTC drugs some of us use on a daily basis.
Jesus, what does a guy have to do to get it through your thick skull that I'm not "demonizing" steroids? These drugs have a place in our world treating ailments when properly prescribed by a Doctor. The person I'm slamming is the idiot that injects steroids on his own, without a Doctor's prescription (read: illegally) in order to look like a side of beef. Can you see the difference between the two? Do you require further explanation?
Quote from: dimas on Jun 15, 2004, 01:44 AMOnce again it appears to me that you failed to READ and UNDERSTAND my point and the part where I say that obviously steroids are not "harmful" if they are prescribed to people with obvious complications in health to help them become HEALTHIER.
Oh bravo Dimas, you really showed me! Like I said before, I don't have a problem with steroid use as long as it is under the supervision of a licensed physician, and not some bonehead injecting himself to bulk up.
Quote from: dimas on Jun 15, 2004, 01:44 AMYou reallly can't be this ignorant KONA can You?
Oh by all means, please explain to all of us ignorant people what you would call 2 police officers that tried to bring an illegal drug across an international border, and got busted by the U.S. Customs Service? Oh, that's right......you called them good cops, I forgot. I feel so stupid and ignorant......sorry I even questioned it.
Quote from: dimas on Jun 15, 2004, 01:44 AMYour statement leads me to beleive that you obviously have no LE experience and have yet to encounter your usual perp high on a drug or the I just got out of prison and am a solid 250lb ex-con who had nothing better to do than hit the weights and learn REAL defensive tactics to survive in prison.
Defensive tactics? ROFLMAO, once again obviously you have no LE experience, because if you did you would realize that the "defensive tactics" you claim they should have practiced are quite useless against people stronger than you or someone who has an altered mental status and does not feel pain.
Fair enough. So what is your answer to this problem, if training isn't the answer? Steroids for all my brothers in blue!! You don't have an answer. But please, go ahead and thrill me with your acumen.
Quote from: dimas on Jun 15, 2004, 01:44 AMOnce again you failed to READ my post, I am as much against the use of ANY drugs in LE if not more than you.
No, actually I think I read and understood your post without any problem. The tone of your entire post seems to rationalize the use of steroids without being under a Doctor's care. You rationalize the use of steroids by your fellow officers because they got "thrown around" by a big strong guy, and they need the competitive edge. You rationalize 2 police officers crossing an international border with an illegal drug, and then call me ignorant. In fact, you rationalize and make excuses throughout your entire post. On the one hand you state the above quoted text, and in the same breath you make excuses for your fellow drug using, law breaking officers. Sorry, but to me this seems very contradictory.
Kona
First, before I reply let me catch my breath because I fell off my chair laughing.
" Schizophrenia and psychotic behavior patterns. Steroid abusers have been known to head-butt the windshields out of cars or to purposely crash their cars into trees. Several athletes charged with murder that they committed then under a "steroid rage."
This is without a doubt the funniest and most ridiculous thing I have heard. Buddy if my so-called "friend " told me this I would turn around and run. This is almost as funny as when my polygrapher told me that he could see things that not even my family or wife would know. LOL I still giggle with that one.
If anyone cared to read the long post that I posted everything that steroids cause it is there with detail Good and bad and with medical fact, References, and sources
BJ if you would be so kind as to ask your "friend" for some proof or source of the car windshield occurrences I would love to see it (I wont hold my breath).
Kona, once again let me correct you "Two police officers transport an illegal drug across an international border"
Once again this is NOT an illegal drug they had prescription medication without a prescription that is why they got a ticket from Customs and were let go a few hours later. If not half of Americas seniors that go across the border to Canada to get there Medication would be arrested since some get more quantity or different generics they don't have prescriptions for. Kona another question for you since you seem so black & white on this subject I will take the steroid Dianabol as an example since you mentioned it, this compound comes in both injectable and tablet form. So if I took Dianabol in tablet form will it be ok?? Since IM sure you and 95% of this site has taken some form of prescription drug without a prescription this includes acne medication, birth control, h/s Motrin, sleeping aids, dandruff shampoo etc.... Or do we ban everybody who has used a prescription drug illegally???
DIMAS Im glad you brought a point that alot of people that are not LE don't understand they just could not imagine what these rock monsters look like and the strength and state of mind that there in when they have been freebasing and popping pills for three days straight. Yeah ok let me try my new defense tactics on this 250 lb. excon that just got paroled and knows if he gets caught he's locked up for life since the two slugs I just popped in him didn't seem to slow him down and he is still running towards me with a weapon.
People please get a grip wake up and turn off NYPD blue and what they show you on COPS.
Kona and BJ, I have defintely enjoyed our exchange on this board and am going to offer you both a bit of advice, before taking a stance on a subject and offering a public opinion, take the time to educate yourself a bit about what you are talking about. I still get a kick out of the "mind controlling effects of steroids" which Bj was foolish enough to post.
I can only imagine someone injecting themselves with a steroid and then being overcome by the uncontrollable urge to smash their heads through a window or drive directly into a tree. I am sure the psychiatric community would love to find out about this mind controlling drug.
Thanks BJ, you bring a smile to my face everytime I remember it. ;D
Quote from: Kona on Jun 15, 2004, 03:58 AM
Oh bravo Dimas, you really showed me! Like I said before, I don't have a problem with steroid use as long as it is under the supervision of a licensed physician, and not some bonehead injecting himself to bulk up.
Kona
Kona, I believe that I should explain something to you regarding how steroids are obtained in Mexico. They are obtained by first going to a LICENSED PHYSICIAN, which in turn provides the person with a prescription which they then take to a LICENSED PHARMACY and purchase the drug. Obviuosly you did not know this therefore you can now take the foot out of your mouth.
Quote from: Kona on Jun 15, 2004, 03:58 AM
Oh by all means, please explain to all of us ignorant people what you would call 2 police officers that tried to bring an illegal drug across an international border, and got busted by the U.S. Customs Service? Oh, that's right......you called them good cops, I forgot. I feel so stupid and ignorant......sorry I even questioned it.
Kona
Sorry Kona, but they were indeed very good officers, they made a stupid mistake. They were not out using recreational drugs (infact they did not even drink any alcoholic beverages), they were not out planting evidence, extorting sexual favors, falsifying reports, taking bribes or a pick of other bad habits that officers have across the nation. For the record only the driver of the vehicle got a ticket for the possesion of the steroids. They were not even handcuffed or booked.
Quote from: Kona on Jun 15, 2004, 03:58 AM
No, actually I think I read and understood your post without any problem. The tone of your entire post seems to rationalize the use of steroids without being under a Doctor's care. You rationalize the use of steroids by your fellow officers because they got "thrown around" by a big strong guy, and they need the competitive edge. You rationalize 2 police officers crossing an international border with an illegal drug, and then call me ignorant. In fact, you rationalize and make excuses throughout your entire post. On the one hand you state the above quoted text, and in the same breath you make excuses for your fellow drug using, law breaking officers. Sorry, but to me this seems very contradictory.
Kona
Well Kona, for the record if you read above then you would realize that they indeed were under a doctors care as they had to go to a doctor to get the prescription DOCTOR, MD, Licensed Physician, NOT at DRUG DEALER.
Secondly, yes they did break the law, but they only got a TICKET, perhaps we should fire all officers who receive TICKETS for "breaking the law". Now had they been Drunk and crashed into a parked car, light post or another vehicle, they would have been classified as having a "problem" and received counseling, not lost their jobs.
Thirdly, I am not excusing their use of steroids, I was merely sympathizing with them as I can imagine how much a person's confidence in his/her abilities will suffer if unable to hold their ground. Until you actually become an LE officer and realize how difficult and near impossible it is to overcome a larger non-compliant person, you will never understand what these officers went through. I merely find it ignorant to state your position on something you know nothing about. However, this is a public board and people can post as they please, but your credibility is the one that suffers in the end.
Lastly, I apologize to all those that have read these long exchanges between us unless ofcourse you learned something and would like to thank Mr. Roid info for taking the time to attempt and educate some people with FACTUAL information, not fairy tales about mind controlling hormones :o
WTF? Is what I'm reading possible? Cops should be able to break the law to beable to stop the bad guy? Maybe instead of taking steroids we should allow cops to drop PCP before each shift so that they will have the "super strength" they need to stop the bad guys. Or better yet we shouldn't even ask cops to abide by any laws what-so-ever. WTF are you talking about? This is about the most idiotic thing that I have ever heard. Let me say this again STEROIDS ARE ILLEGAL. Dimas, if you really are LE, which I highly doubt, you bought in to upholding the law when you took the job, and now all you talk about is breaking it. It's a-holes like you that give LE a bad name.
As far as the information provided to me, I can only ask people to take a good look at it and use it as they please. If you don't believe it, and think it is a crock, that is your decision. There is a thing called "roid-rage" >:( and I have talked to several people at my gym and through-out college (mostly football players) that have experienced this change in their behavior. Most people that I have come in contact with do not want to deal with the potential consequences of taking steroids.
Dimas and RI, go ahead and keep sticking the needle in your ass, but please stop trying to convince people to make the same mistakes you have. I know you are angry because your hair has fallen out and your dicks have shrank up like shrinky-dinks :o. I'm sure anybody that puts a foreign substance that is potentially dangerous to their health into their body is a very intelligent individual and should be giving medical advise out over the internet. How can you continue to give out this obviously false information? I didn't catch what part of the medical field that either of you work in, what part is it? Just because you find some "information" on the internet does not make it gospel.
At least I took the time to request information from a professional in the sports medicine field. ;)
LOL, BJ, you need to control your temper because you are now writing nothing but nonsense and are making yourself look dumb. It appears that you did not follow any of my advice and have once again made yourself look foolish.
Anyone who has a grasp of the English language and has read any of my posts can clearly discern that I do not CONDONE any drug use and even include alcohol in this. I do uphold the law and merely state that I sympathize with the officers, not that their behavior was correct.
To answer your questions, Yes, I am in Law Enforcement and have been for a few years. As far as my medical training I am also a Paramedic and I studied Kinesiology as a Major, prior to switching to a Pre-Law Major and graduating from college. I also have never felt the need to have to use any anabolic substance as I was fortunate enough to have decent genetics.
Keep on the subject at hand instead of making things up. Your post is full of foolish analogies and deductions that have nothing to do with the subject. As far as the supposed expert whom you asked for information, it appears that he is 1. Very Stupid or 2. Ficticious and you made him up to attempt to make yourself look good. Either way your post and the information contained in it are WAY off track and laughable.
Lastly, your post is very immature, your attacks are unfounded, unnecessary and display your obvious inability to cope with the fact that you made yourself look stupid via your posts and thus have directed your frustration toward MR. Roid and myself.
I believe this is where you and Kona differ in that he manages to maintain his maturity when writing a reply.
WOW!!! Now I have heard it all!! Not only is dimas a police officer, but now a practicing paramedic!! So you have been through the police and fire department academies, WOW!!! AND you are studying to be a lawyer too!! Next thing you will say is that you competed in Mr. Universe! You are truly a piece of work dimas. Not only do you out spew out false information, but you are just an all out liar. I think we can all see who is trying to make themself look good, but you are really making a fool out of yourself. By the way, just because you studied P.E. (i.e. kinesiology) doesn't make you some type of pre-med. That's not even considered a science major, son. ;)
I Finally figured it out, BJ is a comedian!! :P
DIMAS, I will tell you from experience it is useless trying to maintain a logical conversation with BJ since his reading comprehension skills are non existent. I guess hooked on phonics DIDN'T work for him. I would venture to guess that BJ did not pass his psychological for LE. And that's why he is so angry and combative besides the fact you can tell he's a young kid without life experience.
Dimas/Roids,
You're the same guy, right? Allow me to retort.
Quote from: dimas on Jun 15, 2004, 11:53 AMKona, I believe that I should explain something to you regarding how steroids are obtained in Mexico. They are obtained by first going to a LICENSED PHYSICIAN, which in turn provides the person with a prescription which they then take to a LICENSED PHARMACY and purchase the drug. Obviuosly you did not know this therefore you can now take the foot out of your mouth.
Thank you for clarifying this point. You never stated in your previous posts that the officers in question had a prescription for the steroids (this is what you are saying, correct?) However, the point remains that these guys basically tried to circumvent the law here in the USA by going to Mexico to procure the steroids, and then sneak them across the border. They knew they were breaking the law, and they knew they would be in big trouble if they were caught. This does not bode well for two law enforcement officers that are sworn to uphold the laws of the land. The fact remains that they couldn't have gotten their hands on the steroids legally here in the USA, right?
Quote from: dimas on Jun 15, 2004, 11:53 AMSorry Kona, but they were indeed very good officers, they made a stupid mistake. They were not out using recreational drugs (infact they did not even drink any alcoholic beverages), they were not out planting evidence, extorting sexual favors, falsifying reports, taking bribes or a pick of other bad habits that officers have across the nation. For the record only the driver of the vehicle got a ticket for the possesion of the steroids. They were not even handcuffed or booked.
We can just agree to disagree on this point. Stupid mistake is a gross understatement in my opinion. The rest of your quote is just making excuses for the officers, and trying to show everyone here that they aren't so bad compared to all the really bad officers out there.
Quote from: dimas on Jun 15, 2004, 11:53 AMWell Kona, for the record if you read above then you would realize that they indeed were under a doctors care as they had to go to a doctor to get the prescription DOCTOR, MD, Licensed Physician, NOT at DRUG DEALER.
Secondly, yes they did break the law, but they only got a TICKET, perhaps we should fire all officers who receive TICKETS for "breaking the law". Now had they been Drunk and crashed into a parked car, light post or another vehicle, they would have been classified as having a "problem" and received counseling, not lost their jobs.
I don't want to beat this to death, but did they have a prescription from an American Doctor or a Mexican Doctor? Let me guess.....it was a Mexican Doctor, because no American Doctor would have written a prescription for your two buddies, correct? It's not like they were purchasing a drug that was legal in either Mexico or the USA with the intent to save money, like so many of our senior citizens. They were doing it because they couldn't legally get the drug here in the USA.
Did these two dummies even consider the consequences in case they were caught? Did they consider how it might look to the citizens of the community they serve that they were caught bringing a drug across the border that they weren't supposed to? I would have fired both their dumb asses for a total lack of judgement and disregard for the law. Why are you making excuses for these guys?
Quote from: dimas on Jun 15, 2004, 11:53 AM.
Thirdly, I am not excusing their use of steroids, I was merely sympathizing with them as I can imagine how much a person's confidence in his/her abilities will suffer if unable to hold their ground. Until you actually become an LE officer and realize how difficult and near impossible it is to overcome a larger non-compliant person, you will never understand what these officers went through. I merely find it ignorant to state your position on something you know nothing about. However, this is a public board and people can post as they please, but your credibility is the one that suffers in the end.
You're not excusing their use of steroids, you're mearly sympathizing with them because their confidence was shaken? Maybe it's just me, but you really sound like you're sticking up for these guys, and rationalizing their choice to take steroids.
I'll ask you again......what is the answer to this problem? If not hitting the weight room, and increased training in hand to hand combat skills (as I suggested), then what is your answer? Steroids? Talk about a credibility gap.......How about showing a little bit of credibility here and tell us all what your department is doing to help combat this problem? Or better yet, how are you approaching this problem? I have to tell you that I think your attitude towards this problem as a law enforcement officer is really very disappointing. I would have expected more out of a LE professional.
Quote from: dimas on Jun 15, 2004, 11:53 AMLastly, I apologize to all those that have read these long exchanges between us unless ofcourse you learned something and would like to thank Mr. Roid info for taking the time to attempt and educate some people with FACTUAL information, not fairy tales about mind controlling hormones :o
Yes, I'm sure everyone here on these boards will be lining up to thank you/Roids for all your "facts."
Bottom line in this whole thread is: if you injected steroids without a prescription in your lifetime, it will be a disqualifiying event for most, if not all police departments in the USA, regardless of how much you/Roids profess their safety.
Kona
Kona,
1. "Everyone here on these boards will be lining up to thank you/Roids for all your "facts."
Once again let me correct you these are NOT my facts. They are published medical journals, books and doctors opinions. Which you can look up yourself. :-X
2. Let me ask you for the 3rd time since you haven't answered me and you stand so firm on your opinion of whoever has INJECTED them self's roids w/o prescription should not be eligible for LE. If someone took oral roids (tablets) instead of injection should they also be banned? And if so, would it be fair to ban everyone applying that has used any type of medication without prescription? This includes: acne med., dandruff shampoo, birthcontrol, h/s Motrin, h/s Tylenol, nasal decongestant, contact lenses ETC... Since most of these medications also cause side effects if administered incorrectly? :'(
Quote from: BlackJhack on Jun 15, 2004, 07:37 PMWOW!!! Now I have heard it all!! Not only is dimas a police officer, but now a practicing paramedic!! So you have been through the police and fire department academies, WOW!!! AND you are studying to be a lawyer too!! Next thing you will say is that you competed in Mr. Universe! You are truly a piece of work dimas. Not only do you out spew out false information, but you are just an all out liar. I think we can all see who is trying to make themself look good, but you are really making a fool out of yourself. By the way, just because you studied P.E. (i.e. kinesiology) doesn't make you some type of pre-med. That's not even considered a science major, son. ;)
BJ, have you no sense of logic or deductive ability?
1. Yes, I went throught the state mandated LE academy.
2. I put myself through EMT school on my own time, believe it or not there are actually EMT schools that are not "firefighter academies" and for the record you should know that firefighters are not all Paramedics, but usually they are trained as first responders as the paramedic curiculum is quite long. Of course you wouldn't know any of this because you are not a LE officer or a firefighter.
3. ALL kinesiology programs result in a Bachelor of SCIENCE. Ofcourse this is something that once again escapes your comprehension. Yes, Kinesiology prepares you to be a P.E. (Physical Education)coach, However, we are talking about steroids which are a drug that has an effect on PHYSICAL PERFORMANCE.
4. Pre-Law is something a University will usually do to have your course curriculum "fit in" with classes that will either prepare you for law school or have something to do with the law. I.E. There are criminal justice whose degree can either prepare you for a Police, Corrections, Probation, Counseling or Law career by having you take courses that fit in with your chosen field. Perhaps in your mind a person can only be good at or choose one field of study, but believe it or not many of us are actually capable of studying and being good at more than one thing.
I am sorry BJ, but you just seem to dig yourself into a bigger and bigger hole. Look at your posts, they aren't well thought out or rational. Take a deep breath, relax and read them for yourself and ask yourself if those are posts made by a mature individual ready to be a LE officer. Is that the kind of professionalism you would want displayed by an LE officer.
Kona,
I am not Mr. Roid info, if I was going to state a position I would do it openly with DIMAS. I am however, greatful he is posting as I would most likely be too lazy to look up the technical info he has posted with references to post them up for only two guys to learn.
QuoteI'll ask you again......what is the answer to this problem? If not hitting the weight room, and increased training in hand to hand combat skills (as I suggested), then what is your answer? Steroids? Talk about a credibility gap.......How about showing a little bit of credibility here and tell us all what your department is doing to help combat this problem? Or better yet, how are you approaching this problem? I have to tell you that I think your attitude towards this problem as a law enforcement officer is really very disappointing. I would have expected more out of a LE professional.
There is no one solution to the problem. I was the co-facilitator for the
Officer Safety course at the academy and can honestly tell you that while the hand to hand skills may work on your avg citizen, they are quite useless against a larger unwilling oponent. I have also looked into other nationally recognized restraint techniques/programs such as PMAB and CPI and found that they are even more pathetic.
Before working in LE I was a Mental Health Technician at a treatment center and got my first great wake up call. It often took several of us Techs to restrain only one "acting out" individual and even then a nurse was necessary to administer a cocktail to calm the person as they were likely to either escape our grasps or break their own bones, rip their own tendons and muscle in an attempt to get away from us. Now mind you that at the facility there were at least 8 of us per shift who could immediately respond. Out in the field it will often only be one officer with back up minutes away.
Rodney King and all the other examples of "police brutality" have had a very detrimental effect on the manner in which LE individuals can use force. Such as you are only allowed to use your ASP on limbs, not the body or head. Mace is a tricky one, as we have found that often it also gets in the officers eyes and blinds them as well. "closed hand defensive strike" is the politically correct term for when an officer punches someone, but to be honest most officers avoid using this like the plague due to fear of losing their jobs.
Female officers are usually great when dealing with most people because they have learned through time to use verbal deescalation techniques due to their lack of physical strength. Unfortunately, verbal deescalation does not work on the con looking to do hard time and then the officer is in for a real fight for their life.
What are departments/my department doing? there really isn't much they can do. The logic is quite simple in physical incidents the larger individual will almost always win. Almost all departments either offer a reduced gym membership or offer gyms in each station for their officers. The problem here is trying to find the energy to work out when working 50-60hr weeks and secondly a person's genetices/ability to actually make gains when working out. LE officers are not allowed to use Karate or guage out eyeballs or any of a plethora of things Joe-criminal will use to get away. If anything LE departments are more worried about a law suit and public frenzy resulting from the use of excessive force than having an officer get beat down. It all comes down to simple economics.
Many of you who join LE will often get a huge wake up slap in the face. I have been very lucky in my career that I have never lost control of a situation, this is not to say that I have not been punched or given a ride for my money, but I was fortunate enough to always control the situation/person in the end and I always remember feeling very shaken up and scared for my life. Now imagine how the officers who actually lose a confrontation must feel. When I speak of the officers that got caught I by no means say they should be exonerated, they got caught and the punishment was probably appropriate. What I am saying is that I can understand their decision to use them but do not agree with it.
I hope I answered your questions.
Quote from: Mr. Roid info on Jun 15, 2004, 10:45 PMLet me ask you for the 3rd time since you haven't answered me and you stand so firm on your opinion of whoever has INJECTED them self's roids w/o prescription should not be eligible for LE. If someone took oral roids (tablets) instead of injection should they also be banned?
Why do you care so much about my opinion of illegal steroid use? My opinion doesn't matter. The police department's hiring board sets the criteria for what is or isn't acceptable past drug usage, not me. Any police department that I am familiar with has listed illegal steroid use (injectable) as a disqualifying event. Whether or not orally taken steroids is a disqualifying event.....I don't know. But if it were, I wouldn't have a problem with that.
My opinion, if you must know, is that anybody that has taken steroids (injectable or oral) without a doctor's prescription is an idiot that lacks the basic judgement required to be a police officer. That's my opinion, if you don't like it, I don't care.
Quote from: Mr. Roid info on Jun 15, 2004, 10:45 PMAnd if so, would it be fair to ban everyone applying that has used any type of medication without prescription? This includes: acne med., dandruff shampoo, birthcontrol, h/s Motrin, h/s Tylenol, nasal decongestant, contact lenses ETC... Since most of these medications also cause side effects if administered incorrectly? :'(
Use a little common sense here, ok? If an applicant told me that he had used and abused Percodan or Vicodin on a regular basis in the past, I wouldn't have a problem disqualifying them. If an applicant borrowed someone else's dandruff shampoo, or Motrin, I think I could cut them some slack, since you can buy most of this stuff OTC anyway. Does that answer you question?
Kona
Quote from: dimas on Jun 16, 2004, 12:59 AMWhen I speak of the officers that got caught I by no means say they should be exonerated, they got caught and the punishment was probably appropriate. What I am saying is that I can understand their decision to use them but do not agree with it.
Fair enough. You have your way of looking at this, and I have mine.
Kona
Dimas, I am only going to give you this free lesson in "schooling" once, so pay close attention.
First, you have just proven yourself to be a liar, because you said that you are a paramedic, but now you are saying that you are an EMT(which is it?). To become a paramedic, you must go through the fire academy. I never said that all firefighters were paramedics, it's actually the other way around. Most paramedics have a medical background which in many cases they have obtained their LVN or RN license. If you take a city such as Los Angeles all paramedics are firefighters first. I know that since you live in Mayberry (Population 12) they probably do things different there.
Next you state that you obtain a BS degree when you major in PE. That does not make it a science major. If you had really attended college you would understand that PE is not considered a science related field and even if you receive a BS in it (which isn't always the case) that doesn't make you a doctor or a scientist. Even if you do major in a science related field you can still receive a BA, depending on the classes you choose and if you decide to select a minor, or, if you do not wish to select a specialty in that major (i.e. biology is a BA, microbiology is a BS). This way you control the degree you will receive (you can find this information out from any college counselor). So when you say that ALL P.E. majors result in a BS, you are wrong.
Lastly, when you say "pre-law". Anything you major in can be "pre-law". What really counts is your grades and what you score on the L-SAT. Most law students don't even major in criminal justice or criminology. They major in subjects like history and poly-sci.
Dimas, you have only established yourself as a liar and mis-informed wind-bag. How are we supposed to believe anything you say when you can't even tell the truth about who you are? Do you hear that flushing sound? That is you credibility going down the toilet. ;)
Roids,
You like to talk about my lack of reading comprehension skills, again I have 3 words for you... there, their, and they're. ;)
BJ, you can't really be that stupid can you? Once again THINK before you post, because you continue to make yourself look really bad.
1. You state that one has to go through the fire academy to be a paramendic? NO, you go through EMT school to become a paramedic, the fire academy teaches you how to fight fires, extricate and the other tasks that firefighters do and maybe teaches them at the EMT-B level. For your information once again to become a paramedic you go to EMT SCHOOL, you get your First Responder or EMT-B(most firefighters are either one of these), then EMT-I and then finally your Paramedic certification. FYI, I attended TEXAS TECH a medical school to get my paramedic certificate, not a firefighter academy. So much for your ignorant statement that ALL paramedics are firefighters first.
Paramedics are now LVN's and RN's? this is has to be the most stupid thing I have ever heard(your steroid side-effect post is actually #1). An LVN and especially an RN are more specialized vocations than a Paramedic. That is why LVN's and RN's are PAID more than paramedics. THINK before you POST. LVN's and RN's may have started their careers as Paramedics and then continued to study to become a nurse, but a nurse does not study to become a Paramedic as they are already qualified to do everything a Paramedic can and MORE.
2. Since you don't have a degree and are not a Law Enforcement officer, I find it amusing that you attempt to lecture me about school as I did infact graduate from college with honors. No, not a mail order college, but a state institution. READ my posts again, words make sentences which then make paragraphs and if you manage to comprehend it all then you might realize what an fool you are making yourself out to be.
3. Either you really are dumb or you are distorting information in a sad attempt to make yourself look like you are making a point. I'm sorry but anyone naive enough to post that steroids are mind controlling drugs definitely needs to go back to school to learn comprehension, deduction and logic.
Keep to the facts when trying to make a point. You consistently call me a liar, yet I have not written a single lie. The only way you are even making any points in this discussion is by altering the interpretation of what is written to fit what you are trying to say, this is why I believe you need help in the comprehension department. If you ever do become a cop, remember that you do not have the option to interpret an event as you want to, but have to stick to the facts at hand.
Sorry BJ, but it seems to me that the one that needs to be "schooled" is actually you. It amazes me how many times you have posted just to insult or rip people down. It seems to me that you have real psychological issues to include anti-social behavior. It does not amaze me that you have not been able to work in LE.
Mayberry, ouch, yeah you really got me with that one. Grow up BJ.
Dimas,
I think you just showed everybody on the site what an angry person you are. You didn't address any of the topics at hand. I have so much that I could say about your last post, but I will refrain. Just relax, breathe and enjoy the weekend! ;)
Quote from: BlackJhack on Jun 17, 2004, 02:16 PMDimas,
I think you just showed everybody on the site what an angry person you are. You didn't address any of the topics at hand. I have so much that I could say about your last post, but I will refrain. Just relax, breathe and enjoy the weekend! ;)
No, not angry at all, but I am disappointed. I find it disheartening that a future LE candidate (YOU) would show such lack of civility and reason. It appears to me that almost all your posts are written with the intent to insult and degrade the previous poster. infact I am a quite happy person and even happier because it appears I finally got you to be quiet. But of course you will come back and post something not making any sense, make unfounded and unnecessary personal attacks and once again display to all what an inappropriate demeanor you have by using expletives in place of well thought out argument backed by facts.
As for your lies, well you lied again.
QuoteYou didn't address any of the topics at hand.
Actually, yes, I did address the topics relating to your last post and here is one topic I forgot to address in one of you prior posts as well in which you wrote:
QuoteWOW!!! Now I have heard it all!! Not only is dimas a police officer, but now a practicing paramedic!! So you have been through the police and fire department academies, WOW!!!
I am not sure if it is ignorance or jealously that appears to motivate your ramblings, but I have a particular site I would like you to see regarding LE officers that actually go through both academies as their training requirments.
I guess you now have heard and seen it all. Enjoy and hopefully learn to think before you post.
http://ci.alamogordo.nm.us/DPS/NewPage/TRAINING%20AND%20RECRUITING.htm
Even though it is only Thursday come the weekend I will make sure to enjoy it. Hopefully you will use your time constructively and use it to learn so that you can actually contribute a decent, thought out argument.
Dimas, keep up the good work. You are BY FAR the more logical, rational, knowledgable, intellectual, and realistic one. Your opinions and advice are much more coherent and informative than those other 2 individuals. Your right Dimas, the one that is winning the discussion never resorts to personal insults as the other 2 are. It's known in philosophy as an ADD-Homonym, and the people using ADD-HOMONYMS are the ones LOSING the arguement.
P.S. Kona, if it was up to you, anyone who ever smoked pot, got excessively drunk, or took a girlfriends motrin for pain would not get into LE. A person's judgement may change for the better over a period of time. Just because a person did something unhealthy 10 years ago, and used bad judgement while doing it, does not mean they still have poor judgement. You make no sense, and are totally judgemental and unforgiving. Most people like yourself are incredible HIPOCRITES, doing the very thing you tell other not to.
There are fantastic police officers out there who used poor judgement when they were younger(before they were cops) but they learned from there mistakes and bad judgement and became great people. They now turn people away from the very behavior, that was at one time, extremely detrimental to them. There own bad experiences have saved others from doing the very same awful thing.
I hope you never do anyhting wrong KONA, you may not be able to live with yourself.
Quote from: stud on Jun 18, 2004, 06:17 AMP.S. Kona, if it was up to you, anyone who ever smoked pot, got excessively drunk, or took a girlfriends motrin for pain would not get into LE.
Gee Stud, I don't remember saying anything of the sort. What I do remember saying was I wouldn't want someone on the force that injected an illegal drug, or used prescription drugs like oral steroids, percodan, vicodan and the like without being under proper medical care. Bottom line here is......it's not up to me to decide what prior drug usage is ok, and what isn't. Each individual police dept sets their own criteria......end of story.
Quote from: stud on Jun 18, 2004, 06:17 AMA person's judgement may change for the better over a period of time. Just because a person did something unhealthy 10 years ago, and used bad judgement while doing it, does not mean they still have poor judgement. .
Ok, fair enough. Let's say for example (to test your theory), a police applicant told you that 15 years ago he used to shoot up heroin to get high. Then, 10 years ago he got religion, kicked his dope habit, and now counsels kids about the evils of drugs. He's a changed man now, hallelujah!! That was a long time ago; he's not that man anymore, because he doesn't display the bad judgement that he once did. How would you feel about this guy joining your police department?
Quote from: stud on Jun 18, 2004, 06:17 AMYou make no sense, and are totally judgemental and unforgiving. Most people like yourself are incredible HIPOCRITES, doing the very thing you tell other not to.
If you mean judgemental.....as in the capacity to form an opinion by distinguishing and evaluating.....yes I am. Unforgiving? Maybe to criminals and druggies, but not to a person that made an honest mistake.
Most people like myself are hypocrites? Ouch, that hurt. Please take it easy on me Stud. By "most people" I assume you mean other judgemental and unforgiving mean people like me, right?
Quote from: stud on Jun 18, 2004, 06:17 AMThere are fantastic police officers out there who used poor judgement when they were younger(before they were cops) but they learned from there mistakes and bad judgement and became great people. They now turn people away from the very behavior, that was at one time, extremely detrimental to them. There own bad experiences have saved others from doing the very same awful thing.
I'm sure that there are many good officers like these. The problem is how you define "bad judgement," and where you draw the line between acceptable and unacceptable past behavior. Is it acceptable to have shot heroin when you were an 18 year old college student, or is a drunk driving ticket crossing the line? I have my own opinions regarding what is acceptable or not, and I post my opinions here on these message boards. You can take them, or leave them......I really don't care. Ultimately, the only thing that does matter is the police department's hiring policy.
Kona
Quote from: stud on Jun 18, 2004, 06:17 AMDimas, keep up the good work. You are BY FAR the more logical, rational, knowledgable, intellectual, and realistic one. Your opinions and advice are much more coherent and informative than those other 2 individuals. Your right Dimas, the one that is winning the discussion never resorts to personal insults as the other 2 are. It's known in philosophy as an ADD-Homonym, and the people using ADD-HOMONYMS are the ones LOSING the arguement.
Stud, I am not quite sure if you are really complimenting me or being sarcastic. ??? It is quite early so my brain isn't at 100% yet. Either way, welcome to the discussion board.
As far as winning, I am not really out to "win" this per se, as much as I am really out to make people learn to use their minds. Ignorance is one of the most dangerous shortcomings out there.
As for Kona, while he and I have VERY different opinions on subjects it appears that we have both agreed to disagree on the subject without resorting to unnessesary personal attacks. I welcome argument from a person like Kona any day, as I feel it is worth it when they at least take the time to procees the information and acknowledge it. Unfortunately no matter how sure I am about the said officers in my arguments having been good officers he will not accept their mistake. Fortunately it is not his opinion that matters but that of the people who worked with these officers.
As for BJ, well there will always be people like him in life and all one can do is try to help them learn or ignore them, the latter will however, always continue to contribute to their ignorance. For the record, BJ, while a person's spelling is a good indicator of their level of intelligence, people should be open enough to know that some VERY intelligent people are in fact bad spellers and even some very good spellers occasionally misspell a word or two. While BJ has mastered the ability to use a spell checker and dictionary, lets hope he one day masters the ability to use common sense.
Have a safe and happy weekend.
Quote from: Kona on Jun 18, 2004, 09:50 AM
Gee Stud, I don't remember saying anything of the sort. What I do remember saying was I wouldn't want someone on the force that injected an illegal drug, or used prescription drugs like oral steroids, percodan, vicodan and the like without being under proper medical care. Bottom line here is......it's not up to me to decide what prior drug usage is ok, and what isn't. Each individual police dept sets their own criteria......end of story.
Ok, fair enough. Let's say for example (to test your theory), a police applicant told you that 15 years ago he used to shoot up heroin to get high. Then, 10 years ago he got religion, kicked his dope habit, and now counsels kids about the evils of drugs. He's a changed man now, hallelujah!! That was a long time ago; he's not that man anymore, because he doesn't display the bad judgement that he once did. How would you feel about this guy joining your police department?
If you mean judgemental.....as in the capacity to form an opinion by distinguishing and evaluating.....yes I am. Unforgiving? Maybe to criminals and druggies, but not to a person that made an honest mistake.
Most people like myself are hypocrites? Ouch, that hurt. Please take it easy on me Stud. By "most people" I assume you mean other judgemental and unforgiving mean people like me, right?
I'm sure that there are many good officers like these. The problem is how you define "bad judgement," and where you draw the line between acceptable and unacceptable past behavior. Is it acceptable to have shot heroin when you were an 18 year old college student, or is a drunk driving ticket crossing the line? I have my own opinions regarding what is acceptable or not, and I post my opinions here on these message boards. You can take them, or leave them......I really don't care. Ultimately, the only thing that does matter is the police department's hiring policy.
Kona
I apologize kona if I offended you. If you are a police officer, then God bless you and keep up the good work. I'm trying to get on right now myself. All police officers are brothers, even if they have a difference of opinion. Cops fight the good fight, protecting and serving human beings, it's a magnificent endeavor. I hope I get on soon and join the rest of the brave men who put their lives on the line every day to keep this country a safe place to live.
COPS= COURAGEOUS ONES PROTECTING and SERVING.
DIMAS,
I must congratulate you, I think you actually got BJ to think before he speaks. Your a more patient man than I am I gave up on him after my third post. LOL
But I must admit I still have faith in BJ that he will make a triumphant comeback. LMFAO
KONA are you from Nampa, ID ?
Quote from: Mr.ROID INFO on Jun 20, 2004, 04:45 AMKONA are you from Nampa, ID ?
Is that a geographical place? If it is.........the answer is no. I reside in California.
Kona
PDD-Fed,
Any cop, any good street cop that is, would never have posted a response and added that they are the law. if you were really in law enforcement, I doubt very much you would have taken the bait, but you did. You responded with hostility and anger. I could see it in your sentences.
Most real cops and polygraphists don't post messages on these boards.....all they do is sit back and read. And wait.....
Mike_C.
MOST departments in metro Atlanta view everyones' past drug usage on a CASE by CASE basis.
Being a LEO myself I suggest to you TO TELL THE TRUTH!!! If you lie now, you will lie later!!!
Quote from: piglikedonut on Jul 26, 2005, 10:09 PMMOST departments in metro Atlanta view everyones' past drug usage on a CASE by CASE basis.
Being a LEO myself I suggest to you TO TELL THE TRUTH!!! If you lie now, you will lie later!!!
I agree. If you are planning to lie you should not be trying to get a job in law enforcement. I believe the information in TLBTLD should be used by truthful people who are trying to protect themselves from a false positive. It is unfortunate that there is no way to release that information to just those people without making it available to everyone else at the same time.
As a law enforcement officer your credibility means a lot. If your peers catch you in a lie even once you are going to never live it down. If rumors of your dishonesty make it to the state's attorney's office you will likely not be called to testify. Once that happens you can rest assured that defense lawyers will hear about it and start calling you constantly, and if that happens you will have a hard time maintaining this career.
Yes, by all means wait until AFTER you are a cop before you start lying. After all, the Supreme Court has ruled that you can lie during interrogations.
And Polygraphers often lie to catch the examinee in a lie. It seems to me that the TRUTH is in short supply in LE.
Quote from: railroaded on Jul 28, 2005, 05:09 PMYes, by all means wait until AFTER you are a cop before you start lying. After all, the Supreme Court has ruled that you can lie during interrogations.
And Polygraphers often lie to catch the examinee in a lie. It seems to me that the TRUTH is in short supply in LE.
It's unfortunate that your experiences seem to have led you to the belief that the truth is in short supply in law enforcement. My experiences indicate that it is not.
There are flawed individuals in every profession. By and large, in my experience, police officers are honest people with strong moral beliefs who have a genuine desire to help. None of them are perfect, but most of them strive to do their best.
Please allow to qualify my bitter-sounding comments. I know there are honest, good-hearted people working in law enforcement...especially patrol officers.
I have always tried to teach my kids that cops are the good guys.
Until recently, I always had nothing but a good impression of law enforcement. I had been in trouble quite a lot in my youth and had negative dealings with the police, but that was my fault and I held nothing against any of the officers who were doing their jobs.
But these State's Attorney investigators are a whole other matter. I have caught them in numerous lies from day one. For instance, they asked if I have porn on my computer and I replied "Yes". The next day he called my attorney and quoted me as saying "I have a big problem with porn". :-[
They asked my kids to the CAC for their interviews and told them "We just want to protect you from who ever is hurting you. Tell us about your father." :-[
To my wife while executing the search warrant: "It doesn't bother you that your husband has porn on his computer?" :-[
During the execution of the search warrant, one of the investigators took a law code book that I had in my library, HIGHLIGHTED and UNDERLINED certain codes and sentences and left it open at my desk in front of my chair. :-[
I have never been made to feel so degraded in my life.
Railroaded,
It would seem likely that your experience has made you cynical regarding police, and justifiably so. There are officers who break the rules and act inappropriately. There are also procedures in place to deal with them.
If you feel that you have been treated unprofessionally or illegally by any police officers then you can file a complaint. If you feel the police department is not handling your complaint in the proper fashion you can go to city hall. Since you already seem to have a lawyer he could probably give you more advice on this.
In most departments the bad officers do not outnumber the good. Honest, professional police officers have even more incentive than you do to get control of and/or eliminate the bad police officers in their ranks.