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A forum for free and open discussion of polygraph-related topics
Posted by triple x
- Mar 22, 2003, 09:09 PMicedancer,
Although the tongue bite could prove effective during a polygraph examination if performed properly, one must also exercise extreme care not to alert the polygrapher. It is relatively easy to detect a subject attempting to employ the tongue bite.
You may want to consider other polygraph countermeasures that are superior to the tongue bite, not as easy to detect.
As George has said, you should download [for free] and read chapters 3 and 4 of "TLBTLD".
In closing, honesty and integrity are always the best way to go when applying for any job. However, simply being honest and telling the truth during a polygraph is no guarantee of a passing result. False positive results are not uncommon.
If you are considering the use of tongue biting as a means of employing polygraph countermeasures, do yourself a favor and read the free booklet "TLBTLD" available here on this website. You will be much better off.
Remember, knowledge is power. "Be informed".
Respectfully,
Triple x
Although the tongue bite could prove effective during a polygraph examination if performed properly, one must also exercise extreme care not to alert the polygrapher. It is relatively easy to detect a subject attempting to employ the tongue bite.
You may want to consider other polygraph countermeasures that are superior to the tongue bite, not as easy to detect.
As George has said, you should download [for free] and read chapters 3 and 4 of "TLBTLD".
In closing, honesty and integrity are always the best way to go when applying for any job. However, simply being honest and telling the truth during a polygraph is no guarantee of a passing result. False positive results are not uncommon.
If you are considering the use of tongue biting as a means of employing polygraph countermeasures, do yourself a favor and read the free booklet "TLBTLD" available here on this website. You will be much better off.
Remember, knowledge is power. "Be informed".
Respectfully,
Triple x
Posted by beech trees
- Mar 22, 2003, 04:35 PMQuote from: wondering on Mar 22, 2003, 03:49 PM
GEORGE, YOU WERE ACCUSED OF DECEPTION ON ALL THE RELEVANT QUESTIONS? AND YOU WERE BEING TRUTHFUL? UNFORTUNATELY WE ONLY HAVE YOUR WORD ON THAT - AND YOU HAVE FLUNKED ONE POLYGRAPH TEST ALREADY. HUMMM......
Conversely, a professional liar reported that George was being untruthful? Hmmmmmmm.........
Posted by wondering
- Mar 22, 2003, 03:49 PMy case, it's the same exam that George, Mark and others have reportedly "failed" and sparked their pursuit to plunder polygraph. If they would honestly replay their exams in their heads they would no doubt discover the reason they "failed". The polygraph process, exam or Examiner didn't fail them. They may never acknowledge it here but everyone of them knows the reason they responded to the relevant (i.e. security) questions...the Examiner doesn't know, we may never know but they know!!!
You are dead wrong. I answered all questions truthfully during my FBI pre-employment polygraph examination and was nonetheless falsely accused of deception with regard to all relevant questions.
GEORGE, YOU WERE ACCUSED OF DECEPTION ON ALL THE RELEVANT QUESTIONS? AND YOU WERE BEING TRUTHFUL? UNFORTUNATELY WE ONLY HAVE YOUR WORD ON THAT - AND YOU HAVE FLUNKED ONE POLYGRAPH TEST ALREADY. HUMMM......
You are dead wrong. I answered all questions truthfully during my FBI pre-employment polygraph examination and was nonetheless falsely accused of deception with regard to all relevant questions.
GEORGE, YOU WERE ACCUSED OF DECEPTION ON ALL THE RELEVANT QUESTIONS? AND YOU WERE BEING TRUTHFUL? UNFORTUNATELY WE ONLY HAVE YOUR WORD ON THAT - AND YOU HAVE FLUNKED ONE POLYGRAPH TEST ALREADY. HUMMM......
Posted by George W. Maschke
- Mar 22, 2003, 09:50 AMLieChazer,
You are dead wrong. I answered all questions truthfully during my FBI pre-employment polygraph examination and was nonetheless falsely accused of deception with regard to all relevant questions. Mark Mallah was also truthful in his FBI polygraph examination, and the Bureau specifically cleared him.
QuoteIn my case, it's the same exam that George, Mark and others have reportedly "failed" and sparked their pursuit to plunder polygraph. If they would honestly replay their exams in their heads they would no doubt discover the reason they "failed". The polygraph process, exam or Examiner didn't fail them. They may never acknowledge it here but everyone of them knows the reason they responded to the relevant (i.e. security) questions...the Examiner doesn't know, we may never know but they know!!!
You are dead wrong. I answered all questions truthfully during my FBI pre-employment polygraph examination and was nonetheless falsely accused of deception with regard to all relevant questions. Mark Mallah was also truthful in his FBI polygraph examination, and the Bureau specifically cleared him.
Posted by LieChazer
- Mar 22, 2003, 08:01 AMOrolan,
In my case, it's the same exam that George, Mark and others have reportedly "failed" and sparked their pursuit to plunder polygraph. If they would honestly replay their exams in their heads they would no doubt discover the reason they "failed". The polygraph process, exam or Examiner didn't fail them. They may never acknowledge it here but everyone of them knows the reason they responded to the relevant (i.e. security) questions...the Examiner doesn't know, we may never know but they know!!!
If "Icedancer" is still listening and doesn't want to have to receive tetnus shots from rusted tacks, or speak with a noticable lisp for a week from a sore tongue and most definately wants to save the laundry bill for the soiled drawers, take my advice. I have been where you are, I have had the same concerns and I didn't need countermeasures to pass my exam...don't be a loser!
In my case, it's the same exam that George, Mark and others have reportedly "failed" and sparked their pursuit to plunder polygraph. If they would honestly replay their exams in their heads they would no doubt discover the reason they "failed". The polygraph process, exam or Examiner didn't fail them. They may never acknowledge it here but everyone of them knows the reason they responded to the relevant (i.e. security) questions...the Examiner doesn't know, we may never know but they know!!!
If "Icedancer" is still listening and doesn't want to have to receive tetnus shots from rusted tacks, or speak with a noticable lisp for a week from a sore tongue and most definately wants to save the laundry bill for the soiled drawers, take my advice. I have been where you are, I have had the same concerns and I didn't need countermeasures to pass my exam...don't be a loser!
Posted by orolan
- Mar 21, 2003, 12:11 PMA question for you LieChazer, that has always nagged in the back of my mind. In regard to your statement; "I would also explain that I, like most other examiners, have taken polygraph exams routinely and are testiment that you don't have to cheat to pass.", what exactly is the topic of these tests you give each other?
Posted by yankeedog
- Mar 21, 2003, 11:28 AMIcedancer,
Do it correct and you'll have no problem. Be sure to bite the side of your tongue since this area is more susceptible to pain...and bite real hard, but no hard enough to bleed, and only after what you think is the control question. Before going into the test, have a tac hammered into the bottom of your shoe so that it is long enough for you to feel it, but you can still walk without any problem. Push down real hard at what you think is the control question. Some examiners have you remove your shoes before the test, so if you just stick a tac in your show, they'll find it and accuse you of countermeasures. If you nail it in from the bottom of the shoe they won't see it. At the same time you bite your tongue and step down on the tac, pucker your butt, and then push out real hard. You do these things all at once and you will probably have the following:
1. Pretty clear and easy to read charts.
2. A sore tongue
3. A bloody foot
4. The possibility of soiled drawers
Good luck!
Do it correct and you'll have no problem. Be sure to bite the side of your tongue since this area is more susceptible to pain...and bite real hard, but no hard enough to bleed, and only after what you think is the control question. Before going into the test, have a tac hammered into the bottom of your shoe so that it is long enough for you to feel it, but you can still walk without any problem. Push down real hard at what you think is the control question. Some examiners have you remove your shoes before the test, so if you just stick a tac in your show, they'll find it and accuse you of countermeasures. If you nail it in from the bottom of the shoe they won't see it. At the same time you bite your tongue and step down on the tac, pucker your butt, and then push out real hard. You do these things all at once and you will probably have the following:
1. Pretty clear and easy to read charts.
2. A sore tongue
3. A bloody foot
4. The possibility of soiled drawers
Good luck!
Posted by George W. Maschke
- Mar 21, 2003, 07:53 AMLieChazer,
The fact that polygraphers are subjected to polygraph examinations is a meaningless exercise that testifies to nothing and is merely a reflection of the polygraph community's need to maintain the illusion that polygraphy has some validity.
Again, the peer-reviewed research on countermeasures suggests that even experienced polygraphers cannot detect countermeasures of the kind described in The Lie Behind the Lie Detector (to include tongue-biting) at better-than-chance levels.
I do not maintain that all examiners would accuse anyone with knowledge of polygraphy of deception and/or countermeasures. But that seems to be the most common result based on accounts received by AntiPolygraph.org. Again, polygraph examinations administered by polygraphers to other polygraphers are evidence of nothing in this regard.
There is something fundamentally wrong with making decisions about the honesty and integrity of applicants and employees based on the pseudoscientific fraud that is polygraphy. The National Academy of Sciences last year completed a review of polygraph screening and found it to be completely invalid. So long as our government continues its foolish reliance on this pseudoscience, it would behoove anyone submitting to a polygraph interrogation to learn, practice, and employ countermeasures to protect him- or herself against the random error associated with this invalid "test."
QuoteI would also explain that I, like most other examiners, have taken polygraph exams routinely and are testiment that you don't have to cheat to pass.
The fact that polygraphers are subjected to polygraph examinations is a meaningless exercise that testifies to nothing and is merely a reflection of the polygraph community's need to maintain the illusion that polygraphy has some validity.
QuoteI also explain that distortions are unacceptable.
Again, the peer-reviewed research on countermeasures suggests that even experienced polygraphers cannot detect countermeasures of the kind described in The Lie Behind the Lie Detector (to include tongue-biting) at better-than-chance levels.
QuoteBut I don't think it fair for you to just state that all examiners would blanket that anyone with knowldge of polygraph would be using countermeasures...again most every examiner has had a polygraph and we know the process.
I do not maintain that all examiners would accuse anyone with knowledge of polygraphy of deception and/or countermeasures. But that seems to be the most common result based on accounts received by AntiPolygraph.org. Again, polygraph examinations administered by polygraphers to other polygraphers are evidence of nothing in this regard.
QuoteHowever I also should add that I think it fundamentally wrong for someone wanting access to our country's secrets or to protect our citizens as a law enforcement officer to consider using countermeasures. These folks are potential security risks and are those who would potentially be on the take or place a "throw-away" gun at a bad shooting. I expect a "tongue lashing" from anti-polygraph folks, but it just is true.
There is something fundamentally wrong with making decisions about the honesty and integrity of applicants and employees based on the pseudoscientific fraud that is polygraphy. The National Academy of Sciences last year completed a review of polygraph screening and found it to be completely invalid. So long as our government continues its foolish reliance on this pseudoscience, it would behoove anyone submitting to a polygraph interrogation to learn, practice, and employ countermeasures to protect him- or herself against the random error associated with this invalid "test."
Posted by LieChazer
- Mar 21, 2003, 06:24 AMMr Maschke,
My analogy was a bit "tongue in cheek" (I get it!!). I would welcome the open discussion of polygraph knowledge to any of my examinees. I would also explain that I, like most other examiners, have taken polygraph exams routinely and are testiment that you don't have to cheat to pass. I also explain that distortions are unacceptable. I explain that they are there voluntarily...albeit they might not be a law enforcement person or have access to classified information without the exam.
But I don't think it fair for you to just state that all examiners would blanket that anyone with knowldge of polygraph would be using countermeasures...again most every examiner has had a polygraph and we know the process.
However I also should add that I think it fundamentally wrong for someone wanting access to our country's secrets or to protect our citizens as a law enforcement officer to consider using countermeasures. These folks are potential security risks and are those who would potentially be on the take or place a "throw-away" gun at a bad shooting. I expect a "tongue lashing" from anti-polygraph folks, but it just is true.
Again, I suggest "Icedancer" talk to your examiner...you'll be glad you did.
My analogy was a bit "tongue in cheek" (I get it!!). I would welcome the open discussion of polygraph knowledge to any of my examinees. I would also explain that I, like most other examiners, have taken polygraph exams routinely and are testiment that you don't have to cheat to pass. I also explain that distortions are unacceptable. I explain that they are there voluntarily...albeit they might not be a law enforcement person or have access to classified information without the exam.
But I don't think it fair for you to just state that all examiners would blanket that anyone with knowldge of polygraph would be using countermeasures...again most every examiner has had a polygraph and we know the process.
However I also should add that I think it fundamentally wrong for someone wanting access to our country's secrets or to protect our citizens as a law enforcement officer to consider using countermeasures. These folks are potential security risks and are those who would potentially be on the take or place a "throw-away" gun at a bad shooting. I expect a "tongue lashing" from anti-polygraph folks, but it just is true.
Again, I suggest "Icedancer" talk to your examiner...you'll be glad you did.
Posted by George W. Maschke
- Mar 21, 2003, 05:14 AMLieChazer,
I agree with you that those seeking security clearances should be forthright with their polygraph examiners. Ideally, they should also admit to having visited AntiPolygraph.org and to knowing "the lie behind the lie detector." Regrettably, however, it seems that the polygraph community has decided to arbitrarily accuse any who admit to such knowledge of deception and/or countermeasures. Apparently, this community cannot abide those honest enough to admit knowing the truth about their fraudulent profession.
You make a false analogy with your comparison of tongue-biting as a countermeasure to touching one's tongue to a frozen flagpole. You are suggesting that those making information on countermeasures available are secretly trying to trick and cause harm to those to whom the information is provided. This is utter nonsense. The effectiveness of tongue-biting as a countermeasure, and the inability of even experienced polygraphers to detect it, is supported by peer-reviewed research cited in Chapter 4 of The Lie Behind the Lie Detector.
A better analogy to the bunch of kids who convince a gullible child to touch his tongue to the frozen flagpole is the polygraph community: a community that lies to and otherwise deceives those "tested" from beginning to end of the polygraph process.
I agree with you that those seeking security clearances should be forthright with their polygraph examiners. Ideally, they should also admit to having visited AntiPolygraph.org and to knowing "the lie behind the lie detector." Regrettably, however, it seems that the polygraph community has decided to arbitrarily accuse any who admit to such knowledge of deception and/or countermeasures. Apparently, this community cannot abide those honest enough to admit knowing the truth about their fraudulent profession.
You make a false analogy with your comparison of tongue-biting as a countermeasure to touching one's tongue to a frozen flagpole. You are suggesting that those making information on countermeasures available are secretly trying to trick and cause harm to those to whom the information is provided. This is utter nonsense. The effectiveness of tongue-biting as a countermeasure, and the inability of even experienced polygraphers to detect it, is supported by peer-reviewed research cited in Chapter 4 of The Lie Behind the Lie Detector.
A better analogy to the bunch of kids who convince a gullible child to touch his tongue to the frozen flagpole is the polygraph community: a community that lies to and otherwise deceives those "tested" from beginning to end of the polygraph process.
Posted by LieChazer
- Mar 20, 2003, 11:00 PMIcedancer,
May I remind you of another "icedancer" that felt she needed to cheat to win...Tonya Harding. Not only did she get run out of the skating profession, she ended up taking a beating as a boxer. Moral here: Don't come to the "arena" (polygraph exam) planning on cheating. I don't know why you're being asked to take a polygraph because for a SBI clearance. I would suggest being forthright with your Examiner ( a suggestion not echoed by many who write here). If you have a concern about a certain question during the review process, asked the Examiner.
One of my favorite movies is the "Christmas Story" and I recall a scene where the kids convince this one guy to stick his tongue on a flag pole and of course it gets stuck.
Whomever suggested to you to bite your tongue during the polygraph examination probably tried to have somebody put their tongue on a flag pole in the past
Hopefully you won't be dumb enough to try it!! Good luck..write back when you pass (hopefully without having had to try and cheat...or I heard Tonya is taking on all comers (HA)
May I remind you of another "icedancer" that felt she needed to cheat to win...Tonya Harding. Not only did she get run out of the skating profession, she ended up taking a beating as a boxer. Moral here: Don't come to the "arena" (polygraph exam) planning on cheating. I don't know why you're being asked to take a polygraph because for a SBI clearance. I would suggest being forthright with your Examiner ( a suggestion not echoed by many who write here). If you have a concern about a certain question during the review process, asked the Examiner.
One of my favorite movies is the "Christmas Story" and I recall a scene where the kids convince this one guy to stick his tongue on a flag pole and of course it gets stuck.
Whomever suggested to you to bite your tongue during the polygraph examination probably tried to have somebody put their tongue on a flag pole in the past
Hopefully you won't be dumb enough to try it!! Good luck..write back when you pass (hopefully without having had to try and cheat...or I heard Tonya is taking on all comers (HA)
Posted by George W. Maschke
- Mar 20, 2003, 04:26 AMicedancer,
Regarding your questions, see The Lie Behind the Lie Detector, especially chapters 3 & 4. Also with regard to DoD's counterintelligence-scope polygraph program, see the message thread How to Pass the DoD CI-Scope Polygraph and my article, "The Lying Game: National Security and the Test for Espionage and Sabotage."
Regarding your questions, see The Lie Behind the Lie Detector, especially chapters 3 & 4. Also with regard to DoD's counterintelligence-scope polygraph program, see the message thread How to Pass the DoD CI-Scope Polygraph and my article, "The Lying Game: National Security and the Test for Espionage and Sabotage."
Posted by icedancer
- Mar 20, 2003, 02:12 AMI will be taking a DoD SBI poly in the next few weeks. I read that, during the control question, one should inflict some pain on one's self, such as biting one's tongue. If I recognize the control question, when do I bite my tongue? I believe I am to (discreetly) bite my tongue, then answer, then bite again and hold until the next question begins. Is this correct? If so, won't the time I am not biting cause the reading to make a dip? Won't that dip be obvious on the charts?
Are all questions while hooked up to the polygraph simple answer questions, such as "yes" and "no"? Or will I have to provide longer responses? If so, how do I manage the tongue biting?
Are all questions while hooked up to the polygraph simple answer questions, such as "yes" and "no"? Or will I have to provide longer responses? If so, how do I manage the tongue biting?