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Posted by Poly-Killer
- May 27, 2003, 06:00 AMI was just reading this thread and it's a shame what has happened to papabluemarlin. Here is one of the reasons I think this whole poly screening thing should be scrapped. It doesn't have anything directly to do with papabluemarlin's experience, but it is another example of the inaccuracy of the poly. Papablue, I commend you for standing up for youself, I wish more would do the same.
I have, in the past, advised friends and acquantances to challenge their poly results after being disqualified. A very close friend was DQ'd, his letter from the department stated in part "...showed significant emotional response to several relevant questions. This is typically indicative of deception." When I read the letter, I thought "what kind of wishy washy BS is this?"
Anyway, the more he tried to challenge his results, the more resistance he ran into. When they finally did allow him to retest, it was at his own expense but they still determined when and where the poly took place. The department also forwarded the results of his first poly to the 2nd examiner and, big surprise, he failed. Since this was his 2nd failure, he was told he was no longer eligible for appointment and could not re-apply for 2 years. The deck was stacked against him from the very start. He was understandably very upset and has since pursued other things. Prior to testing, he had graduated with a bachelors degree and criminal justice and an associates in human resource management, he wanted to move up the ranks. He was so angered by this whole sham, he says no longer even wants to be in LE. This is just another example of our department, who always whines about being "undermanned", and the community we serve, missing out on another individual that would have made an outstanding officer and a great leader. All because of that fine piece of investigative machinery, the all-knowing polygraph.
What a shame,
PK
I have, in the past, advised friends and acquantances to challenge their poly results after being disqualified. A very close friend was DQ'd, his letter from the department stated in part "...showed significant emotional response to several relevant questions. This is typically indicative of deception." When I read the letter, I thought "what kind of wishy washy BS is this?"
Anyway, the more he tried to challenge his results, the more resistance he ran into. When they finally did allow him to retest, it was at his own expense but they still determined when and where the poly took place. The department also forwarded the results of his first poly to the 2nd examiner and, big surprise, he failed. Since this was his 2nd failure, he was told he was no longer eligible for appointment and could not re-apply for 2 years. The deck was stacked against him from the very start. He was understandably very upset and has since pursued other things. Prior to testing, he had graduated with a bachelors degree and criminal justice and an associates in human resource management, he wanted to move up the ranks. He was so angered by this whole sham, he says no longer even wants to be in LE. This is just another example of our department, who always whines about being "undermanned", and the community we serve, missing out on another individual that would have made an outstanding officer and a great leader. All because of that fine piece of investigative machinery, the all-knowing polygraph.
What a shame,
PK
Posted by PapaBlueMarlin
- May 26, 2003, 05:59 AMI asked for a copy of the materials in my first letter, but I didn't request a retest because I no longer wished to work with that agency.
Posted by orolan
- May 24, 2003, 02:08 PMPapaBlueMarlin,
Looks like typical BS to me. Did you ask for a re-test in the letter you sent them? If you didn't, you should do so now. You might also ask for the materials related to the 1st one, telling them you wish to submit them to an impartial 3rd-party for QC review.
Odds are they'll tell you that a re-test is not available, and they'll tell you that you can't have the materials. But give them the chance to say so.
Looks like typical BS to me. Did you ask for a re-test in the letter you sent them? If you didn't, you should do so now. You might also ask for the materials related to the 1st one, telling them you wish to submit them to an impartial 3rd-party for QC review.
Odds are they'll tell you that a re-test is not available, and they'll tell you that you can't have the materials. But give them the chance to say so.
Posted by PapaBlueMarlin
- May 23, 2003, 08:11 PMThis is the letter I received back from state police:
Dear Mr. _____:
I am writing in response to your letter dated May 9, 2003. At the outset let me say that any and all materials collected as a part of our employment process are considered confidential and will be maintained in a manner consistent with that designation.
It is unfortunate that our hiring process has eliminated you as a potential intern, as you appear to have the credentials necessary to be a successful forensic scientist. Our present guidelines are very strict in this regard, successful completion of a polygraph test is a mandatory requirement. A failure to successfully complete the test simply terminates the process and eliminates you as a potential candidate for the available positions. Termination of the process should not be interpreted as a "reason to discontinue working in this field." Nor should it suggest to you that future employment with our agency, or other similar agencies, is an impossibility.
I wish you continued success in your endeavors to work in the field of forensic science.
Sincerely,
Captain ______
Laboratory Director
Dear Mr. _____:
I am writing in response to your letter dated May 9, 2003. At the outset let me say that any and all materials collected as a part of our employment process are considered confidential and will be maintained in a manner consistent with that designation.
It is unfortunate that our hiring process has eliminated you as a potential intern, as you appear to have the credentials necessary to be a successful forensic scientist. Our present guidelines are very strict in this regard, successful completion of a polygraph test is a mandatory requirement. A failure to successfully complete the test simply terminates the process and eliminates you as a potential candidate for the available positions. Termination of the process should not be interpreted as a "reason to discontinue working in this field." Nor should it suggest to you that future employment with our agency, or other similar agencies, is an impossibility.
I wish you continued success in your endeavors to work in the field of forensic science.
Sincerely,
Captain ______
Laboratory Director
Posted by Fair Chance
- May 12, 2003, 01:37 AMDear PapaBlueMarlin,
Instead of standing by and doing nothing, you have made an effort to defend yourself and send a letter. This alone makes you stand above the nine out of ten other people who do not send any letter of disagreement with your stated results. Some people talk the talk, some people walk the walk. I admire you for taking the time and energy necessary to send your letter of appeal.
Stand your ground and look in the mirror. You have done well. At the end of everything else, that is the final measure, looking in the mirror and accepting the image.
Regards.
Instead of standing by and doing nothing, you have made an effort to defend yourself and send a letter. This alone makes you stand above the nine out of ten other people who do not send any letter of disagreement with your stated results. Some people talk the talk, some people walk the walk. I admire you for taking the time and energy necessary to send your letter of appeal.
Stand your ground and look in the mirror. You have done well. At the end of everything else, that is the final measure, looking in the mirror and accepting the image.
Regards.
Posted by PapaBlueMarlin
- May 09, 2003, 05:47 PMI sent my letter of contest out today by certified mail. Hopefully, the results will acceptable, but I'm doubtful.
Posted by Fair Chance
- May 09, 2003, 09:50 AMDear PapaBlueMarlin,
I suggested a format on a posting under "Polygraph and CVSA Forums/ CVSA/ RE:Yet Another Polygraph Question dated 11/21/02@12:11:37. Just substitute your state police instead of FBI. I have not had anyone contact me positively or negatively after using this format so I cannot tell you how well it works for other people. Most of the people who stated to me that they were going to use it also stated that they would contact me if they did not get any results within a few months. I have not been contacted by anyone yet. It was successful for me.
Good luck (unfortunately, passing a pre-screening polygraph is like a roll of the dice and some luck is needed).
Regards.
I suggested a format on a posting under "Polygraph and CVSA Forums/ CVSA/ RE:Yet Another Polygraph Question dated 11/21/02@12:11:37. Just substitute your state police instead of FBI. I have not had anyone contact me positively or negatively after using this format so I cannot tell you how well it works for other people. Most of the people who stated to me that they were going to use it also stated that they would contact me if they did not get any results within a few months. I have not been contacted by anyone yet. It was successful for me.
Good luck (unfortunately, passing a pre-screening polygraph is like a roll of the dice and some luck is needed).
Regards.
Posted by PapaBlueMarlin
- May 09, 2003, 06:04 AMI am writing my letter of contest right now. What should I put in it?
Posted by Fair Chance
- May 08, 2003, 01:23 PMQuote from: PapaBlueMarlin on May 08, 2003, 12:54 PMNow I feel really stupid for disclosing that information. I thought I was just being honest and trying to help myself out.Your whole experience has happened many times to many who "have trusted in the system of polygraph prescreening."
Use your mind and wordprocessor to fight back via that certified return receipt letter today.
Regards.
Posted by PapaBlueMarlin
- May 08, 2003, 12:54 PMNow I feel really stupid for disclosing that information. I thought I was just being honest and trying to help myself out.
Posted by Tom Cullen
- May 08, 2003, 06:17 AM"............I was forced to disclose a traumatic incident where I had been victimized by another boy"
This is why it is important not to disclose anything, no matter how innocent you think it is.
The is the polygraphers logic is:
1. There is a troublesome looking readout on the graph.
2. Okay, now I have to justify this blemish on the graph with some sort of admission.
3. Trick, deceive, cajol, threaten....etc. the testee until I can get them to make some sort of admission which I can then use as evidence to support the blemish on the graph.
CONCLUSION: DON'T ADMIT SHIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!
"What Mr/mse. polygrapher, I failed your question about having sex with farm yard animals? Must be something wrong with your machine, because I've done nothing of the sort! And no, there is nothing troubling me, and nothing I want to get off my chest. "
TC
This is why it is important not to disclose anything, no matter how innocent you think it is.
The is the polygraphers logic is:
1. There is a troublesome looking readout on the graph.
2. Okay, now I have to justify this blemish on the graph with some sort of admission.
3. Trick, deceive, cajol, threaten....etc. the testee until I can get them to make some sort of admission which I can then use as evidence to support the blemish on the graph.
CONCLUSION: DON'T ADMIT SHIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!
"What Mr/mse. polygrapher, I failed your question about having sex with farm yard animals? Must be something wrong with your machine, because I've done nothing of the sort! And no, there is nothing troubling me, and nothing I want to get off my chest. "
TC
Posted by George W. Maschke
- May 07, 2003, 02:35 PMAs Orolan suggested, you should send your letter challenging the polygraph results and requesting a re-test to your state police. If you do not receive a satisfactory response, then you can take up the issue with your state attorney general.
Posted by PapaBlueMarlin
- May 07, 2003, 02:29 PMWho should I write to? The State Police or the State's Attorney's Office?
Posted by Fair Chance
- May 07, 2003, 10:04 AMQuote from: PapaBlueMarlin on May 06, 2003, 10:57 PMDear PapaBlueMarlin,
I was completely truthful. When they started digging I disclosed as much as what came to me. Believe me I did not hold anything back and I STILL failed.
I was in your shoes. I appealed my second "not within acceptable parameters" polygraph in writing via certified return receipt mail.
To make a long story short, after almost one year of an intense background investigation and months of physical tests, the FBI cannot find anything but confirmation of my integrity and ability to do the job.
The pre-screening polygraph is an interrogation prop which has absolutely no scientific integrity or basis. As you are a student of empirical results, you must know this by now.
Please write and contest your results immediately. Go on record and get this entered into your file for the future.
Regards.
Posted by George W. Maschke
- May 07, 2003, 08:19 AMPapaBlueMarlin,
I agree with Orolan that you should contest your polygrapher's opinion and request a "re-test." It's important that you do this in writing; it would also be prudent to send your letter by certified, return-receipt mail so that you will have proof that your letter was received. If you don't contest your polygrapher's opinion in writing, your silence may be interpreted as a tacit acknowledgement of guilt/deception.
In addition, you should seek copies of the polygrapher's report, polygraph charts, supporting documentation, and any audio or video recording of the interrogation under your state's freedom of information law. (Most states have a public information access law similar to the federal Freedom of Information Act.) Some who have obtained their polygraph records have found innocuous statements spun into damaging admissions, and in some cases, polygraphers have even fabricated admissions. (Polygraphers who are evaluated on the basis of the number of admissions/confessions they obtain have a strong incentive to inflate/fabricate same, and in most cases, they face little risk of being caught: most polygraph victims apparently do not seek and obtain their polygraph reports.)
As for using beta blockers to reduce one's overall level of reactivity during a polygraph examination, it's important to note that the key to passing is to produce stronger reactions to the "control" questions than to the relevant questions. There is no known drug that will differentially affect reactions to either "control" or relevant questions. However, reactions to "control" questions can easily be created/augmented through self-stimulation, and several techniques for doing so are described in Chapter 4 of The Lie Behind the Lie Detector.
I agree with Orolan that you should contest your polygrapher's opinion and request a "re-test." It's important that you do this in writing; it would also be prudent to send your letter by certified, return-receipt mail so that you will have proof that your letter was received. If you don't contest your polygrapher's opinion in writing, your silence may be interpreted as a tacit acknowledgement of guilt/deception.
In addition, you should seek copies of the polygrapher's report, polygraph charts, supporting documentation, and any audio or video recording of the interrogation under your state's freedom of information law. (Most states have a public information access law similar to the federal Freedom of Information Act.) Some who have obtained their polygraph records have found innocuous statements spun into damaging admissions, and in some cases, polygraphers have even fabricated admissions. (Polygraphers who are evaluated on the basis of the number of admissions/confessions they obtain have a strong incentive to inflate/fabricate same, and in most cases, they face little risk of being caught: most polygraph victims apparently do not seek and obtain their polygraph reports.)
As for using beta blockers to reduce one's overall level of reactivity during a polygraph examination, it's important to note that the key to passing is to produce stronger reactions to the "control" questions than to the relevant questions. There is no known drug that will differentially affect reactions to either "control" or relevant questions. However, reactions to "control" questions can easily be created/augmented through self-stimulation, and several techniques for doing so are described in Chapter 4 of The Lie Behind the Lie Detector.