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A forum for free and open discussion of polygraph-related topics
Posted by Illidan
- Dec 12, 2011, 05:10 PMI was disqualified two weeks after taking the PQE. I told the truth, it was all i can give. Yea, there were somethings i stated that i wasn't proud of, but people change and grow into better people. The LAPD background investigators didn't give me much consideration. I went through alot to gather all of my documents, i feel slightly cheated. We fall... but we have to get back up and push harder.
Posted by Pseudo Relevant
- Aug 28, 2001, 12:26 PMQuote from: Cheyenne War Horse on Aug 28, 2001, 07:43 AM
A Congressman is caught in a lie?He is so very fired.
Uhhh... Did Condit get "fired"? With all the lies this guy is telling he's planning to run for re-election. Slick Willy never got fired either. He's been lying since birth. Maybe the only things the polygraph doesn't work on is sex and murder cases, right OJ? Condit? Hmmm... makes one wonder.
Posted by Cheyenne War Horse
- Aug 28, 2001, 07:43 AMQuote from: wannabe on Dec 31, 1969, 07:00 PMCheyenne,
I see your point, but what do most people think about lying salesmen? AND there are laws to protect consumers, what recourse does an innocent person wrongly accused of lying have against a polygraher?
[B/]
Gosh I am writing long notes.Sorry.You asked about lying salesman.,,,I did not give them the support that they need.The Car Dealer sets the system and if it is thinly disguised as fact? The poor salesman is not going to get a paycheck.Everybody hates car salesmen. It feels awful that the owner had no faith in my abilities and forced me into the "system". I did not sell six trucks in six days because the owner had anything to do with it.It was the Desk Manager and the Service writers and Mechanics who work behind the scenes.My knowledge of the Trucks and my faith in the product.Salesman in the Car busness are terribly maligned and abused.They are forced by Managemnent to lie to make a profit.You either play ball on their team or you got big problems.
And yes UC cops frequently have to lie tocriminals in order to keep from compromising their cover, so the wrongly accused who get their dreams smashed by a polygraphers OPINION should be compared to the criminal element that UC cops deal with.....sounds fair and just to me.
[B/]
You are correct regarding the wrongly accused.There is definately something wrong with being hammered on by the Polygraph and then the second day of work the Sargent tells you to lie well about something on a Case.In positions where they HAVE to lie ?Make it a positive instead of a negative and as you say having their dreams crushed.Hey?The guy is a great liar so put him in this capacity or that job.
We are getting way too politically correct.If they tell one lie and they are booted....? Darn it....A Congressman is caught in a lie?He is so very fired. Police Cheif tells a lie?He is flat fired. People need to grab ahold of themselves and stand for what they believe in.I think the Constitution is being maligned and I hate that.....a lot.
Posted by Cheyenne War Horse
- Aug 24, 2001, 05:42 PMQuote from: wannabe on Aug 24, 2001, 03:35 AM
Cheyenne,
I see your point, but what do most people think about lying salesmen? AND there are laws to protect consumers, what recourse does an innocent person wrongly accused of lying have against a polygraher?
Your point is excellent.The Car business if they are sucessful has a "system" for handeling the customer from point A....of sale to Point B to close the sale.Where I worked representing Ford products it was called "APB"(Automotive Profit Builders).It is is not a Ford Motor Co. Program.They were contracted even though the owner got kickbacks from it.I have been out of the business for a number of years.But recently I realized full force with the damage the "sale speak" did to me.I don't like lying as it does not feel good to lie but all people lie and for many reasons.Santa Claus comes to mind.
But the "speak" of the APB is still there and causing me problems.Overcoming objections when that is not the reason to be there.It is about learning.It is about helping my Community and my Tribes and my people.But looks like I am still selling F-250's and Explorers and Mustangs.In a sense I am.
The one thing you did say I disagree with is the Consumer Protection groups can always help.When people are forced to lie day in and out?They have a diminished conscience.It affects their lives on and off the Car Lot.For me?It destroyed my marriage and my relationships.Why? Because at first I thought he did not want to quit lying and "lining in".Desking deals.-The sad thing with him was it preceded his career in the business.It became unbearable for me.I left him.I had no idea at the time I was deeply affected by it too.Saying anything to please another is also Co-dependent behavior and to ensure love or even survival.I hate it when indian people lie but they are so traumatized and the PTSD is so bad they are trying to cope.Lie like trains and no way to understand unless they get professional therapy.
When I was a Ford Saleperson I got mad about the lying and the constant demand to attend the APB.Go or be fired was the answer.I truly believed as I had 20 years of Sales and working Customer service that If I believed in my product and knew them and Ford is a great product anyway?That I had no need to lie and we went around and around about that.One day I got good and mad and the Customer saw it?I told the Desk Manager I will not tell the customer that because they know it is a lie.I got screamed at and screamed at.Deal went through. The customer should not have had to be put through that ordeal.A person who believes in a person or place or thing or philisophy or the LE has no need to lie or use a crutch such as APB.See? I flat out refused to lie to the customer and the earth did not fall down.I knew I was a Professional car and truck salesperson and had no need to pretend anything at all because I believed in the product.
If you gave all the Car people a Polygraph?The Senior Salespeople would pass no problem,.Why ?They simply have compromised their conscience and probably don't even know how much they lie and about big and small things.I believe it.I feel I am brain damaged from their ongoing day in and out verbal abuse and their "reality".The other Car Dealers did not use it and everyone knew the abuse was so bad at the lot but yet they had a system. If the system worked they had no need of abusing the salespeople and the Managers by higher Heirachy.Hope that explains it better.
Cheyenne War Horse....American Indian....
And yes UC cops frequently have to lie tocriminals in order to keep from compromising their cover, so the wrongly accused who get their dreams smashed by a polygraphers OPINION should be compared to the criminal element that UC cops deal with.....sounds fair and just to me.
Posted by Wannabe
- Aug 24, 2001, 03:35 AMCheyenne,
I see your point, but what do most people think about lying salesmen? AND there are laws to protect consumers, what recourse does an innocent person wrongly accused of lying have against a polygraher? And yes UC cops frequently have to lie tocriminals in order to keep from compromising their cover, so the wrongly accused who get their dreams smashed by a polygraphers OPINION should be compared to the criminal element that UC cops deal with.....sounds fair and just to me.
I see your point, but what do most people think about lying salesmen? AND there are laws to protect consumers, what recourse does an innocent person wrongly accused of lying have against a polygraher? And yes UC cops frequently have to lie tocriminals in order to keep from compromising their cover, so the wrongly accused who get their dreams smashed by a polygraphers OPINION should be compared to the criminal element that UC cops deal with.....sounds fair and just to me.
Posted by Cheyenne War Horse
- Aug 24, 2001, 01:35 AMQuote from: AMM on Aug 22, 2001, 04:53 PM
Cheyenne War Horse:
You may have already learned via the Antipolygraph.org website that mandatory polygraphs for all LAPD candidates were instituted in February 2001. All candidates, lateral or off the street are required to submit to and pass a polygraph before they are hired. The use of the polygraph was recommend following the "Rampart" scandal.
Very respectfully,
AMM
Hello AMM, thnak you.I am on a writing very long notes roll and I am going to try to keep it short.
The nagging thought that also comes to mind on Polygraphs is the Constitution.The very idea of assuming from the get go we are lying.
Let me explain.If I were to say on a group of people who have made their living lying and no one seems to question it much?Car dealers and salesman.Many LEO and car salesman are intertwined in a habit to make a paycheck based on lying.Undercover LE has to lie to work the Case.A car salesman who has worked in the business for a lot of years can lie like velvet.
Then there are those who have no conscience.None.
How do you enter that equation in?
Posted by AMM (Guest)
- Aug 22, 2001, 04:53 PMCheyenne War Horse:
You may have already learned via the Antipolygraph.org website that mandatory polygraphs for all LAPD candidates were instituted in February 2001. All candidates, lateral or off the street are required to submit to and pass a polygraph before they are hired. The use of the polygraph was recommend following the "Rampart" scandal.
Very respectfully,
AMM
You may have already learned via the Antipolygraph.org website that mandatory polygraphs for all LAPD candidates were instituted in February 2001. All candidates, lateral or off the street are required to submit to and pass a polygraph before they are hired. The use of the polygraph was recommend following the "Rampart" scandal.
Very respectfully,
AMM
Posted by Cheyenne War Horse
- Aug 21, 2001, 09:43 PMQuote from: George Maschke on Dec 31, 1969, 07:00 PMThe Freedom of Information Act (5 U.S.C. 552) applies to federal agencies only. For example, you could not request a document from the Los Angeles Police Department based on the FOIA. However, the California Public Records Act (CPRA) does pertain to governmental agencies in the state. I believe most other states have similar statutes to facilitate public access to governmental information.
Thank you for helping me understand it.I have never dealt with FOIA in CA or the LAPD Law Enforcement Records.As a Special Feild Investigator in the private sector the minute the Case Files were put my desk I filled out the FOI at the P.O. and once I recieved it back I began the Case work.They no longer comply with doing those searches and after talking to the Postmaster General at a meeting,I understand why.Domestic disputes and Mothers disappearing with their children.
I want to apologize on the long notes.I edited it and will try to stay on the subject closer.Mkay?
Posted by Cheyenne War Horse
- Aug 21, 2001, 08:37 PMQuote from: Fred F. on Dec 31, 1969, 07:00 PMDzalez,
A couple of questions. First, most candidates for LAPD are not subjected to polygraphs unless the investigator finds something in your background application that raised a red flag. I may well be wrong but I have many friends who have applied for LAPD and NOT been polygraphed. Are you already an officer doing a lateral transfer?
I was reading with interest about the LAPD and Polygraphs.
I always thought they were a tool used with the background checks and all other Interviewing to determine Officer-Candiate applicants for hiring?
At the FBI and DEA and BATF and Secret Service and U.S. Marshals?I would expect it mandatory.It should done periodically so they don't get into the habit of lying as they do have to do on their jobs a lot. Ex Director Louis J. Freeh and the new Director Robert Meuller III should have absolutely no hesitation being Polygraphed.But also? They should be made to hold the Eagle Feather symbol and of the great Grizzly and swear on it to be truthful.Both National Treasures.I did think Director Meullers III reply to the Senate regarding if he passed the Polygraph was inappropriate and not truthful.Just my opinion.His responsibilities are way too important to this Country and the Tribes to be playing footsie with Congress.Or the Tribes.
The Tribes have a absolute and legal and ethical right to know the FBI and other Federal LEO's will treat them with fairness and honesty and integrity.The Feds have a huge responsibility to protect the Tribes in a Federal Trust and Treaty obligation.Feds don't? I am on the phone and writing Letters.I don't like seeing the Tribes ignored or have excuses made to them. Being a war horse has no perks.
I know some FBI Agents that are in the big time trouble with me for lying. They dread talking to me because after @25 years of them they know darn well I will bust em for lying to me.Everyone lies and I am no exception but not about important things you don't.The Office of Professional Responsibility can usually turn their (twisted and bizarre and down right scary )thinking around.Or?They can kiss their Federal Badges goodbye.I have never willingly been unfair or untruthful with them. But they think their Badges sometimes make it ok to overload their mouths.I know I am way big trouble with them and who knows?But in the meantime?They better not lie to me.They will be saying...Holy Tatanka (Holy Buffalo)instead of the Tribes saying it.
It is like an article you write for the Newspapers?The professional Journaist will check out 5 sources before they do the piece.
I know the FBI I have had experience with "lie like a train" when they are confronted with direct questions. They "dance" well but they know I can catch them quick like a Bunny in a lie.I caught one Agent and in one millisecond he knew he has "had". A slight "catch" in his voice.Whoops. Gotcha. A couple others know me well after a lot of years.Don't lie to her cause she has addresses and phones numbers and Badge pullers for backup.As does every citizen and both have a right to defend their actions.That is Democracy.
I yelled at one who knew me the longest?He screamed at me.He was not lying.That kind of anger cannot be tricked. What a ongoing fight that is.He ought to know better than to irritate me.Actually as we are talking truth?I am still so mad I may go to his Office and not go in cause if I go in to a Federal Blidg?That FBI man will have me arrested or shot.I know him well...he is lying in wait.Hollar him out and tell him just who he thinks he is messing with.See? They do that and get me wound up.Then he tattles to his big bad FBI friends and then they are mean to me.I am alone and don't touch firearms and he is of many with the big guns.I am just one indian woman.See?He siced the whole Govt. on me.
And again the Tribes are saying.......ya got it....Holy Tatanka.....
Some people are just gifted with the ability to read silent and spoken and body language and facial expressions and get the truth.Actually the American Indians don't even need Polygraph machines.They know how to "read sign" very well.I am trying to not have mine speak.... "dead".
Traditional American Indians use the Eagle Feather to hold when giving evidence instead of the Bible in Court.The Eagle flys highest to the Great Spirit in the Heavens and brings wisdom.Eagle is what the Tribes hold sacred.It is of course what the Federal Govt. holds sacred the Federal Law Enforcment and Dept of Justice also honor it.
I know this is long but I was asked to state my feelings about Polygraphs.By the time the FBI reads this they will be in the War Room of the Pentagon plotting against me.Run?Is not EVEN in my vocabulary.I am from a Military family....Semper Fi....Always Faithful...USMC....Mohawk/Mohican...American Indian..
Posted by G Scalabr
- Aug 20, 2001, 05:09 AMQuoteI am confused about something.Why would CA have their own FOIA version.The FOIA is a Federal Act
Cheyenne_war_horse, the language of the Freedom of Information Act only allows you to request information being kept by federal agencies. Therefore, you cannot request information from the LAPD under it--the reason being because the LAPD is not a federal agency.
Fortunately, California (like most states) has it's own freedom of information laws that apply to state and local agencies.
Posted by George W. Maschke
- Aug 20, 2001, 05:07 AMQuote from: Cheyenne_war_horse on Aug 20, 2001, 04:44 AM
You should also seek copies of your entire applicant file, including all information related to your polygraph interrogation. California has its own version of the Freedom of Information Act that you should be able to use to request this information.
I am new here and was reading all the notes. I am confused about something.Why would CA have their own FOIA version.The FOIA is a Federal Act.Am I missing something in the way you said it? Is there a fee for using it?
The Freedom of Information Act (5 U.S.C. 552) applies to federal agencies only. For example, you could not request a document from the Los Angeles Police Department based on the FOIA. However, the California Public Records Act (CPRA) does pertain to governmental agencies in the state. I believe most other states have similar statutes to facilitate public access to governmental information.
Under the CPRA, copy costs may be charged, but not necessarily. For example, no copy costs were charged in connection with two recent AntiPolygraph.org CPRA requests for documents used in the LAPD an LASD polygraph programs.
Posted by Cheyenne War Horse
- Aug 20, 2001, 04:44 AMQuote from: George Maschke on Dec 31, 1969, 07:00 PMYou should also seek copies of your entire applicant file, including all information related to your polygraph interrogation. California has its own version of the Freedom of Information Act that you should be able to use to request this information.
I am new here and was reading all the notes. I am confused about something.Why would CA have their own FOIA version.The FOIA is a Federal Act.Am I missing something in the way you said it? Is there a fee for using it?
Posted by Roy
- Jul 21, 2001, 09:55 AMQuote from: John on Jul 20, 2001, 12:50 PM
"When you took the polygraph examination for the LAPD, you lied and flunked. Whether or not you're disqualified for employment there, yes you are indeed DQed. Why would a police department hire a liar?
Obviously only if they need a good polygraphist
Posted by John (Guest)
- Jul 20, 2001, 12:50 PM"D," if you were told you flunked the polygraph examination and you felt that you were telling the truth, then why even ask if you can be re-tested. Evidentally, you are not too convinced that you really didn't pass it. Or, it could be that you have read the book "The Lie Behind The Lie Detector" and will try to use some of the suggested countere measures. When you took the polygraph examination for the LAPD, you lied and flunked. Whether or not you're disqualified for employment there, yes you are indeed DQed. Why would a police department hire a liar?
Posted by polyfraud
- Jul 18, 2001, 03:40 AMDzalez read about my polygraph saga under "let the witchhunt begin" in another section of the forums. I took a polygraph for a major metropolitan southern californian police force as well. Unfortunately your situation is not unique..this is the kind of junk science they are using these days to filter out recruits. I will be brutually honest..you are going to have a very difficult time appealing your failed poly. I've learned that the law enforcement bureaucracy treats the poly like it's infallible proof. A lot of recruits 50-60% have totally failed their poly with LAPD..i'm not sure what the failure rate is with other CA departments but it has to be pretty high as well. Anything that has to do with the poly is pretty arbitrary and subjective on the polygrapher's "whim"
All I can tell you is to reapply with a different department and try to put it behind you. If you really want to try you can attempt to reschedule another poly and see if they let you.
Good luck..
All I can tell you is to reapply with a different department and try to put it behind you. If you really want to try you can attempt to reschedule another poly and see if they let you.
Good luck..
Quote from: dzalez on May 08, 2001, 08:35 PM
I recently failed my polygraph with LAPD, I was truthfull with all the questions. I was told that if I tell the truth I have nothing to worry about, boy was I wrong. I would like to know if anyone has had a similar experience with the LAPD like I did and have an input on whats the next step after failing the polygraph. I tried calling public safety to get more infomation on my status as a candidate and I cannot get a straight answer from them, my question is pretty simple, I ask them if Im disqualified as a candidate or will I get another chance to retake the polygraph and they cant tell me. Its been over a month and I have not even recieve one piece of mail indicating my situation. This has been one of the worst and frustrating experince I have ever gone through. They have my life on hold, its been a dream of mine to be police officer but Im ready to move on if I can get a straight answer from them. What makes this difficult for me is that I was finished with the entire process and had an academy date pending a succesful polygraph examination. If anyone has had a similar experience or has an input with the
LAPD process, feel free to write to back and maybe we can discuss our options on how to deal with the RIGHTS stripping machine they call polygraph.