I recently took a poly with a local PD. My exam was interrupted multiple times (people actually knocked on the door and came in). Part of the testing equipment broke during my exam and a replacement part had to be brought in. During the repair, one of the polygraphers made a seuxal joke comparing the length of the cardio cuff to the length of the examiner's male sexual organ. I did not find this funny and filed a complaint. Evidently it was all recorded because the chief of the division told me that they had already been counsled.
I plan on taking my complaint up the chain.
Is this enough for a lawsuit -harrassment ?
Is there a time limit to file in court?
Is there a class action law suit in California?
Any suggestions would be helpful.
QuoteIs this enough for a lawsuit -harrassment ?
I think it would be best to consult with a trial lawyer in your state (which I presume is California) on this. Martindale's free on-line Lawyer Locator service may be helpful in finding one near you:
http://www.martindale.com
QuoteIs there a time limit to file in court?
Undoubtedly there is.
QuoteIs there a class action law suit in California?
To the best of my knowledge, no.
One suggestion that I have at this time is that you write a detailed history of everything that happened during your polygraph interrogation. Who was there, what was said, what interruptions occurred, etc. Such a written record, made as closely as possible to the date of the polygraph examination -- while the information is still fresh in your memory -- may be very helpful in any legal action that you may contemplate.
You might also wish to promptly demand copies of all records pertaining to your polygraph examination (including any video- or audiotape, before it is destroyed or recorded over) under the California Public Records Act (http://www.thefirstamendment.org/capra.html). You'll find examples of such requests here (http://antipolygraph.org/cpra/cpra-002.shtml) and here (http://antipolygraph.org/cpra/cpra-001.shtml). If you get a lawyer, his/her services may be helpful in this regard.
Another action you might wish to consider is to write a formal public statement about your experience (naming the agency, and perhaps the polygraph operator(s) involved) for inclusion on the AntiPolygraph.org Public Statements (http://antipolygraph.org/statements.shtml) page. Documenting polygrapher misconduct such as that which you experienced is an important step toward ending it.
Just because you lied and failed is not grounds for BS complaints.
Now if your complaints are really valid, then you should talk to an attorney.
I did not lie.
Are you telling me that a polygrapher who compares the length of a cardio cuff tube to the length of another polygraphers penis, during my polygraph exam is not grounds for a complaint?
What kind of profession are you in sir?
I don't think a kid graduating from high-school would make such a comment in the work place- how could a certified (whatever that means) polygraph professional (What ever that means) make such a statement?
Are you saying that a polygraph exam where people come in and out of the room has been carried out in a controlled environment?
Are you going to tell us that its ok for construction to be going on in the next room during a polygraph exam? Including drills and table saws?
All of these conditions are violations of the APA code of professional conduct- if that means anything to you.
My first LE boss slid me my badge over his desk, handed me a pistol and said, "Dont forget who you are and what you represent!" I took those words to heart and have always remembered them when that little voice in my conscience told me I was approaching the line.
It seems to me that there is no line for the polygrapher. You know as well as I do that the test is a sham. And let me just say that there is nothing more silly and maddening than to sit there and have a man(sorry, polygrapher) accuse you of something you haven't done. I was the only one present during the entire history of my life- I know what I have and have not done. To hear someone tell me that I did something that I haven't is just plain ridiculous. I wish you could see it yourself - you would see what asses you look like!
My complaint is absolutely valid. Yes, even you the polygrapher are sometimes going to be held accountable for your actions. You see the parties involved were already counsled- so my complaint has merit. But maybe this is one for the courts or for the press. -Polygraph examiner sexual misconduct at police headquarters!!!- do you think that would reflect well on your profession? If someone came forward with this kind of complaint against my department or profession, I would be embarassed. In a formal job interview- for god sake!
You write that "just because you lied and failed is not grounds for BS complaints" yet the complaint was valid ( notice their boss's response). But, you like a true polygrapher- your first reaction was to accuse me of lying.
How would you like your wife to have to take a poly and have the examiner talk about the length of his penis? Ohh, now its different! And you would have me believe that this professional is good judge of character? How could any agency rely on this guys sense of judgement. He is a complete liability!! If I was his boss, I would fire him!!!!
What if you went to a doctor for a diagnosis and he made sexual jokes about the testing equipment to another doctor right in front of you ? Would you have faith in his skills and abilities as patient or as a supervisor? I think not!!
I received a letter today from my local PD Department offering me another polygraph.
It's my chance to clear up any issues from the previous one...Yeah, I just bet that the polygrapher's didn't talk it over. No doubt they are going to serve it to me good if I go back for another.
Of course they want me know from the bottom of their hearts (artificial ones that is) that this offer of a second polygraph doesn't mean that the first one was conducted wrong.
They want me to know that their Unit has conducted themselves above board, except for those jokes about their genitals during my exam.
Aside from that, they are consummate professionals...
P.S. They denied me my request under the California Public Records Act-- no doubt the tapes will be erased....
suethem,
I think your chances for success in any legal action you may contemplate will be stronger if you first exhaust all available administrative avenues of appeal. That would mean accepting the offer of a second polygraph examination.
Your suspicion that they are going to serve it to you good if you go back for a second polygraph interrogation is probably correct. Indeed, there is a good chance that the polygraphers who were involved in your first examination have read your post here and now know your identity.
If I were in your shoes, I think I would use the "complete honesty" approach described in Chapter 4 of The Lie Behind the Lie Detector (http://antipolygraph.org/pubs.shtml) this time, as I believe it would likely put you in the strongest position in any civil action you may take against the department and/or the polygrapher(s) involved.
You might wish to speak with a lawyer about how best to protect your rights before your second polygraph session.
suethem,
Tell them you want to be able to audio-tape the entire test, including the pre-test and post-test interviews.
George, Orolan,
It's 'complete honesty' that got me into this mess...
but I understand what your saying.
If I do go back, I will ask for a complete taping.
suethem,
Just want to be sure about the taping. You bring the recorder and do it, not them. That way they can't refuse to give you a copy. If they have nothing to hide, they have no valid reason to deny your request. If they tell you they'll tape it, tell them in that case they shouldn't mind if you do the same.
Orolan,
I doubt that they will let me bring in a tape recorder. I have been to another agency and they made me leave my backpack (breifcase) outside. They said that applicants could use electronic devices to mess with the test. "I said my bow-tie is really a camera..."
Suethem,
Just a little food for thought, I know of a guy who pursued the "legal route" to get on with my dept because of a bogus exam back in 1999. He was actually able to show bias on the part of the examiner because of some unrelated run-in they had in the past ( apparently 1 had dated the others current wife or something like that, I'm not 100% sure). He was successful in his bid to get his poly waived, but they basically made his life hell once the word got around as to how he got on. Cops tend to believe those who are already cops, at least in and around administrative circles, and the poor guy didn't have chance. He ended up quitting about a month and a half out of the academy because it just got to be too much for him. He got the worst details, his FTO was extra hard on him, etc. I'm sure you've heard of the games they play when they want to get rid of someone.
I wish you the best of luck in your endeavor, I just wasn't sure if you had thought about that yet. I know several who tried to encourage him to "stick it out" and the heat would eventually blow over, but apparently it was more than he wanted to contend with. I don't think it's right for a guy to be treated this way, and his situation was especially bad, he was able to PROVE that the examiner was trying to shaft him and he still got a raw deal. It's one of those things that just make you shake your head in disgust.
If you're successful in getting hired, just know you'll probably have to be somewhat "thick-skinned" for a while.
Good luck!
PK
Poly-killer,
yeah I hear what your saying.
Nobody is going to stop me. Especially not someone who places their faith in polygraphers or what they do.
I like being in the field and working. I think all 'real' LE people do. I can't think of anyone who goes into LE to be a polygrapher. It's where you end up when your a failure. You never see a kid playing in his yard with a metal box, a cardio cuff, and a box full of graph paper...
But where do you put people like polygraphers? They can't all become partial fingerprint experts...
Suethem,
I like your attitude...you should make a good cop. That's funny about the kid playin' in the yard thing...I laughed my butt off...probably cuz it's true. ;D
You're right, even though I have began doing some instructing for extra $$ and because I believe so much training, I love working the street...You will too!
PK
Quote from: suethem on Jun 06, 2003, 02:39 PMI like being in the field and working. I think all 'real' LE people do. I can't think of anyone who goes into LE to be a polygrapher. It's where you end up when your a failure. You never see a kid playing in his yard with a metal box, a cardio cuff, and a box full of graph paper...
At the risk of revealing my identity to any prowling polygraphers... that was one of the hardest things to swallow about failing my exam. The examiner was very clearly incapable of performing the physical duties required of an agent. I hasten to add this was also clearly a result of poor diet and lack of exercise, not some injury sustained in the line of duty. Unless he/she was working deep cover at pie-eating contests or something.
Made me think that it's kind of like putting these people out to pasture. Don't want them to interact with the public, so we'll make sure they spend their days in small rooms poring over charts.
WAH, WAH, WAH. I have never seen such a collection of whining losers in my life. But then George is such a cute pudgy little loser I guess he just attracts them. I'm glad I found this site though - it gives me a good chuckle.
Tough Cop,
Why is it always about sex with you polygraphers?
If you find yourself attracted to George or other men, why don't you act on it, rather than just trying to push it down?
I don't think that there is anything wrong with loving someone of the same sex, as long as the ages are appropriate and consent is given.
I think that you could use some therapy. You say your tough, but what I hear is that you feel week and your hurting inside.
Discovering your 'hidden' self is a first good step in becoming the person you're afraid to be.
Let it out. Let it all out and maybe even have a good cry. If you need help, talk to a counselor. There are other websites where you can talk to people who have been through what your going through.
I think that you will find that the majority of society is willing to accept you as you truely are...
Good luck!!
Sue I didn't say anything about sex. Your mind is in the gutter. All I said was that you losers hang around together and since pudgy little Georgie is your favorite loser leader you are all attracted to him. And you all love to have your pity parties on this public board.
And by the way Suzie is your dirty little mind the real reason you were DQ'd from the PD. Come on you can tell us. Do you really like boys? I have found that most people don't accuse someone of something they are not capable of themselves.
Tough Cop,
You said George is "cute"
You wrote, " Do you really like boys? I have found that most people don't accuse someone of something they are not capable of themselves."
So what are you saying, that you like boys?
I never used the word boy! You did!
Is there something your not telling us? Do you want to have "love parties" with boys? You're frightening me!
I didn't get DQ'd. I am still in the process. People like you should spend more time reading books and less time burning them. Then you would be able to understand the meaing of what's written, instead of concentrating on the 'tough' words. If I am being offered another test, I can't have been DQ'd.
Why do losers like me come to this site?
I come to this site because I am interested in how polygraphy has subverted law enforcement (the fear has always been foreign intelligence operatives- they probably laughed and went home). If LE can be de-railed by a simple money making scheme, like polygraphy, then I think there needs to be a serious look at who makes policy and why.
There is no doubt in my mind that most informed people in LE/Intell know its a crock. So why is it still here? Why is there secrecy about the results of tests? Why can't your average American look at the results themselves and make a judgement? We pride ourselves on living in a free society...
These questions are the ones that bother me.
Also as a consumer and a tax payer I hate to see anyone fall for a bullshit scheme, whether its; spray on hair, weight loss perfume, or polygraph national security. Bullshit bugs me!
If this site is for losers count me in!
Way to go Sue. Admit you are a loser and that this site is for losers - keep on whining. I love to read all you losers' sad stories. And pudgy georgie will hold your hand and smile knowingly - after all he is the biggest loser of all.
Tough Cop,
Great come back, 'Farva'!
Quote from: Human Subject on Jun 06, 2003, 07:42 PM
At the risk of revealing my identity to any prowling polygraphers... that was one of the hardest things to swallow about failing my exam. The examiner was very clearly incapable of performing the physical duties required of an agent. I hasten to add this was also clearly a result of poor diet and lack of exercise, not some injury sustained in the line of duty. Unless he/she was working deep cover at pie-eating contests or something.
Made me think that it's kind of like putting these people out to pasture. Don't want them to interact with the public, so we'll make sure they spend their days in small rooms poring over charts.
Beer bellies are apparently
de rigeur amongst polygraph operators. See the following pictures from the American Association of Police Polygraphists (http://www.policepolygraph.org/)' 2003 seminar:
http://www.polygraphplace.com/docs/aappseminar.htm
;D
George,
Yep, some rather "hefty" guys wandering around that seminar. Two other things amused me. One was the "shredder" used for a suggestion box. Now if that doesn't symbolize the pro-poly community's opinion of suggestions, I don't know what does. The other was the location of the seminar. Very fitting to hold a seminar so close to "Mickey Mouse Land", don't you think?
And what is your waist size George? From the looks of that fat face on your mug shot you tip the scales at about 300.
Quote from: Fed-up Fed on Jun 07, 2003, 01:12 PMAnd what is your waist size George? From the looks of that fat face on your mug shot you tip the scales at about 300.
Ooo. Yet another
scathing zinger from the pro-polygraph crowd.
Keep it up, bud. You're "exhibit A".
Skeptic
Once again one of George's groupies comes to his defense while he avoids answering a simple question. If he is going to talk about the overweight polygraphers why object when his rotund figure is brought up?
And how about you Septic? Are you a tub of lard too?
Fed-up-fed,
I don't care about the size,sex, race, or religion of a polygrapher or anyone else. Its the size, depth and frequency of the lies polygraphers tell that bothers me.
What you do is lie for a living. You know it. Your pissed because your 'profession' had been exposed. You can kick and scream all you want that won't stop anyone here from exposing your 'profession' as a hustle for fools.
Your time, in the only seat of power you have ever held, is coming to an end!
Your anger towards George or anyone else here is a pathetic attempt to strike back at the people who won't buy your lies.
Your like a rat that hisses when someone opens the basement door. Once the lights come on you'll scury away, as your only brave in the cover of darkness...
Now we hear from Sue, the newest of George's groupies.
But seriously, what do you think George weighs? 300???
Or is he just a fat head?
Quote from: tough cop on Jun 06, 2003, 09:31 PMI have found that most people don't accuse someone of something they are not capable of themselves.
Talk about indicting yourself. If this is true, based on my experience polygraphers must be among the scummiest people around.
Quote from: George W. Maschke on Jun 07, 2003, 03:53 AMBeer bellies are apparently de rigeur amongst polygraph operators. See the following pictures from the American Association of Police Polygraphists (http://www.policepolygraph.org/)' 2003 seminar:
http://www.polygraphplace.com/docs/aappseminar.htm
;D
Now that's priceless. Confirms my suspicion that cuckolded men are among the most ardent advocates of polygraphy.
Quote from: Fed-up Fed on Jun 07, 2003, 01:12 PMAnd what is your waist size George? From the looks of that fat face on your mug shot you tip the scales at about 300.
Fed-up Fed,
Your inference that I weigh 300 pounds is in keeping with your being taken in by RETAO's fabricated posting (https://antipolygraph.org/forum/index.php?topic=1116.msg8481#msg8481).
I'm well within U.S. Army height/weight standards. If you'd like to confirm my bodily dimensions for yourself, e-mail me to schedule an iVisit (http://www.ivisit.info) videoconference.
:)
Now George we both know you are too full of shit to be thin. As to being taken in, I think that was a very real cry for help from one of your loser groupies and you should be more sympathetic.
Quote from: Fed-up Fed on Jun 07, 2003, 02:56 PMOnce again one of George's groupies comes to his defense while he avoids answering a simple question. If he is going to talk about the overweight polygraphers why object when his rotund figure is brought up?
And how about you Septic? Are you a tub of lard too?
Don't know about "tub of lard", but I'm around 190#. I'd like to lose about 20 pounds (it's a work in progress).
Is this the best you've got, Fed? Honestly, I know of grade schoolers who can do better.
Lord, I hope you're not really on the federal payroll. It's enough to turn a liberal into a conservative.
Skeptic
P.S. Sorry about the use of multiple-syllable words in my posts -- I know that sort of gets in your way, but it's really hard to avoid. Check out dictionary.com (http://www.dictionary.com) if you have trouble with terms like "payroll".
George said, "Your inference that I weigh 300 pounds is in keeping with your being taken in by RETAO's fabricated posting. "
It's beginning to look like you have a real person with a real complaint about your bullshit book. Are you going to continue to make fun and ignore him just because he is makes you feel uncomfortable?
Quote from: Fed-up Fed on Jun 07, 2003, 10:08 PMGeorge said, "Your inference that I weigh 300 pounds is in keeping with your being taken in by RETAO's fabricated posting. "
It's beginning to look like you have a real person with a real complaint about your bullshit book. Are you going to continue to make fun and ignore him just because he is makes you feel uncomfortable?
And it's truly remarkable how convenient his showing up and making
exactly the same point, rather than arguing his case, is for you...
Skeptic
Quote from: Fed-up Fed on Jun 07, 2003, 10:08 PM
It's beginning to look like you have a real person with a real complaint about your bullshit book. Are you going to continue to make fun and ignore him just because he is makes you feel uncomfortable?
Dear Fed-up Fed,
I have not always agreed with "antipolygraph.org" comments and voiced it accordingly. I do not believe in polygraph pre-screening in employment situations.
Any Federal Law Officer with a reasonable amount of experience would have to question RETAO's statements.
What statements would you lend credibility to regarding his postings?
Regards.
George and his cohorts sure run when they get a complaint. It has to be bogus, no one would complain about King George the Great.
Dear Amused,
I am awaiting some logical input to contradict what has been presented. A "ten year female has admitted to physical activities" which would be construed by most courts of law as " first person admissable evidence" as opposed to polygraph voodoo which is not admissable.
No one here is running away from this newsworthy event. I keep running internet searches to find out more about it. I do not think any law enforcement agency is going to be able to keep a lid on such a front page headlining CNN.com and FOXNEWS.com story. It is truly a made for TV news event.
Time will bear out my presentation. If this does not hit the news within the next week, it did not happen.
Quote from: Amused on Jun 07, 2003, 11:18 PMGeorge and his cohorts sure run when they get a complaint. It has to be bogus, no one would complain about King George the Great.
I'm sorry, Amused (or Fed-up Fed, or whatever your name is), what part of anyone's response to "Retao"'s highly suspect claim would lead a reasonable person to conclude they're "running"?
If you, Fed-Up or anyone else from the pro-polygraph side would like to discuss the validity of polygraph testing, we'd be more than happy to do so.
But I don't think you should expect the childish name calling and game playing to invite anything but scorn from normal people.
Picture this: a curious person does a Google search. On that page they find the link to Antipolygraph.org. They check it out, and to their surprise, they not only learn that polygraphs are controversial, they learn that it's considered snake oil by most scientists. They discover that the National Academy of Scientists concluded the polygraph is worse than useless. They find out that many people have been falsely accused of lying because they failed a polygraph "test". They note that something called "countermeasures" can be easily learned, and that not a single polygrapher has come forward to try and prove the ability to overcome them, despite having been specifically and publicly challenged to do so nearly a year and a half ago.
Surely, though, this information must be one-sided, right? So they check out the message boards. Expecting to find competent, grown up and (at least somewhat) convincing dissent from polygraphers or a one-sided censored forum, they are surprised to discover 1) the message boards are completely uncensored and 2) the only material from polygraphers consists of name-calling, game playing and and occasional hollow boast that is never backed up. And this is the most convincing thing of all. In fact, they tell their friends about the site, and inform others around them that the polygraph is bogus.
So, Amused, Fed-up Fed and others: by all means, continue to play games. Continue to post your childish, content-free insults. Like the polygraph, you guys are worse than useless for the purpose to which you are allegedly put.
Next to an actual court case, you guys are the best thing for the anti-polygraph cause.
Skeptic
And I guess your real name is Skeptic - your mother must have had a real sense of humor.
Hopeless. Utterly hopeless.
Skeptic
"Hopeless. Utterly hopeless. "
Skeptic's lament. Does it refer to George, George's prospects of ever getting a life, or to Skeptic's chances of ever besting me? Perhaps all of the above.
Quote from: Amused on Jun 08, 2003, 01:08 AM"Hopeless. Utterly hopeless. "
Skeptic's lament. Does it refer to George, George's prospects of ever getting a life, or to Skeptic's chances of ever besting me? Perhaps all of the above.
Amused,
You couldn't even get past the very first sentence in my post, so somehow, "besting you" never really occurred to me as an issue. But now that I think about it, you must be right: you're just too much for me.
Care to discuss the validity of the polygraph, and make it 2 for 2? Since I'm no match for you, it should be easy.
Skeptic
Fed-up Fed/Amused
You write as though you believe RETAO is real. You, also, write as though you condon what he did/is doing. That makes you the same pervert that he is and should, also, be castrated with a dull knife. You support this low-life and condem George. The fact that RETAO is bogus but you still support the scenario tells us more than we wanted to know about you. Oh well -- with the stupid screw-ups of our federal LE agencies, I guess we couldn't expect anything else.
BTW, under what administration did you get hired Bush or Clinton?
Batman, Breeze and Public Servant please get on with the feds and raise the IQ of some of these agencies.
Twobits/Septic
You jump to unwarranted conclusions. And as a result you are very wrong. I am hurt.
Boyz:
I swear, sometimes I just don't know what kind of stress you all must be going through at work to be coming in here and posting like silly kids on the playground comparing...the size of their toys.
George really gets under your skin, doesn't he? Why?
Gentlemen:
Save logical discussions for the mature crowd.
Regards,
Seeker
Quote from: Seeker on Jun 09, 2003, 05:44 AMBoyz:
I swear, sometimes I just don't know what kind of stress you all must be going through at work to be coming in here and posting like silly kids on the playground comparing...the size of their toys.
George really gets under your skin, doesn't he? Why?
Gentlemen:
Save logical discussions for the mature crowd.
Regards,
Seeker
He started it.
Skeptic
Quote from: Skeptic on Jun 09, 2003, 02:45 PM
He started it.
Skeptic
How many parents have heard all heck going on upstairs, yell "What's going on upthere?!!", and heard little angelic voices responding, "Nothing, Dad." ?
"He started it." is another one of those "generic answers."
Thanks for the laugh, Skeptic.
Regards
STOP FEEDING THE TROLLS!!! ::)
If any polygraph examiner made a joke about the pneumo tubes and the size of a pecker, he should be fired on the spot - and have his name broadcast on every internet site available. It's assholes like that who give all examiners a bad name. And I guarantee he's had problems before.
Eastwood,
I filed CPRA to get the tapes and charts to help my case, as cited in previous posts, but they have been denied.
That's part of the problem. If polygraphy was a 'science' there would be no need to hide the tapes or charts. Transparency is obviosly not a buzz word that is popular among polygraphers.
On this site you can read hundreds of similar complaints of unprofessional conduct by polygraphers- the majority of which never get investigated. Like a criminal that gets away with a petty crime, they keep pushing the boundaries until they get caught.
Are there good polygraphers out there?
1)When you realize the serious flaw in the PLCQT ( a presummed standard response to a control question) you are left to wonder!
2) Then factor in the abusive questioning and scare tactics.
3)Then add in the NAS report.
4)sprinkle on a few ex-polygraphers that have come clean.
It all adds up to a No!
It's no scientifc, it's not accurate, it's based on deception. It's not an investigative tool- its an electronic 3rd degree- if they don't want you- you will not pass!
Of course these two 'professionals' have had problems before! But with no way to prove my case (no tapes), these guys will just get an in-house slap on the wrist. The department will cover it up and I will end up taking a job with another agency.
I used to view LE as a brotherhood of people who care. I was gung-ho (still am ). But this episode has made me keenly aware that there is corruption within.
I guess some people will do anything for a few $$$!!!