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A forum for free and open discussion of polygraph-related topics
Posted by George W. Maschke
- Jul 12, 2003, 05:24 AMFor an update on the Irondale scandal, see:
http://www.postherald.com/me071103.shtml
Here's an excerpt:
http://www.postherald.com/me071103.shtml
Here's an excerpt:
QuoteTwo Irondale City Council members want some answers -- and perhaps an investigation into their own Police Department.
Councilman Simpson Berry said he has received many inquiries from Irondale residents after questions were raised about an incident in which police say they found a city councilman's son with 3 pounds of what officers believed was marijuana. The 19-year-old son has never been charged in the incident, police and court documents show.
Berry, who said the city of Irondale also is being portrayed in a bad light on local talk radio stations, said he wants to put an end to the controversy by getting some questions answered.
"We want the public to have correct information, and we want the correct information," Berry said Thursday. "Sometimes we can be blinded."
Berry and Councilman Jack Boone called a public meeting for 4 p.m. today to discuss bringing in an outside person to investigate the Police Department.
"There might be some things we all need to know and possibly consider bringing some additional experts in to look at this whole affair," Berry said.
"Just from the council, city attorney and the mayor, we need some other people to come in ... and suggest to us some things that we can do and some things we should have done," Berry said. "Maybe some of us are a little too close to the situation."
...
Berry also said he wanted to discuss the demand by Mayor Allen Ramsey that city employees take lie-detector tests after a copy of the police report was leaked to the media, which led to the Jackson incident coming to light. Ramsey wanted polygraph tests to find out who released the report. He since has relented from the demand.
Posted by George W. Maschke
- Jul 10, 2003, 07:26 AMmrsb,
If you have the e-mail addresses of any city employees, you could send them a message through an anonymous remailer. This would protect you from being "marked." You'll find a web-based secure, anonymous remailer here:
https://riot.eu.org/anon/remailer.html.en
An alternate technique would be to create a free, anonymous e-mail account with ZipLip. Unlike most email services, ZipLip does not include your IP address in e-mail messages.
If you have the e-mail addresses of any city employees, you could send them a message through an anonymous remailer. This would protect you from being "marked." You'll find a web-based secure, anonymous remailer here:
https://riot.eu.org/anon/remailer.html.en
An alternate technique would be to create a free, anonymous e-mail account with ZipLip. Unlike most email services, ZipLip does not include your IP address in e-mail messages.
Posted by mrsb
- Jul 10, 2003, 06:36 AMDear George,
I am very much in a position to inform city hall employees of this website. But to keep from being marked here in "Mayberry II," I will only contact one and then let that person *network*. As a matter of fact, I've been trying to contact that particular person since before I even posted the first time.
Yes, this is an outrage! It's an outrage that Ramsey's top priority is to discipline a truth-telling-whistleblower rather than to make sure his police department is following departmental procedures and policies so that there is no need for whistleblowing!
I am very much in a position to inform city hall employees of this website. But to keep from being marked here in "Mayberry II," I will only contact one and then let that person *network*. As a matter of fact, I've been trying to contact that particular person since before I even posted the first time.
Yes, this is an outrage! It's an outrage that Ramsey's top priority is to discipline a truth-telling-whistleblower rather than to make sure his police department is following departmental procedures and policies so that there is no need for whistleblowing!
Posted by George W. Maschke
- Jul 10, 2003, 05:41 AMmrsb,
As I recall, Russ Fine mentioned to me that he was amazed to learn that the federal whistleblower protection law offers no protection to the person who disclosed the police report (which is a public record that Irondale had improperly, and perhaps illegally, refused to release).
The polygraph witch hunt Ramsey had ordered -- to find a whistleblower who broke no law -- is indeed an outrage. The city council's public safety committee, which has taken over the hunt for the whistleblower, may yet order polygraph testing. If you are in a position to inform any city hall employees about this website, I hope you'll mention it to them. Anyone ordered to submit to a polygraph interrogation would benefit from reading The Lie Behind the Lie Detector first.
As I recall, Russ Fine mentioned to me that he was amazed to learn that the federal whistleblower protection law offers no protection to the person who disclosed the police report (which is a public record that Irondale had improperly, and perhaps illegally, refused to release).
The polygraph witch hunt Ramsey had ordered -- to find a whistleblower who broke no law -- is indeed an outrage. The city council's public safety committee, which has taken over the hunt for the whistleblower, may yet order polygraph testing. If you are in a position to inform any city hall employees about this website, I hope you'll mention it to them. Anyone ordered to submit to a polygraph interrogation would benefit from reading The Lie Behind the Lie Detector first.
Posted by mrsb
- Jul 10, 2003, 05:29 AMIf y'all only lived here in Irondale, Alabama to see this mess for yourself! First of all, it's odd how a mayor's city that is so far in debt WAS willing to spend $200 per test per employee just to railroad a whistle blower after laying off over 30 city employees last year. Second, can you imagine how the federal government would come down on Mr. A. Allen Ramsey if he did take disciplinary action on a whistle blower?
And I'd just like to say for the record that Mr. Ramsey thinks HE is the city, and not the employees and citizens of Irondale. If there were no such thing as "power," then Mr. Ramsey would have no interest in the position of mayor whatsoever!
(Ooops! Did I say that?
) 
And I'd just like to say for the record that Mr. Ramsey thinks HE is the city, and not the employees and citizens of Irondale. If there were no such thing as "power," then Mr. Ramsey would have no interest in the position of mayor whatsoever!
(Ooops! Did I say that?) Posted by George W. Maschke
- Jul 10, 2003, 03:04 AMPosted by George W. Maschke
- Jul 10, 2003, 03:00 AMSuethem,
Note that even polygraphers who don't administer pre-employment polygraph screening examinations nonetheless rely on the probable-lie control question test (PLCQT). This discredited technique, which has no scientific basis whatsoever, is the polygrapher's stock-in-trade.
Note that even polygraphers who don't administer pre-employment polygraph screening examinations nonetheless rely on the probable-lie control question test (PLCQT). This discredited technique, which has no scientific basis whatsoever, is the polygrapher's stock-in-trade.
Posted by suethem
- Jul 10, 2003, 12:36 AMSaidme,
You've told this website that you don't believe in pre-employment polygraphs. You said that you have never done them and you never will!
Yet, you still are making comments about peoples complaints about their pre-employment polygraphs.
Why? If you admit their a waste of time, then why comment?
Its your credibility that suffers when you make mean comments to George or anyone else that has 'failed' a PLCQT, a test that you yourself have not ever given and won't.
I know that polygraphers like to have it both ways, but if the test is not worthy of your time, then commenting on it can't be either.
You've told this website that you don't believe in pre-employment polygraphs. You said that you have never done them and you never will!
Yet, you still are making comments about peoples complaints about their pre-employment polygraphs.
Why? If you admit their a waste of time, then why comment?
Its your credibility that suffers when you make mean comments to George or anyone else that has 'failed' a PLCQT, a test that you yourself have not ever given and won't.
I know that polygraphers like to have it both ways, but if the test is not worthy of your time, then commenting on it can't be either.
Posted by orolan
- Jul 09, 2003, 09:23 PMsuethem,
There's a good idea. Then the mayor can pick and choose who is actually guilty while excluding any friends who failed under the guise of "false positives".
Interestingly enough, things are mighty quiet up in Warren these days. I think the DA has gone "underground" with his investigation. That probably means they have a strong suspect in mind. We'll see.
There's a good idea. Then the mayor can pick and choose who is actually guilty while excluding any friends who failed under the guise of "false positives".
Interestingly enough, things are mighty quiet up in Warren these days. I think the DA has gone "underground" with his investigation. That probably means they have a strong suspect in mind. We'll see.
Posted by suethem
- Jul 09, 2003, 09:15 PMAll...
Maybe the Mayor of Irondale can hire the polygrapher from the Molly Bish case....
I wonder when the DA's office is going to charge all 11 of the suspects in the Molly Bish case who 'failed' the polygraph?
Maybe the Mayor of Irondale can hire the polygrapher from the Molly Bish case....
I wonder when the DA's office is going to charge all 11 of the suspects in the Molly Bish case who 'failed' the polygraph?
Posted by George W. Maschke
- Jul 08, 2003, 10:50 AMAccording to an article by Birmingham News staff writer Anita Debro titled "Investigation continues into leak" (8 July), the Irondale city government has not entirely abandoned the idea of resorting to polygraph interrogations to find the whistleblower who provided the police report to Russ & Dee Fine:
QuoteIrondale's Public Safety Committee, charged with handling the internal investigation into who leaked information about the drug investigation, has yet to interview any employees or ask any to take a polygraph test as Irondale Mayor Allen Ramsey had suggested.
Ramsey requested last week that City Hall employees be interviewed and given a polygraph test if necessary to find out who gave a police report about the drug investigation to radio talk show hosts Russ and Dee Fine.
City Attorney Greg Morris said no polygraph tests are scheduled for the near future. He denied published reports that the committee has backed off giving the lie detector tests altogether.
"We may have to (ask for a polygraph), but we may not have to," he said. "We are just in the fact-finding stage."
Posted by orolan
- Jul 07, 2003, 09:53 PMIn case you didn't see it, this is from today's Birmingham Post-Herald.
http://www.postherald.com/me070703.shtml
QuoteThe plan for lie-detector tests demanded by Ramsey have been abandoned, said Greg Morris, Irondale city attorney.The article centers on the son's pending sentence for two armed robbery charges unrelated to the incident involving drugs that sparked the current controversy.
http://www.postherald.com/me070703.shtml
Posted by George W. Maschke
- Jul 04, 2003, 05:59 AMI've been in touch with Russ and Dee Fine regarding Mayor Ramsey's planned polygraph hunt for the inconvenient whistleblower.
It seems that Tarrant Police Chief Jesse Sprayberry, who is to conduct the "tests" for $200-a-pop and has already polygraphed some members of the Irondale P.D. (including acting chief Norman Stapp), is a buddy of Mayor Ramsey's. So, apart from the sheer stupidity and obvious impropriety of using an invalid test in an attempt to find and punish a whistleblower, there is also a conflict of interest involved.
Russ Fine mentioned to me that he read my letter to the Birmingham News a couple times on the air Wednesday morning. He also mentioned that Irondale is threatening to charge him and Dee with obstruction of justice!
It seems that Tarrant Police Chief Jesse Sprayberry, who is to conduct the "tests" for $200-a-pop and has already polygraphed some members of the Irondale P.D. (including acting chief Norman Stapp), is a buddy of Mayor Ramsey's. So, apart from the sheer stupidity and obvious impropriety of using an invalid test in an attempt to find and punish a whistleblower, there is also a conflict of interest involved.
Russ Fine mentioned to me that he read my letter to the Birmingham News a couple times on the air Wednesday morning. He also mentioned that Irondale is threatening to charge him and Dee with obstruction of justice!
Posted by orolan
- Jul 03, 2003, 06:35 PMPolitics in small-town America
Posted by guest from canada
- Jul 03, 2003, 06:32 PMI can't wait to see the results from the Mayors poly. I would laugh my A$$ off if he were labelled as deceptive. Problem is the politicians are as deceptive as the polygraphers and they would just sweep the mayors failure under the rug.