Well Jitters it looks like all the misinformation George puts out didn't help you very much. And it also looks like the polygraph just did a good job of weeding out an obvious loser like you.
Hey Jitters don't mind what this insensitive jerk says. It is absolutely normal to be extremely emotional after something like this.
Most of us here have been through it. You feel like a complete piece of garbage when you know you were truthful and someone calls your integrity in question.
For this reason the polygraph is inadmissable in court. Look what happened to George. I quite hardle think anyone could call his selfless service to OUR country deserved what he received by the FBI.
Unfortunately this is the system in place and the only way we can change it is to keep fighting.
My prayers are with you that God may bring you some peace and the ability to press on and know not to give up your pursuit of a law enforcement career.
God Bless You!
Jitters,
Did you use countermeasures? From the gist of your post, I'm assuming that you didn't.
Don't let your DQ get you too down on yourself. Learn from it, and press on.
Good luck.
Kona
Quote from: Jitters on Mar 05, 2004, 07:24 PMI just received a letter stating I am not eligible for employment based on the polygraph component of the hiring process.
It should be noted that in the DoDPI Law Enforcement Pre-Employment Test guide (see link on the home page) one of the VERY FIRST instructions to be given the applicant is, and I quote:
Quote "Explain that the polygraph exam is not the sole determining factor in the hiring process (it is used in conjuction with all the other steps in the hiring process to evaluate the applicant's suitability for employment)."
[/b]
Now obviously the polygraph isn't the *sole* determining factor but the intent here is to falsely suggest that failing the polygraph doesn't mean automatic disqualification. It is an exercise in blatantly misleading word games. Why is this manipulation done? For the same reason the other lies (or manipulations) are done. It is believed to improve polygraph accuracy. I agree that it probably does do that. Still, I have a visceral reaction against people being lied to for their own good. Further, it's an additional argument that the polygraph process may make false positives more likely with an informed examinee. At least for one that chooses not to use CM's.
-Marty
Quote from: guest on Mar 05, 2004, 07:31 PMWell Jitters it looks like all the misinformation George puts out didn't help you very much. And it also looks like the polygraph just did a good job of weeding out an obvious loser like you.
Who the hell do you think you are to judge me on a message board? You don't know me you imbecile. Are you denying any possibility of a truthful person failing a polygraph? Are you that naive?
If this machine was the magical marvel you think it is the world would be a totally different place. Imagine the money saved on all these trials, imagine the innocent being guaranteed to go free and the guilty being guaranteed to be punished. No need for a trial, hook them up to the magical lie detector and all is good!
But it is NOT that way is it? Ask yourself why "guest". I admit I did not believe the hype on this site but it made me think. Now I believe it 100%. I thought I could pass without using CM's. I was wrong. I was torn between using them at all, frankly when I did not recognize any control questions I was relieved that I did not have to use them. I did not feel right doing so.
So now that you have proved yourself a total ass, have a nice day.
I apologize to others about my outburst, I had just received the letter and was (still am) pretty PO'd. And of course I got it on Friday after they left for the day and cannot call them to see what the hell happened until Monday.
Quote from: Jitters on Mar 06, 2004, 11:23 AM
I admit I did not believe the hype on this site but it made me think. Now I believe it 100%. I thought I could pass without using CM's. I was wrong. I was torn between using them at all, frankly when I did not recognize any control questions I was relieved that I did not have to use them. I did not feel right doing so.
So now that you have proved yourself a total ass, have a nice day.
jitters,
Your experience saddens me.
It was an example of why I think George should put a warning on the site's main page that it is important that those facing a polygraph not delve into this unless they are prepared to take a lot of time to thoroughly read TLBTLD. Some of the posters here are polygraphers that try to confuse readers in order to protect their craft's secrets. If you have any uncertainty about about how and why polygraphers do what they do you are at a higher risk of being a false positive. It is natural to defer to authority and it is hard for most people, after discovering the dubious practices of polygraphers, to immerse themselves into the field sufficiently to knowledgeably and ethically make decisions. I have found TLBTLD to be obviously partisan (look at the site's name) but quite consistent with other writings on the practice by polygraphers. TLBTLD is threat to polygraphy in more ways than just advocating and describing CM's. It is a threat because knowledge of the information in it tends to undercut the basic assumptions polygraphers make about how an examinee responds. Absent effective use of CM's such knowledge is likely, based on polygraphers own assumptions, to put an examinee at higher risk of being found falsely deceptive.
So let me emphasize this point. If you are facing a polygraph, and decide to read TLBTLD please be prepared to research what is there enough that your understanding of what polygraphers do becomes intuitive. Try to gain enough knowledge that you can mentally place yourself in their shoes and understand why they believe they have to use such practices to uncover truth on the so called relevants. I recommend the National Academy of Sciences' research council's "The Polygraph and Lie Detection" for a non partisan, in depth analysis. There is a free web edition link on the home page.
-Marty
Quote from: Jitters on Mar 06, 2004, 11:23 AM
I thought I could pass without using CM's. I was wrong. I was torn between using them at all, frankly when I did not recognize any control questions I was relieved that I did not have to use them.
So what are you saying? That you are too stupid to use the "countermeasures" George has in his book or that the book is so full of misinformation and bullshit you could not understand it.... or both?
Guest,
Hey, Bozo...who is more stupid--the one who invests up to fifteen weeks learning how to perform quackery or the one who spends an hour to learn how to beat the quack at his/her own game?
Watch your "diction" there Annie. As to beating the quack, it looks like Jitters was singularly unsuccessful at that.
Guest,
No, Bozo...if you will examine Jitters story, you will see that he was neither successful nor unsuccessful in beating the quack--he did not attempt to beat the quack. In fact, the lesson here is that (if we are to believe that Jitters was honest regarding relevant issues--do you see any reason not to?) that one must recognize the quack and prepare to beat him/her at his own game. Not playing the game was Jitter's mistake, it was not playing and losing.
Wrong again Annie. Jitterbug was too stupid to recognize the so-called controls and didn't think he had to use countermeasures because of that. All I wanted to know from Jitters is was why. But you keep to butting in. You really are a pain in the ass as well as being an ignorant bastard.
Quote from: guest on Mar 06, 2004, 09:37 PM
So what are you saying? That you are too stupid to use the "countermeasures" George has in his book or that the book is so full of misinformation and bullshit you could not understand it.... or both?
You speak of stupidity and bullshit, well you wreak of both. Do you have nothing better to do than troll these boards insulting people?
Quote from: Guest on Mar 06, 2004, 10:52 PMWrong again Annie. Jitterbug was too stupid to recognize the so-called controls and didn't think he had to use countermeasures because of that. All I wanted to know from Jitters is was why. But you keep to butting in. You really are a pain in the ass as well as being an ignorant bastard.
WHat amazes me is you come here with this holier than thou attitude yet you act like a total jackass.
"Too stupid"? There was one question I named I thought could have been a control, which everyone agrees was. Other than that I saw none. Every other question was a "did you lie about.......", "did you falsify....". Hardly control questions you imbecile, which are what you would employ counter measures on. I was not out to "beat" the polygraph, I was out to pass it. That was my only mistake. If I ever take another I will be out to beat it.
What I want to know, guest, is why you are being such an ass toward someone that just failed a polygraph while answering all the questions honestly? I have no right to be pissed off? I am not some God damn child molester trying to stay out of jail, I was trying to get into a noble profession as a Law Enforcement Officer. Who the hell do you think you are judging me based on failing this bullshit test? I was suppose to go in there and tell the truth, and I failed. My job was not to identify control questions, it was to tell the truth which is what I did. And you call me stupid for failing, stupid for failing your test that is so accurate that all you have to do is tell the truth. Right.
And you never answered my question genius. If the polygraph was such a technological marvel and so accurate why have trials? If this machine is so magical why not put it to great use and ensure the innocent go free and the guilty pay? Imagine the different world we would be living in if the polygraph was all it is boasted to be. But it is not, and that is fact, not opinion. Tell me something rational to argue this.
Hey Jitters...calm down. I have been where you are and it hurts...deep to the core.
Don't get riled up at what these guys say on this board and do not even entertain them by replying.
I failed 3 polygraphs for being 100 % honest. I told the truth and was accused of being a "chronic" drug user, and a cocaine dealer. I am none of the above.
I was so devastated that it even hurt my family life and my work life. I was so angry and so hurt I wanted to lash out at everyone.
Know this, God has a plan for your life that you may not even understand why or where, or what. Obviously, you were not suppose to work at the agency you applied with. Now, you know what to do in the future and you have great counsel in which to draw from here.
I applied the countermeasures as taught in TTBTLD and did not experience a fasle positive again. Understand that countermeasures does not mean you are lying, it just means you have created a spike on your control measures to ensure your relevants are not going to be at the same level as your controls. You do NOT have to lie in order to do this. I have never lied on a question on a polygraph since and used countermeasures to ensure I do not get a "false positive".
Rest assured that on the next test for the next agency, you will be expecting and anticipating there questions and you will pass with flying colors.
Keep the faith, stay positive, don't let them win by destroying you!
You're in my prayers...God Bless!
I took my first polygraph and and failed. >:( I was accussed of studying anitpolygraph.org and trying to beat the BOX. Until today I have never looked at any material to learn how to "beat the box". I answered all questions with complete honesty. The one question "in question" was "Is there a secret reason you want to join the Irvine Police department?" I thought the question humorous and let out a small chuckle. The examiner then says I had a reaction with the secret question. He kept telling me to breath normally. I was just breathing like I always breath. When I want to relax I have always praticed breathing in for two seconds and breathing out for four seconds. I learned this relaxation technique from studying martial arts for years. I don't think they wanted me to relax.
The examiner then repeated the questions because I had a "reaction" on the "Secret Question" Knowing that the "secret question" was coming up again I think reacted in anticipation of the question.
At the end of the test I was berrated with accusations of having cheated. I took my polygraph in Santa Ana, Ca. The polygrapher is the one who is the liar. I cant help but wonder how many hundreds or thousands of honest people this polygrapher has discredited.
I was very upset. I beat out hundreds of applicants only to be cut at the end.
I challenge any polygrapher out there to explain away the reason the U.S. court systems do not use polygraph tests in court. I challenge the polygrapher whom administered my test to explain this.
Since my failed test I have studied the polygraph testing process and have discovered overwhelming evidence that Polygraph machines DO NOT WORK.
If they did Then Jiiters comments would be very true "If the polygraph was such a technological marvel and so accurate why have trials? If this machine is so magical why not put it to great use and ensure the innocent go free and the guilty pay? Imagine the different world we would be living in if the polygraph was all it is boasted to be. But it is not, and that is fact, not opinion."
I will keep trying and will not give up. Anyone else take the polygraph in Santa Ana, Ca?
So What do you say if the polygrapher askes if you have been to this website and studied the polygraph machine?
Wow, with the responses to these past postings are you sure you are mature enough to have a gun ???