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A forum for free and open discussion of polygraph-related topics
Posted by orolan
- Dec 03, 2003, 07:37 PMThanks George. Wonder if they'll have anything "new", or just a rehash of what is already known.
Posted by George W. Maschke
- Dec 03, 2003, 01:01 PMThe CBS news program 48 Hours will be covering the Molly Bish case tonight (Wed., 3 Dec. 2003):
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/12/01/48hours/main586143.shtml
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/12/01/48hours/main586143.shtml
Posted by orolan
- Jun 18, 2003, 07:57 PMMy thanks to Drew, George and especially to David Lykken for his generous offer.
Posted by George W. Maschke
- Jun 18, 2003, 07:18 PMThe file Drew mentioned is now available for download:
"The Body on the Stairs: A Pedagogical Detective Story" (2.2 mb PDF) by David Thoreson Lykken. Chapter 21 of A Tremor in the Blood: Uses and Abuses of the Lie Detector, 1st edition, New York: McGraw-Hill, 1981.
This chapter is not included in the 2nd edition of A Tremor in the Blood. It was very kind of Professor Lykken to grant permission for it to be made available on-line.
"The Body on the Stairs: A Pedagogical Detective Story" (2.2 mb PDF) by David Thoreson Lykken. Chapter 21 of A Tremor in the Blood: Uses and Abuses of the Lie Detector, 1st edition, New York: McGraw-Hill, 1981.
This chapter is not included in the 2nd edition of A Tremor in the Blood. It was very kind of Professor Lykken to grant permission for it to be made available on-line.
Posted by Drew Richardson
- Jun 18, 2003, 03:13 PMOrolon,
With regard to my previous post:
I spoke with David Lykken who indicated he would send me a pdf file containing the aforementioned fictional account which he is willing to provide to this site for its posting/publication. I expect to receive the file in the near future and will make it available shortly thereafter.
With regard to my previous post:
Quote...Orolan,
Although somewhat difficult to find (now out of print), David Lykken's first edition text A Tremor in the Blood (1981) in chapters 20 through 22 (the middle chapter being a fairly detailed account of a fictional crime, investigated and examined via a GKT exam) is probably the best overall explanation and example written for a general audience. There are, of course, numerous reports in the scientific literature for those with a more technical background and interest. Because the aforementioned text is no longer being sold, I will check with David regarding what he would suggest for those who might be interested in obtaining the material I refer to....
I spoke with David Lykken who indicated he would send me a pdf file containing the aforementioned fictional account which he is willing to provide to this site for its posting/publication. I expect to receive the file in the near future and will make it available shortly thereafter.
Posted by Drew Richardson
- Jun 18, 2003, 02:50 PMOrolan,
Although somewhat difficult to find (now out of print), David Lykken's first edition text A Tremor in the Blood (1981) in chapters 20 through 22 (the middle chapter being a fairly detailed account of a fictional crime, investigated and examined via a GKT exam) is probably the best overall explanation and example written for a general audience. There are, of course, numerous reports in the scientific literature for those with a more technical background and interest. Because the aforementioned text is no longer being sold, I will check with David regarding what he would suggest for those who might be interested in obtaining the material I refer to.
Although somewhat difficult to find (now out of print), David Lykken's first edition text A Tremor in the Blood (1981) in chapters 20 through 22 (the middle chapter being a fairly detailed account of a fictional crime, investigated and examined via a GKT exam) is probably the best overall explanation and example written for a general audience. There are, of course, numerous reports in the scientific literature for those with a more technical background and interest. Because the aforementioned text is no longer being sold, I will check with David regarding what he would suggest for those who might be interested in obtaining the material I refer to.
Posted by Marty
- Jun 18, 2003, 03:04 AMQuote from: orolan on Jun 18, 2003, 01:30 AMDrew,
... As you said, the GKT most likely would have performed much better than the CQT had it been used in the early stages of the investigation.
On the subject of the GKT, where would one find informative discourses on its pros, cons and best uses? The subject interests me and I know just enough about it to end up putting my foot in my mouth.
There is a book called "The handbook of polygraphy", edited by Kleiner (Academic Press, 2002) , that has a good chapter on CIT (aka GKT), by a Japanese practitioner. According to him, the Japanese polygraphy community uses CIT's almost exclusively, stating that many polygraphers have never even seen a CQT.
I think a lot of the problem is one of background and training. CIT's are a more recent invention and were adopted in Japan as there wasn't the inertia of a pre-existing polygraph infrastructure. CIT's are useless for screening but great for specific incident situations where details are not widely known. I think polygraphers are missing the boat by not training in the CIT in this country. You don't have the problem of >50% of the people failing those.
-Marty
Posted by orolan
- Jun 18, 2003, 01:30 AMDrew,
Under the circumstances I would expect no more than a speculative answer on the subject. It is highly likely at this point that luck is going to play the biggest part in solving this case.
As you said, the GKT most likely would have performed much better than the CQT had it been used in the early stages of the investigation.
On the subject of the GKT, where would one find informative discourses on its pros, cons and best uses? The subject interests me and I know just enough about it to end up putting my foot in my mouth.
Under the circumstances I would expect no more than a speculative answer on the subject. It is highly likely at this point that luck is going to play the biggest part in solving this case.
As you said, the GKT most likely would have performed much better than the CQT had it been used in the early stages of the investigation.
On the subject of the GKT, where would one find informative discourses on its pros, cons and best uses? The subject interests me and I know just enough about it to end up putting my foot in my mouth.
Posted by Drew Richardson
- Jun 17, 2003, 08:59 PMOrolan,
Because I have not spoken with those investigating the matter, anything I might say in answer to your two questions other than 'I don't know" would be idle speculation. I would hope proper planning, well executed investigation and/or good luck would lead to an affirmative answer to both questions...
Because I have not spoken with those investigating the matter, anything I might say in answer to your two questions other than 'I don't know" would be idle speculation. I would hope proper planning, well executed investigation and/or good luck would lead to an affirmative answer to both questions...
Posted by orolan
- Jun 17, 2003, 07:18 PMDrew,
Do you think at this stage that a viable suite of GKT questions could be formulated for this case? Do you think the police have enough facts that haven't been given out to the media?
Do you think at this stage that a viable suite of GKT questions could be formulated for this case? Do you think the police have enough facts that haven't been given out to the media?
Posted by Drew Richardson
- Jun 17, 2003, 06:13 PMAssuming the facts as publicly reported are accurate and unless one is willing to postulate that this case involves a conspiracy of at least eleven people, this becomes one more example of why concealed information tests should be the bread and butter of those seeking instrumental evidence of suspect involvement in criminal matters under investigation. This is but one of many cases that have happened and will continue to happen (i.e., result in apparent absurdities) with so-called control question tests (CQTs). The whole town can quite easily react to the consequences surrounding being asked about their individual invovlement in a crime but only the perpetrator(s) of a crime should react in a statistically significant fashion to properly chosen concealed information items. The sort of thing that is seen in Agatha Christie's Murder on the Orient Express (i.e., everybody dun it) should largely be left to the realm of fiction and not brought into and left confusing real criminal investigations...
Posted by orolan
- Jun 17, 2003, 01:57 PMA quote from District Attorney Conte's press conference yesterday afternoon:
"The district attorney said his investigators have already started the investigation's second phase. ''We are going to be interviewing, reinterviewing people,'' he said. ''We're going to ask certain people to take the lie detector test.''
He also acknowledged that 11 of 20 people who have taken the test failed it. ''Quite honestly, I'm quite skeptical about lie detector tests,'' he said. ''However, we do use them as an investigative tool.''"
"The district attorney said his investigators have already started the investigation's second phase. ''We are going to be interviewing, reinterviewing people,'' he said. ''We're going to ask certain people to take the lie detector test.''
He also acknowledged that 11 of 20 people who have taken the test failed it. ''Quite honestly, I'm quite skeptical about lie detector tests,'' he said. ''However, we do use them as an investigative tool.''"
Posted by orolan
- Jun 01, 2003, 09:32 PMTwoblock,
Link to most of Dr. Furedy's relevant works, in case you need it.
http://www.psych.utoronto.ca/~furedy/
Link to most of Dr. Furedy's relevant works, in case you need it.
http://www.psych.utoronto.ca/~furedy/
Posted by Twoblock
- Jun 01, 2003, 01:44 PMThanks George
I have not read any publication by Prof. Furedy. I have seen references to him here, but I don't remember the content. Maybe I should do more reading research before I go half-cocked into something that has already been determined. A couple of times my impulsiveness has caused me to appear a little dumb.
It looks as if my efforts should be redirected toward bringing this data to the fore.
I have not read any publication by Prof. Furedy. I have seen references to him here, but I don't remember the content. Maybe I should do more reading research before I go half-cocked into something that has already been determined. A couple of times my impulsiveness has caused me to appear a little dumb.
It looks as if my efforts should be redirected toward bringing this data to the fore.
Posted by George W. Maschke
- Jun 01, 2003, 07:07 AMTwoblock,
I don't think there is any controversy over whether such emotional states as anger, fear, anxiety, or embarassment can produce reactions measurable by the polygraph (not just cardio reactions, but also breathing and skin conductance). They certainly can.
The problem, as Professor John J. Furedy has observed, is that the polygraph is "virtually useless for differentiating the anxious-but-innocent person from the anxious-and-guilty one."
I don't think there is any controversy over whether such emotional states as anger, fear, anxiety, or embarassment can produce reactions measurable by the polygraph (not just cardio reactions, but also breathing and skin conductance). They certainly can.
The problem, as Professor John J. Furedy has observed, is that the polygraph is "virtually useless for differentiating the anxious-but-innocent person from the anxious-and-guilty one."