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A forum for free and open discussion of polygraph-related topics
Posted by iwishiknew
- Jan 03, 2005, 01:10 AMi am curious to hear if anyone knows of discrimination against gays in the clearance process. i am gay and was accused of molesting boys because i revealed an incident that has haunted me since i was 13. i spoke of this only because i knew it bothered me still and i always considered it a "crime". i disclosed this in my initial polygraphs at both cia and nsa. i had a second polygraph the very next day at cia and second one at nsa about three months after my first nsa poly. in both of the second polys i felt "fine" enough and was almost confident that i had "resolved" the issues. i still came away feeling as though judgements were made based on my sexual orientation and not fact.
despite all the bullshit, i would like to pursue the job i was offered. has anyone heard of someone being "removed from processing" to be allowed to re-apply and succeed? i do not want to waste any more time thinking about this if it is truly not possible. i am waiting for my FOIA request to be processed. judging from past communications, i expect the response to be just as useless as previous responses. i look to you all for your experience.
interesting of note - the nsa knows from testing i know three of the languages most desperately needed right now. i learned them from scratch as a non-native and have achieved high levels of proficiency. i think it curious that someone who has such abilities and who wants to help is treated so poorly.
thank you.
despite all the bullshit, i would like to pursue the job i was offered. has anyone heard of someone being "removed from processing" to be allowed to re-apply and succeed? i do not want to waste any more time thinking about this if it is truly not possible. i am waiting for my FOIA request to be processed. judging from past communications, i expect the response to be just as useless as previous responses. i look to you all for your experience.
interesting of note - the nsa knows from testing i know three of the languages most desperately needed right now. i learned them from scratch as a non-native and have achieved high levels of proficiency. i think it curious that someone who has such abilities and who wants to help is treated so poorly.
thank you.
Posted by triple x
- Feb 23, 2003, 05:35 PMDear Lurking Woman,
[You write]
"The inspectors haven't found nuclear bombs over there."
Just because the inspectors have not found any nuclear bombs in Iraq as of yet, does not mean that they are not there.
[Lurking woman also writes]
"Why didn't they find those who failed America in the FBI and CIA, get rid of them, and replace them with those who sounded alarm bells but weren't heard? Instead, they set out to destroy the courageous whistle-blowers, and leave the incompetents right where they are, or even promote them. Why wasn't the polygraph put to use for this purpose, if the pentagon is so convinced that it works?"
You raise an excellent point here. You "hit the nail on the head" when you remarked, "why wasn't the polygraph put to use for this purpose", that is because the Pentagon knows that the polygraph is unreliable, and susceptible to countermeasures. It might "bluff" a confession from a naive and gullible suspect from time to time; however, the government knows that polygraph testing is not reliable at all.
Consider this: if polygraph testing was remotely reliable, as is DNA testing, or finger print evidence directly linking a suspect to a specific crime, then polygraph results would be admissible in the court of law. Personally, I think that's a hard argument to influence otherwise.
What makes the United States so great and unique is not a pledge, a flag, or a song, all of which are more properly labeled culturally transitory trappings of patriotism. The USA is great because of a body of law and the people who have chosen to live under that law. That's why, in the United States when an immigrant takes the oath of citizenship, or when a citizen takes an oath of public office, they swear to uphold, not a flag, not the President, not a god, not an ideology, but the Constitution of the United States of America.
Likewise, terrorism as demonstrated by the suicidal murders of 9/11, and the present day fear of an ever-looming potential biological or nuclear attack somewhere within the USA should be stopped, fast and efficiently. However, there is no rapid response blueprint for accomplishing this goal. Things will be missed, suggestions overlooked, from various agents consisting of both the FBI and CIA. Hindsight is always 20/20, and laying blame comes easy from those on the outside looking in. As a free self-ruling democratic society, it is not only our right, but our responsibility to vigorously and openly debate the issues, the use of military force, our foreign policy, civil rights and privacy in a time of war, and so on. America Unites sounds great as a news logo; but unity is no simple concept. We all want our families, our soldiers, and our unions, to be united toward clear, common goals. But is it not dangerous for a democratic population weighing if and how to wage war to value unity above all else? It's all too easy to mandate patriotism, as the New York Board of Education brought back the pledge of allegiance to classrooms, as if that will stop the Osama bin Ladens of the world.
Respectfully
Triple x
[You write]
"The inspectors haven't found nuclear bombs over there."
Just because the inspectors have not found any nuclear bombs in Iraq as of yet, does not mean that they are not there.
[Lurking woman also writes]
"Why didn't they find those who failed America in the FBI and CIA, get rid of them, and replace them with those who sounded alarm bells but weren't heard? Instead, they set out to destroy the courageous whistle-blowers, and leave the incompetents right where they are, or even promote them. Why wasn't the polygraph put to use for this purpose, if the pentagon is so convinced that it works?"
You raise an excellent point here. You "hit the nail on the head" when you remarked, "why wasn't the polygraph put to use for this purpose", that is because the Pentagon knows that the polygraph is unreliable, and susceptible to countermeasures. It might "bluff" a confession from a naive and gullible suspect from time to time; however, the government knows that polygraph testing is not reliable at all.
Consider this: if polygraph testing was remotely reliable, as is DNA testing, or finger print evidence directly linking a suspect to a specific crime, then polygraph results would be admissible in the court of law. Personally, I think that's a hard argument to influence otherwise.
What makes the United States so great and unique is not a pledge, a flag, or a song, all of which are more properly labeled culturally transitory trappings of patriotism. The USA is great because of a body of law and the people who have chosen to live under that law. That's why, in the United States when an immigrant takes the oath of citizenship, or when a citizen takes an oath of public office, they swear to uphold, not a flag, not the President, not a god, not an ideology, but the Constitution of the United States of America.
Likewise, terrorism as demonstrated by the suicidal murders of 9/11, and the present day fear of an ever-looming potential biological or nuclear attack somewhere within the USA should be stopped, fast and efficiently. However, there is no rapid response blueprint for accomplishing this goal. Things will be missed, suggestions overlooked, from various agents consisting of both the FBI and CIA. Hindsight is always 20/20, and laying blame comes easy from those on the outside looking in. As a free self-ruling democratic society, it is not only our right, but our responsibility to vigorously and openly debate the issues, the use of military force, our foreign policy, civil rights and privacy in a time of war, and so on. America Unites sounds great as a news logo; but unity is no simple concept. We all want our families, our soldiers, and our unions, to be united toward clear, common goals. But is it not dangerous for a democratic population weighing if and how to wage war to value unity above all else? It's all too easy to mandate patriotism, as the New York Board of Education brought back the pledge of allegiance to classrooms, as if that will stop the Osama bin Ladens of the world.
Respectfully
Triple x
Posted by Marty
- Feb 22, 2003, 09:37 PMLurking woman,
To engage in debate there must be some agreement on the facts. Both sides of this have obfuscated them where convenient to bolster their positions and lock in their supporters.
You might reflect on the fact that after innumerable warnings and dire expectations there have been no successful attacks by Al Qaeda on the US since 9/11.
As for investigations, while it's America's favorite pastime to play blame games, I don't really see what could have predicted the specific coordinated, suicidal attack that was done, aside from HUMINT inside the heart of OBL's operations. As for the general case of terrorist attacks, they have long been predicited since Al Qaeda and other's war against the US has been long been understood.
-Marty
To engage in debate there must be some agreement on the facts. Both sides of this have obfuscated them where convenient to bolster their positions and lock in their supporters.
You might reflect on the fact that after innumerable warnings and dire expectations there have been no successful attacks by Al Qaeda on the US since 9/11.
As for investigations, while it's America's favorite pastime to play blame games, I don't really see what could have predicted the specific coordinated, suicidal attack that was done, aside from HUMINT inside the heart of OBL's operations. As for the general case of terrorist attacks, they have long been predicited since Al Qaeda and other's war against the US has been long been understood.
-Marty
Posted by the lurking woman
- Feb 22, 2003, 09:17 PMMarty,
After 9-11, why was there not a thorough, vigorous, comprehensive investigation of what went wrong?
Why didn't they find those who failed America in the FBI and CIA, get rid of them, and replace them with those who sounded alarm bells but weren't heard? Instead, they set out to destroy the courageous whistle-blowers, and leave the incompetents right where they are, or even promote them. Why wasn't the polygraph put to use for this purpose, if the pentagon is so convinced that it works?
Why not make the capture of Osama bin Laden and his al-qaeda operatives the number one priority, rather than quietly give up on this search, and direct attentions elsewhere, like Saddam Hussein (read oil interests.)
Even if things go perfectly, hundreds of Americans will die in America's invasion of Iraq. If things DON'T go well, tens of thousands of Americans will die because...why, exactly? The inspectors haven't found nuclear bombs over there. They haven't found a convincing al-qaeda connection. There's virtually NO EVIDENCE that we have to go to war at this time.
Seeker,
I agree, just polygraph Saddam, if they are worried about the weapons that were given to him by America.
Posted by Marty
- Feb 22, 2003, 05:31 PMThe arts of war are fairly well understood, having been studied for a very long time with un-natural selection culling the losers over the millenia. Darwin in action one might say.
PBS's Frontline has a very good, current series focusing on the discussions on policy behind this. Agree or not, 9/11 has produced a fundamental change in US foreign policy toward a preemptive approach. It's useful to understand the why's. I'm uneasy with the US playing worldwide cop but there good arguments why this may be right.
TwoBlock,
As for military strategy, you are right about the surprise factor. It provides significant advantage. That's why the Japanese attacked as they did. It has been reported that strategic surprise was impossible in Iraq due to the required buildup period but that they expected to achieve a degree of "tactical" surprise. My guess is that they are referring to the targets of the initial salvo of cruise missiles.
-Marty
PBS's Frontline has a very good, current series focusing on the discussions on policy behind this. Agree or not, 9/11 has produced a fundamental change in US foreign policy toward a preemptive approach. It's useful to understand the why's. I'm uneasy with the US playing worldwide cop but there good arguments why this may be right.
TwoBlock,
As for military strategy, you are right about the surprise factor. It provides significant advantage. That's why the Japanese attacked as they did. It has been reported that strategic surprise was impossible in Iraq due to the required buildup period but that they expected to achieve a degree of "tactical" surprise. My guess is that they are referring to the targets of the initial salvo of cruise missiles.
-Marty
Posted by Seeker
- Feb 22, 2003, 02:33 PMOk, so I admit that I may not be overly bright when it comes to politics and the chess game played by political leaders, but I am just wondering about something. Sadaam is well aware of our massive build up in the region near him. Why, why would he even contemplate the destruction of his weapons? I mean, it would seem to me that if it was my house, and I was told I had to give up all of my weapons or face being forced out of my house, I don't know that I would be willing to dispose of all of my weapontry. I would, especially if I was under the impression that all of those folks outside my door who were armed to the hilt were determined to evict me regardless of any concessions on my side.
Heck, since our intelligence agencies seem so apt to support the polygraph, why don't we just tell Sadaam to submit to a polygraph exam about his WMD? If history repeats itself, he will be touted as a professional liar if he passes, and as a proven terrorist if he fails. Either way, doesn't the US get what they want?
Showing my naivity:
Seeker
Heck, since our intelligence agencies seem so apt to support the polygraph, why don't we just tell Sadaam to submit to a polygraph exam about his WMD? If history repeats itself, he will be touted as a professional liar if he passes, and as a proven terrorist if he fails. Either way, doesn't the US get what they want?
Showing my naivity:
Seeker
Posted by Twoblock
- Feb 22, 2003, 02:12 PMthe lurking lady
What does ancient playwrite crap have to do with present day dictators who torture, maim and kill their own citizens who dare disagree with their twisted minded political views? Who, also, cowardly attacks this country causing death, distruction and great economic loss. At least we are warning Sodomy HisHiney that we are going to kick his ass unless he complies with the UN directive. Are you proposing that we ignore his atrocities against ones who cannot defend themselves? Would you like to live in his shadow in Iraq?
Bush and our allies made a big mistake in warning Iraq we are going to attack. This is not militarily sound. It puts undue risk on our military. Forewarned is forearmed.
What does ancient playwrite crap have to do with present day dictators who torture, maim and kill their own citizens who dare disagree with their twisted minded political views? Who, also, cowardly attacks this country causing death, distruction and great economic loss. At least we are warning Sodomy HisHiney that we are going to kick his ass unless he complies with the UN directive. Are you proposing that we ignore his atrocities against ones who cannot defend themselves? Would you like to live in his shadow in Iraq?
Bush and our allies made a big mistake in warning Iraq we are going to attack. This is not militarily sound. It puts undue risk on our military. Forewarned is forearmed.
Posted by the lurking woman
- Feb 22, 2003, 10:42 AM"Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenry into a patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword. It both emboldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind... And when the drums of war have reached a fever pitch and the blood boils with hate and the mind has closed, the leader will have no need in seizing the rights of the citizenry. Rather, the citizenry, infused with fear and blinded with patriotism, will offer up all of their rights unto the leader, and gladly so. How do I know? For this is what I have done. And I am Caesar."
-- Unknown Author
Thanks for noting the incorrect citation Marty!
According to this article, looks like I'm not the only one cutting and pasting from the web.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,890916,00.html
Is this an urban myth too?
"Those who are willing to sacrifice their basic liberties to assure their security deserve neither."
--Benjamin Franklin
Posted by Marty
- Feb 22, 2003, 07:54 AMQuote from: the lurking woman on Feb 22, 2003, 07:07 AM
Here's one for you:
"Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenry into a patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword. It both emboldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind... And when the drums of war have reached a fever pitch and the blood boils with hate and the mind has closed, the leader will have no need in seizing the rights of the citizenry. Rather, the citizenry, infused with fear and blinded with patriotism, will offer up all of their rights unto the leader, and gladly so. How do I know? For this is what I have done. And I am Caesar."
-- William Shakespeare in The Tragedy of Julius Caesar
That's all very nice but it is urban myth. Bab's herself got nailed for propagating this very nonsense.
http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/bl-caesar-quote.htm
-Marty
Posted by the lurking woman
- Feb 22, 2003, 07:07 AMQuote from: Twoblock on Feb 21, 2003, 02:11 PM
If I had my way, Oldsoma would be Layen and Soddam would be committing sodomy hell. North Korea wouldn't exist. Nuke'em.
BTW, I don't remember any anti-war postings on this site.
Here's one for you:
"Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenry into a patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword. It both emboldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind... And when the drums of war have reached a fever pitch and the blood boils with hate and the mind has closed, the leader will have no need in seizing the rights of the citizenry. Rather, the citizenry, infused with fear and blinded with patriotism, will offer up all of their rights unto the leader, and gladly so. How do I know? For this is what I have done. And I am Caesar."
-- William Shakespeare in The Tragedy of Julius Caesar
Posted by Twoblock
- Feb 21, 2003, 02:11 PMBack for a couple of days.
Torpedo
Your #1 tube doesn't concern me because my battery of K's are loaded with depth's.
Your assumption that I am on the side of leftists is about as accurate as the wonder woman box. I am about as far right as onyone can get. I just have a big thing against one man/woman controlling the livelyhood and life of a person. It's not right. I believe in hard evidence.
If I had my way, Oldsoma would be Layen and Soddam would be committing sodomy hell. North Korea wouldn't exist. Nuke'em.
BTW, I don't remember any anti-war postings on this site.
Torpedo
Your #1 tube doesn't concern me because my battery of K's are loaded with depth's.
Your assumption that I am on the side of leftists is about as accurate as the wonder woman box. I am about as far right as onyone can get. I just have a big thing against one man/woman controlling the livelyhood and life of a person. It's not right. I believe in hard evidence.
If I had my way, Oldsoma would be Layen and Soddam would be committing sodomy hell. North Korea wouldn't exist. Nuke'em.
BTW, I don't remember any anti-war postings on this site.
Posted by beech trees
- Feb 19, 2003, 12:20 PMQuote from: Torpedo on Feb 15, 2003, 09:44 PMDoes this mean I have to list George as a "close" and continuing relationship.....probably not because I am sure he is probably out there marching and holding signs with the war protestors in the Hague. My kind of friend!....[and also]and you come out on the side of some of the anti-war leftists on this site.....shame, shame, shame.
Torpedo, I knew your attitude reminded me of someone famous in recent history, but I couldn't recall exactly who it was until I read this:
All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.
The person who said that was your dear friend Hermann Goering, speaking at the Nuremberg Trials.
Keep your number one tube unflooded,
Dave
Posted by anonymouse1
- Feb 16, 2003, 10:02 PMQuote from: Torpedo on Feb 16, 2003, 07:21 PM
Hey anonymouse1....what are YOU talking about......I am sure that Two-Block knew what I was talking about and it certainly wasn't obscene as you make it out to be....at least one thing....you divulged your direction..."LEFT".....was that a Freudian slip?
Hmmm.... the lady doth protest too much, methinks
Seriously torpedo, as far as i'm concerned it's
DON'T ASK, DON'T TELL
Your thecret is thafe with us
Posted by Torpedo
- Feb 16, 2003, 07:21 PMHey anonymouse1....what are YOU talking about......I am sure that Two-Block knew what I was talking about and it certainly wasn't obscene as you make it out to be....at least one thing....you divulged your direction..."LEFT".....was that a Freudian slip?
Posted by anonymouse1
- Feb 16, 2003, 02:35 PMQuote from: Torpedo on Feb 16, 2003, 11:48 AM
Two Block......an old Navy man eh?...and you come out on the side of some of the anti-war leftists on this site.....shame, shame, shame. If this is true then my #1 tube is being acquired on you!
Um, a little more informationt han I really needed
This is a family bulletin board torpedo, the leather bar is down the street to the left...