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A forum for free and open discussion of polygraph-related topics
Posted by Burger
- Aug 02, 2001, 01:32 PMQuote from: Anonymous on Aug 01, 2001, 09:53 AM
that has left you stained through your involvement over the last decade. Thank you.
You are absolutely correct. I already have and am taking steps to assist in the banning of polygraph. One observation... As human beings we are all "stained" for whatever reasons, but the good news is Jesus Christ died in order to pay for and remove all those stains. All we have to do to be washed clean is accept Him as Lord and Savior. Even Paul, who pursecuted the Christians before his conversion, received God's grace and mercy. Therefore, by Paul's example and God's mercy, here am I...
Posted by Anonymous
- Aug 01, 2001, 09:53 AMBurger,
If what you say in your last note is true, you have the ability to be a very powerful force for good by helping to ban polygraph screening from this country. I hope you will consider making your identity known and telling your story(ies) to the American people through the media and the U.S. Congress. George and Gino will, no doubt, be able to assist you in reaching those who are currently investigating this subject. You are to be congratulated for your recently revealed insight and and admired for the courage to renounce that which is wrong albeit something that has left you stained through your involvement over the last decade. Thank you.
If what you say in your last note is true, you have the ability to be a very powerful force for good by helping to ban polygraph screening from this country. I hope you will consider making your identity known and telling your story(ies) to the American people through the media and the U.S. Congress. George and Gino will, no doubt, be able to assist you in reaching those who are currently investigating this subject. You are to be congratulated for your recently revealed insight and and admired for the courage to renounce that which is wrong albeit something that has left you stained through your involvement over the last decade. Thank you.
Posted by Burger
- Jul 31, 2001, 07:58 PMQuote from: dimas on Jul 28, 2001, 04:25 AM
John,
I am curious as to why you are so hostile towards burger, making the remark that he flips burgers instead of being a law abiding law enforcement officer is sinking a bit low don't you think?
Dimas,
Don't fret about ol' John. What he doesn't know is that I am a police officer and have been for over twenty years. I've run polygraph exams for over ten years, criminal and pre-employment. The polygraph technique is nothing but a pyschological attack on a persons emotions. What John's problem is, is he actually believes what his polygraph school instructors told him. He either doesn't have the intelligence or lacks the common sense that tells the average person there is more to the story than what the polygraph gurus would have us believe. I think they call that "blind faith"... Anyway, George and Gino are absolutely correct. I was amazed that their book hit the nail squarely on the head. Polygraph is relied upon much too much. It is used as a way to find a quick solution to a problem. There is a problem with that line of thinking. Quick fixes like the polygraph come with a high price tag... How many lives are we willing to ruin because someone in authority wants to take a shortcut in a criminal or pre-employment background investigation? Are there acceptable losses? Not if it's your friend or family member who goes to prison or misses their dream job. The country will be much better off as soon as polygraph is banned.
I know that attacks from polygraphers will come. So be it. No John, my license hasn't been revoked or suspended. No John, I haven't been turned down for membership in any polygraph associations. No, I haven't been sued or anything like that. Call me a hypocrite if you like, but when I decline to renew my license in the immediate future I will be able to say with confidence, I did what was right. John, you can do the same thing... stand up and admit that polygraph is a pysch tool that is no better than chance. You'll be amazed at how much better you feel when you acknowledge the truth and start thinking for yourself.
Posted by John (Guest)
- Jul 31, 2001, 06:17 PMDimas,
I respect your opinion, because you expressed it in a professional manner.
I respect your opinion, because you expressed it in a professional manner.
Posted by dimas
- Jul 28, 2001, 04:25 AMJohn,
I am curious as to why you are so hostile towards burger, making the remark that he flips burgers instead of being a law abiding law enforcement officer is sinking a bit low don't you think?
I would also like you to know that I am A LAW ABIDING LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER, who if you take the time to read my posts has had his share of negative experiences with the Polygraph and its examiners. I do not have anything to hide about my past, anything I have done to break the law I have posted in my polygraph experience post (Taking One For the Team 1 and 2). I do not harbor any hate toward Polygraph examiners, as I do see some need for the confessions made during the examinations, I also feel that because of the way the law works the confessions brought out by the Polygraph often solve cases in which the criminal would have gone free due to a lack of evidence or an inadmisable piece of evidence due to shoddy police work/procedures in collecting and properly obtaining the evidence. The distinguishing factor however is I am all for the "Admission" made during the Poly, but the results of the actual Poly are worthless and should never be the determining factor when deciding a persons future. Its funny actually that you truly believe that anyone who does not pass the Polygraph is automatically a liar, you don't even have enough rationale to give a person the benefit of the doubt especially when the only true liar is the Polygraph examiner!
I whole heartedly believe in Innocent until proven guilty, I have lived in countries where it was the other way around and have seen what a travesty their judicial systems are. Polygraphs are run much in the same manner, You are Guilty until proven Innocent by this machine ,or should I say the examiner because we all really know the machine can't determine anything without the "interpretation" ( and I use this word in the most lax manner) of the examiner. Applicants for Agencies that use the Polygraph for hiring purposes aren't given a fraction of the rights that career criminals are afforded by OUR OWN LEGAL SYSTEM. And all these applicants really want is to enforce the laws and protect the innocent for a mediocre amount of pay while placing themselves in a position to get shot on a daily basis.
On another note I often pondered why the examiners seem to get so angry when they are told someone knows the inner workings of their trade. Then I remembered all the magicians protesting that show on TV that exposed their tricks to all of America. A magicians magic lies in the amount of deception he can place on his audience, His magic is only as powerful as the ignorance of the audience and the secrecy of his trade. Once his tricks are found out he will no longer have an audience to watch him and along with that no more money.
Maybe that explains your hostility towards Burger who like many of us has been a victim of a trade which will soon lose its captive audience, A polygraph examiner without his deception is only a person with 8 weeks of useless training and a pretty good talent at interviewing people (Hardly worth the money they currently charge/make for a living).
I am curious as to why you are so hostile towards burger, making the remark that he flips burgers instead of being a law abiding law enforcement officer is sinking a bit low don't you think?
I would also like you to know that I am A LAW ABIDING LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER, who if you take the time to read my posts has had his share of negative experiences with the Polygraph and its examiners. I do not have anything to hide about my past, anything I have done to break the law I have posted in my polygraph experience post (Taking One For the Team 1 and 2). I do not harbor any hate toward Polygraph examiners, as I do see some need for the confessions made during the examinations, I also feel that because of the way the law works the confessions brought out by the Polygraph often solve cases in which the criminal would have gone free due to a lack of evidence or an inadmisable piece of evidence due to shoddy police work/procedures in collecting and properly obtaining the evidence. The distinguishing factor however is I am all for the "Admission" made during the Poly, but the results of the actual Poly are worthless and should never be the determining factor when deciding a persons future. Its funny actually that you truly believe that anyone who does not pass the Polygraph is automatically a liar, you don't even have enough rationale to give a person the benefit of the doubt especially when the only true liar is the Polygraph examiner!
I whole heartedly believe in Innocent until proven guilty, I have lived in countries where it was the other way around and have seen what a travesty their judicial systems are. Polygraphs are run much in the same manner, You are Guilty until proven Innocent by this machine ,or should I say the examiner because we all really know the machine can't determine anything without the "interpretation" ( and I use this word in the most lax manner) of the examiner. Applicants for Agencies that use the Polygraph for hiring purposes aren't given a fraction of the rights that career criminals are afforded by OUR OWN LEGAL SYSTEM. And all these applicants really want is to enforce the laws and protect the innocent for a mediocre amount of pay while placing themselves in a position to get shot on a daily basis.
On another note I often pondered why the examiners seem to get so angry when they are told someone knows the inner workings of their trade. Then I remembered all the magicians protesting that show on TV that exposed their tricks to all of America. A magicians magic lies in the amount of deception he can place on his audience, His magic is only as powerful as the ignorance of the audience and the secrecy of his trade. Once his tricks are found out he will no longer have an audience to watch him and along with that no more money.
Maybe that explains your hostility towards Burger who like many of us has been a victim of a trade which will soon lose its captive audience, A polygraph examiner without his deception is only a person with 8 weeks of useless training and a pretty good talent at interviewing people (Hardly worth the money they currently charge/make for a living).
Posted by Twoblock (Guest)
- Jul 22, 2001, 02:53 AMJohn
My statement was if the polygraph (sorry I omitted machine) was a "true lie dector". It isn't. It takes a person to manipulate it. This same one person interprits it. This same one person renders the verdict of guilt or innocent. This same one person holds the future of the subject in his hands. It took me 4 hard years of college to be classified as an accountant and I only held one man's future in my hands. His own figures condemed him though. I just put them together and testified for the U.S. Government and he went to prison. No tricks and no stem test (calibration). Just facts.
How long did it take you to be classified as a polygrapher, 8 weeks? I just find it hard to accept a one man verdict. A jury has 12.
John, tuning fork calibration??? In the Navy, where true radar is used, we would never think of using tuning fork calibration. The lives of every man on the sub would be jeopardized.
I want to give you two examples of "polygraph prevarication".
My daughter had to take a pre-employment (before EPPA) polygraph. She had lived at the same address for years. The question "do you live at - - -? Answer, yes. The chart showed deception. Question Have you ever used drugs? The answer, yes because she had smoked weed (I razor-strapped her backside for the one time that I knew about). The chart showed deception. The polygraphers only statement was "you can't tell the truth to anything, can you". She got the job anyway because she was truthful and the company never used pre-employment poly again.
A sometimes business associate of mine was charged with child molestation. He demanded a polygraph. The polygrapher said he flunked it big time. Right before the trial the girl (13 yrs old) recanted her story and said she did it on a dare. He damn near went to prison anyway because the Polygrapher said he was guilty. And it cost him his business.
John, no the guilty molesters are not being shafted. The penalty is not great enough in my estimation. But the innocent receives the same penalty. DNA, a true science, is now turning some of the innocent ones out of prison. Some that the polygraph sent there.
Thank you a whole heap for your cangratulations. I, too, believe our long marriage is a blessing from God. I thank him every day for that one and all of the blessings He has bestowed on me and my family. May He be as good to you and yours.
My statement was if the polygraph (sorry I omitted machine) was a "true lie dector". It isn't. It takes a person to manipulate it. This same one person interprits it. This same one person renders the verdict of guilt or innocent. This same one person holds the future of the subject in his hands. It took me 4 hard years of college to be classified as an accountant and I only held one man's future in my hands. His own figures condemed him though. I just put them together and testified for the U.S. Government and he went to prison. No tricks and no stem test (calibration). Just facts.
How long did it take you to be classified as a polygrapher, 8 weeks? I just find it hard to accept a one man verdict. A jury has 12.
John, tuning fork calibration??? In the Navy, where true radar is used, we would never think of using tuning fork calibration. The lives of every man on the sub would be jeopardized.
I want to give you two examples of "polygraph prevarication".
My daughter had to take a pre-employment (before EPPA) polygraph. She had lived at the same address for years. The question "do you live at - - -? Answer, yes. The chart showed deception. Question Have you ever used drugs? The answer, yes because she had smoked weed (I razor-strapped her backside for the one time that I knew about). The chart showed deception. The polygraphers only statement was "you can't tell the truth to anything, can you". She got the job anyway because she was truthful and the company never used pre-employment poly again.
A sometimes business associate of mine was charged with child molestation. He demanded a polygraph. The polygrapher said he flunked it big time. Right before the trial the girl (13 yrs old) recanted her story and said she did it on a dare. He damn near went to prison anyway because the Polygrapher said he was guilty. And it cost him his business.
John, no the guilty molesters are not being shafted. The penalty is not great enough in my estimation. But the innocent receives the same penalty. DNA, a true science, is now turning some of the innocent ones out of prison. Some that the polygraph sent there.
Thank you a whole heap for your cangratulations. I, too, believe our long marriage is a blessing from God. I thank him every day for that one and all of the blessings He has bestowed on me and my family. May He be as good to you and yours.
Posted by John (Guest)
- Jul 21, 2001, 11:10 PMTwoblock,
First of all, I would like to congradulate you and your wife for being married for 50 years. That is truly a blessing from God.
Now to get to your first questions. Any good investigator, whether a polygraph was conducted or not, wouldn't just point blank, ask accusatory questions until there was evidence found, or information obtained during the preliminary investigation, that proved beyond a doubt, that the person being questioned, committed the crime. Why should a polygrapher be any different.
Question #2 about the "Stim Test." Twoblock, are you familiar with radar(speed trap). Did you know that before police officers or state troopers use this piece of equipment during their tour of duty, they had to make sure that the radar was properly calibrated. Did you know that the officers/troopers use tuning forks to check the calibration. Well let's just say, the stim test is the polygraphers tuning forks. By the way, are there any noradar.com or antiradar.com sites anywhere. I'm willing to bet you there are. There are some people today who have recieved tickets who said they weren't speeding. In other words, there is always going to be someone, criticizing something.
Twoblock, have you ever read about a doctor misdiagnosing a patient? Sure you have. But if you got sick, wouldn't you still visit one. Have you heard about individuals in the clergy molesting little children. Sure you have. But is that stopping you from attending church. While we are on this subject about child molesters, some individuals are still harping on the fact that since polygraph results aren't admissable in a court of law, then that should be sufficient proof that it's not reliable. Well one of the best tools in America, used to monitor convicted child molesters is the polygraph. There have been many sex offenders who have been sent back to jail after confessing to other molestations or parole violations after failing polygraph examinations.
I know Twoblock, these pedophiles are getting shafted too. To answer your last question. No, I don't think you should be subjected to answering a question pertaining to the faithfulness you have preserved for your wife of 50 years, unless it is relevant to the issue in which you are being polygraphed for. I don't think you are afraid of telling the truth, I believe all of the antipolygraph material that you have read, has you paranoid.
Well Twoblock, I hope I have answered your questions.
First of all, I would like to congradulate you and your wife for being married for 50 years. That is truly a blessing from God.
Now to get to your first questions. Any good investigator, whether a polygraph was conducted or not, wouldn't just point blank, ask accusatory questions until there was evidence found, or information obtained during the preliminary investigation, that proved beyond a doubt, that the person being questioned, committed the crime. Why should a polygrapher be any different.
Question #2 about the "Stim Test." Twoblock, are you familiar with radar(speed trap). Did you know that before police officers or state troopers use this piece of equipment during their tour of duty, they had to make sure that the radar was properly calibrated. Did you know that the officers/troopers use tuning forks to check the calibration. Well let's just say, the stim test is the polygraphers tuning forks. By the way, are there any noradar.com or antiradar.com sites anywhere. I'm willing to bet you there are. There are some people today who have recieved tickets who said they weren't speeding. In other words, there is always going to be someone, criticizing something.
Twoblock, have you ever read about a doctor misdiagnosing a patient? Sure you have. But if you got sick, wouldn't you still visit one. Have you heard about individuals in the clergy molesting little children. Sure you have. But is that stopping you from attending church. While we are on this subject about child molesters, some individuals are still harping on the fact that since polygraph results aren't admissable in a court of law, then that should be sufficient proof that it's not reliable. Well one of the best tools in America, used to monitor convicted child molesters is the polygraph. There have been many sex offenders who have been sent back to jail after confessing to other molestations or parole violations after failing polygraph examinations.
I know Twoblock, these pedophiles are getting shafted too. To answer your last question. No, I don't think you should be subjected to answering a question pertaining to the faithfulness you have preserved for your wife of 50 years, unless it is relevant to the issue in which you are being polygraphed for. I don't think you are afraid of telling the truth, I believe all of the antipolygraph material that you have read, has you paranoid.
Well Twoblock, I hope I have answered your questions.
Posted by Twoblock (Guest)
- Jul 21, 2001, 12:56 PMJohn
You write like a person who's income has decreased by the exposing of a scam machine (and operator). I have some questions for you that you probably will not answer.
1. If the polygraph was a true "lie dector" why couldn't your subject be hooked up and, straight out, asked the question "did you commit etc., etc." ?
2. Why do you employ the "stem test"? Isn't that to confuse, psych out, scare and generally upset your subject?
3. Why do you people use the side show tactics of the numbers game and card tricks? Isn't that an attempt to prove to the subject how good you and your flim-flam machine are?
Not just to get a reaction on you chart?
4. Can you truthfully (what a word here) say that polygraphers don't use lies, deception and tricks on your subjects.
If you have guts enough to answer these questions truthfully, maybe some can be used in the second edition of "the lie behind the lie detector"
I am 70 years old, been married to the same wonderful lady for nearly 50 of those years and should never need to be polygraphed even to prove my fathfulness to her. However, I am bound to expose scams where ever I find them
You write like a person who's income has decreased by the exposing of a scam machine (and operator). I have some questions for you that you probably will not answer.
1. If the polygraph was a true "lie dector" why couldn't your subject be hooked up and, straight out, asked the question "did you commit etc., etc." ?
2. Why do you employ the "stem test"? Isn't that to confuse, psych out, scare and generally upset your subject?
3. Why do you people use the side show tactics of the numbers game and card tricks? Isn't that an attempt to prove to the subject how good you and your flim-flam machine are?
Not just to get a reaction on you chart?
4. Can you truthfully (what a word here) say that polygraphers don't use lies, deception and tricks on your subjects.
If you have guts enough to answer these questions truthfully, maybe some can be used in the second edition of "the lie behind the lie detector"
I am 70 years old, been married to the same wonderful lady for nearly 50 of those years and should never need to be polygraphed even to prove my fathfulness to her. However, I am bound to expose scams where ever I find them
Posted by John (Guest)
- Jul 20, 2001, 11:22 PMHey Burger, it sounds like you got caught lying too. What an awesome instrument that Polygraph is, huh. Is that why you are flipping burgers instead of being a law abiding, honest, law enforcement officer
Posted by Burger
- Jul 20, 2001, 09:35 PMQuote from: John on Jul 20, 2001, 07:36 PM
Restor, your son didn't flunk the polygraph examination because he filed a lawsuit. He flunked because he lied. Get that through your head. Why can't your son post his own concerns? Why are you doing this for him? Do you want to take the next polygraph examination for him too? No sympathy here Dad.
Retsor,
Don't pay much attention to "John". He's upset because he knows the truth about polygraph is being told here and he doesn't like it. The reason is his livelihood is threatened. Yes, he makes his living by ruining other peoples chances of getting their "dream" job. He secretly hates himself because he knows deep inside that what he is doing to other people is wrong. The deceit he shovels to the people he works for everyday is such a burden, but there's no way out for him, short of confessing that polygraph is a sham. If he did that, he would be a disgrace for hiding it so long. He will continue to hide it because he is a weak person and is afraid that if he stands up and admits that polygraph doesn't work, he'll be out of work. Unlike your son, "John" is afraid to tell the truth because he would probably end up flipping burgers at the local McDonalds. What "John" doesn't recognize is that flipping burgers is a much more honorable job than one as a polygrapher.
Posted by Fred F.
- Jul 20, 2001, 09:04 PMQuote from: retsor on Jun 04, 2001, 07:57 PM
>:(My son took a polygraph test with the San Joaquing Sheriff Dept. in Calif. He failed. He is a 17 year Police officer, and served a year in Kosovo as a Police Officer for the UN> W
Retsor,
You and your son need to download and read The Lie Behind The Lie Detector from this site. Also you will find that there are other veteran police officers(Dimas) that have had bad polygraph experiences. Your son needs to keep applying and most of all Get Educated, because knowledge is power, There are many state agencies that need people and DO NOT POLY!!!(CA DOJ does)
Most veteran police officers are honest, hard working people. Polygraphs can destroy people unless they fight back
Go to //www.spb.ca.gov and browse for state law enforcement opportunities
Good Luck
Fred F.
Posted by John (Guest)
- Jul 20, 2001, 07:36 PMRestor, your son didn't flunk the polygraph examination because he filed a lawsuit. He flunked because he lied. Get that through your head. Why can't your son post his own concerns? Why are you doing this for him? Do you want to take the next polygraph examination for him too? No sympathy here Dad.
Posted by retsor
- Jun 04, 2001, 07:57 PM >:(My son took a polygraph test with the San Joaquing Sheriff Dept. in Calif. He failed. He is a 17 year Police officer, and served a year in Kosovo as a Police Officer for the UN> When he returned he has applied at many departments. When he failed this test, he ask if he could appeal and they saied yes. He took another more comprehensive test on his own and passed. Still the Sheriff Dept. turned him down. He has been black listed because he had filed a Federal law suit against the Merced Police Dept. before going to Kosovo. Nothing in his reviews would stop him from a new job, but the other departments use discrimination and violate his civial rights because he was truthful. They use any excuess to hire him. I need infor on how to file a suit against all of these dept. A very upset Father