- Welcome to AntiPolygraph.org Message Board.
A forum for free and open discussion of polygraph-related topics
Posted by George W. Maschke
- May 04, 2003, 04:09 PMAppendix B of the NSA's polygraph regulation provides some insight as to why many NSA applicants may receive as many as three polygraph sessions: the NSA's chief for security clearances has the authority, "with the concurrence of a
certified polygraph supervisory official," to bring an examinee back for as many as three "tests." A fourth examination requires a decision by the Director of Security, and any further examination(s) requires a decision by the Deputy Director for Administration.
Making applicants submit to the full three polygraph interrogations that require no special approval would enable the NSA polygraph unit to achieve the fullest level of employment for itself.
certified polygraph supervisory official," to bring an examinee back for as many as three "tests." A fourth examination requires a decision by the Director of Security, and any further examination(s) requires a decision by the Deputy Director for Administration.
Making applicants submit to the full three polygraph interrogations that require no special approval would enable the NSA polygraph unit to achieve the fullest level of employment for itself.
Posted by Skeptic
- Mar 14, 2003, 01:21 AMQuote from: PDDEX on Mar 13, 2003, 05:23 PM
when people tell me that they have a guilty "conscious" it is usually because they feel guilty about something. You may not think it's relevant to the polygraph exam, but you appear to be witholding something that you feel guilty about. Just let your examiner know what you are thinking about when you hear those questions you mentioned, and you will be fine. Most of the time the examiner isn't really concerned with information you provide, only that you provided everything.
Yep. Absolutely everything, regardless of whether it has any bearing on whether you can be trusted with a clearance. Tell your most irrelevant and embarrassing secrets, or you won't "pass" (or at the very least, you can expect to be subject to a high-pressure three-hour interrogation or two).
Can you see why many people would have a problem with this? Don't you?
For the record, of course, "guilty conscience" can also refer to being jumpy when someone in a position of authority is questioning you about something, or even being jumpy simply being around said authority. It could also refer more generally to the "fear of consequences" mentioned by Dr. Richardson.
Please don't think I don't understand why the NSA does this. I do, and I can appreciate their reasoning. But even knowing the rationale, I don't agree with it. And I know for a fact that they miss out on much-needed talent as a result.
Skeptic
Posted by PDDEX
- Mar 13, 2003, 05:23 PMwhen people tell me that they have a guilty "conscious" it is usually because they feel guilty about something. You may not think it's relevant to the polygraph exam, but you appear to be witholding something that you feel guilty about. Just let your examiner know what you are thinking about when you hear those questions you mentioned, and you will be fine. Most of the time the examiner isn't really concerned with information you provide, only that you provided everything.
Posted by Winston Smith
- Mar 06, 2003, 01:30 PMThank you NSA for spying on americans.
CitizenX
CitizenX
Quote from: integrity02 on Jan 25, 2003, 06:52 PM
Well folks, I'm about to give up on trying to get a clearance with the NSA (and consequently lose my job). I'm frustrated as heck because I know i'm worthy. The worst I've ever done was some minor shoplifting as a kid and recreational drug use in college. I've admitted to ALL of my wrongdoings, but i still seem to get reactions to a couple of questions. I feel helpless and frustrated, and am living proof that this polygraph testing is a complete joke. I can't stand the fact that i'm being 100% truthful and the polygrapher sits across from me and says "there's obviously something youre not telling me." In fact, i cut my last polygraph off early because he said i needed "to get something off my chest". I said "no i dont and that it was pointless to continue because I have nothing left to admit to". Regardless, I'm very disappointed to date, and very discouraged about my abilty to pass...even though I'm as honest, loyal, moral, and patriotic as they come.
One thing about me that certainly doesnt help is that I do consider myself a rather nervous/anxious person and I definitely do have a guilty conscious. I'm sure this works against me....but I certainly have NEVER commited a serious crime and definitely did not lie on my security application.
How can I pass?
The questions I have left are...
1) Is your name John Doe?
2) Do you live at 123 Maple St?
3) Have you ever been involved in serious crime?
4) Have you ever been involved with drugs?
5) Were you truthful on your security application?
Apparently i show reactions on questions #3 (serious crime) and and #5 (lying on my security app). I dont understand it!!! Where would i employ countermeasures to get a passing result? I'm not even sure if i'll go through with it, but i'm curious if i can help my cause . I know I am worthy of a clearance.
Incidently, I tell my friends and family that i cant pass the serious crime questions....and we all have a good laugh.
Oh well....the NSA is getting ready to lose a good person. Their loss.
Thanks for any help!
Posted by Skeptic
- Jan 26, 2003, 04:45 PMQuote from: George W. Maschke on Jan 26, 2003, 03:28 PM
Vato,
You write:
You might also consider just how badly you want to work for an employer that judges your honesty and integrity based on such arbitrary and capricious means as polygraphy. Is such an employer worthy or your trust?
Additionally, one can expect to go through the same process every five years or less. It may be the case, though, that NSA is less harsh with existing employees than with new recruits.
Skeptic
Posted by George W. Maschke
- Jan 26, 2003, 03:28 PMVato,
You write:
You might also consider just how badly you want to work for an employer that judges your honesty and integrity based on such arbitrary and capricious means as polygraphy. Is such an employer worthy of your trust?
You write:
QuoteIt know that it is very frustrating, but hang in there.
You might also consider just how badly you want to work for an employer that judges your honesty and integrity based on such arbitrary and capricious means as polygraphy. Is such an employer worthy of your trust?
Posted by Skeptic
- Jan 26, 2003, 03:00 PMQuote from: beech trees on Jan 26, 2003, 12:41 PM
Of course he may in fact be producing physiological reactions that polygraphers interpret as 'truthful'-- and they are simply lying about the results in an effort to get him to make damaging admissions or at least see how he reacts to such [erroneous] accusations.
Beech,
You're absolutely correct, and I forgot to mention it.
The whole thing is about bluff, anyway (right down to the "there are only two reasons someone will fail a polygraph: Deception and Uncertainty!" assertion).
Skeptic
Posted by Vato
- Jan 26, 2003, 02:44 PMAlthough I didn't write the original post, it mirrors almost exactly my experience so far with the NSA poly. The more people that I talk to, the more common it seems. I know plently of people that have had to go back multiple times. I would venture to guess that multiple "failures" are more the norm than not. My theory is that since Sep. 11, the window that they use for no-deception-indicated results is much narrower. They might also be doing the multiple repeats as a way of weeding out the less motivated individuals.
I would advise AGAINST using countermeasures at this point. If they see a marked difference in your charts as compared to your previous ones, it might raise suspicions.
It know that it is very frustrating, but hang in there.
I would advise AGAINST using countermeasures at this point. If they see a marked difference in your charts as compared to your previous ones, it might raise suspicions.
It know that it is very frustrating, but hang in there.
Posted by beech trees
- Jan 26, 2003, 12:41 PMQuote from: Skeptic on Jan 26, 2003, 03:33 AMPlease don't wrack your brains for a reason why you're "failing" the polygraph. The trick is there isn't one. It's a fake, no matter what they say, and your "reactions" are due to being asked nerve-wracking questions, not due to dishonesty or guilt feelings.
Of course he may in fact be producing physiological reactions that polygraphers interpret as 'truthful'-- and they are simply lying about the results in an effort to get him to make damaging admissions or at least see how he reacts to such [erroneous] accusations.
Posted by Skeptic
- Jan 26, 2003, 03:33 AMQuote from: integrity02 on Jan 25, 2003, 06:52 PM
Well folks, I'm about to give up on trying to get a clearance with the NSA (and consequently lose my job). I'm frustrated as heck because I know i'm worthy. The worst I've ever done was some minor shoplifting as a kid and recreational drug use in college. I've admitted to ALL of my wrongdoings, but i still seem to get reactions to a couple of questions. I feel helpless and frustrated, and am living proof that this polygraph testing is a complete joke. I can't stand the fact that i'm being 100% truthful and the polygrapher sits across from me and says "there's obviously something youre not telling me." In fact, i cut my last polygraph off early because he said i needed "to get something off my chest". I said "no i dont and that it was pointless to continue because I have nothing left to admit to". Regardless, I'm very disappointed to date, and very discouraged about my abilty to pass...even though I'm as honest, loyal, moral, and patriotic as they come.
One thing about me that certainly doesnt help is that I do consider myself a rather nervous/anxious person and I definitely do have a guilty conscious. I'm sure this works against me....but I certainly have NEVER commited a serious crime and definitely did not lie on my security application.
How can I pass?
The questions I have left are...
1) Is your name John Doe?
2) Do you live at 123 Maple St?
3) Have you ever been involved in serious crime?
4) Have you ever been involved with drugs?
5) Were you truthful on your security application?
Apparently i show reactions on questions #3 (serious crime) and and #5 (lying on my security app). I dont understand it!!! Where would i employ countermeasures to get a passing result? I'm not even sure if i'll go through with it, but i'm curious if i can help my cause . I know I am worthy of a clearance.
Incidently, I tell my friends and family that i cant pass the serious crime questions....and we all have a good laugh.
Oh well....the NSA is getting ready to lose a good person. Their loss.
Thanks for any help!
Integrity,
The more I see these accounts of NSA experiences, the more I realize how common my own experience was -- basically identical to your own, right down to the three polygraphs and the question section they kept on me about. It's almost weird.
The one thing I can tell you is that they mainly approach the polygraph as a tool to encourage confessions. If they haven't turned up something substantial yet, it could be that they really want you but just can't believe you haven't done something more serious.
It's a pricey game they play, though -- they lose good people this way. Sooner or later, I expect they'll figure that out.
I encourage you to read some of the other accounts and information/opinions (including my own) regarding the NSA polygraph process here. The most important thing to remember is that it has absolutely no bearing on you as a person, either in terms of truthfulness and worthiness, or in terms of whether there's "something wrong with you".
Please don't wrack your brains for a reason why you're "failing" the polygraph. The trick is there isn't one. It's a fake, no matter what they say, and your "reactions" are due to being asked nerve-wracking questions, not due to dishonesty or guilt feelings.
The only way you can "pass" this "test" is by maintaining your innocence despite the inevitable three-hour interrogation and breakdown "test".
Skeptic
Posted by triple x
- Jan 25, 2003, 08:24 PMHey George,
Understood; correction duly noted, my bad indeed.
Thanks,
x
Understood; correction duly noted, my bad indeed.
Thanks,
x
Posted by George W. Maschke
- Jan 25, 2003, 08:04 PMx,
Actually, the questions listed by integrity02 do not include any probable-lie "control" questions. The first two are irrelevant questions, and the last three are relevant.
A standard ploy used by NSA polygraphers is to falsely tell applicants that the question about their name is a very important one, because people have attempted to infiltrate the NSA using fake names in the past. Thus, it is conceivable that in practice, NSA is using this irrelevant question as a kind of "hidden control" question. But I have found no documentation that such is the case.
Actually, the questions listed by integrity02 do not include any probable-lie "control" questions. The first two are irrelevant questions, and the last three are relevant.
A standard ploy used by NSA polygraphers is to falsely tell applicants that the question about their name is a very important one, because people have attempted to infiltrate the NSA using fake names in the past. Thus, it is conceivable that in practice, NSA is using this irrelevant question as a kind of "hidden control" question. But I have found no documentation that such is the case.
Posted by George W. Maschke
- Jan 25, 2003, 07:59 PMThe NSA uses what is known as the "relevant/irrlevant" (R/I)technique. You'll find it described in Chapter 3 of The Lie Behind the Lie Detector. You'll find detailed information about countermeasures (including some specific ones for the R/I technique) in Chapter 4.
Based on accounts sent to AntiPolygraph.org, it appears that it is not uncommon for NSA applicants to be subjected to as many as three pre-employment polygraph interrogations. False accusations of deception, such as you've encountered, are apparently not uncommon, and you might get through the process simply by providing your polygrapher with nothing that can be twisted into a damaging admission.
See also the public statements of two recent NSA applicants, Nate B. and "Frustrated" regarding their respective polygraph experiences. (If you'd be interested in making a public statement of your own at some point, contact info@antipolygraph.org.)
You'll also find some discussions of the NSA polygraph program on this message board. Hit the "search" button at the top of the message board. The default search parameter is only for the past 7 days, so you may wish to change this to a higher number.
Based on accounts sent to AntiPolygraph.org, it appears that it is not uncommon for NSA applicants to be subjected to as many as three pre-employment polygraph interrogations. False accusations of deception, such as you've encountered, are apparently not uncommon, and you might get through the process simply by providing your polygrapher with nothing that can be twisted into a damaging admission.
See also the public statements of two recent NSA applicants, Nate B. and "Frustrated" regarding their respective polygraph experiences. (If you'd be interested in making a public statement of your own at some point, contact info@antipolygraph.org.)
You'll also find some discussions of the NSA polygraph program on this message board. Hit the "search" button at the top of the message board. The default search parameter is only for the past 7 days, so you may wish to change this to a higher number.
Posted by triple x
- Jan 25, 2003, 07:58 PMintegrity02
For a thorough understanding of how polygraph testing really works, you should download and read chapter(s) 3 & 4 in "TLBTLD". If you practice and learn the countermeasure techniques, and when to employ them during your polygraph test, you should have no problem passing.
The questions you were asked, as referenced in your post are basic CQT "control" questions. It is very easy to produce a NDI "passing" (No Deception Indicated) result using c/m's against a CQT polygraph testing.
Good luck.
Respectfully,
x
For a thorough understanding of how polygraph testing really works, you should download and read chapter(s) 3 & 4 in "TLBTLD". If you practice and learn the countermeasure techniques, and when to employ them during your polygraph test, you should have no problem passing.
The questions you were asked, as referenced in your post are basic CQT "control" questions. It is very easy to produce a NDI "passing" (No Deception Indicated) result using c/m's against a CQT polygraph testing.
Good luck.
Respectfully,
x
Posted by integrity02
- Jan 25, 2003, 06:52 PMWell folks, I'm about to give up on trying to get a clearance with the NSA (and consequently lose my job). I'm frustrated as heck because I know i'm worthy. The worst I've ever done was some minor shoplifting as a kid and recreational drug use in college. I've admitted to ALL of my wrongdoings, but i still seem to get reactions to a couple of questions. I feel helpless and frustrated, and am living proof that this polygraph testing is a complete joke. I can't stand the fact that i'm being 100% truthful and the polygrapher sits across from me and says "there's obviously something youre not telling me." In fact, i cut my last polygraph off early because he said i needed "to get something off my chest". I said "no i dont and that it was pointless to continue because I have nothing left to admit to". Regardless, I'm very disappointed to date, and very discouraged about my abilty to pass...even though I'm as honest, loyal, moral, and patriotic as they come.
One thing about me that certainly doesnt help is that I do consider myself a rather nervous/anxious person and I definitely do have a guilty conscious. I'm sure this works against me....but I certainly have NEVER commited a serious crime and definitely did not lie on my security application.
How can I pass?
The questions I have left are...
1) Is your name John Doe?
2) Do you live at 123 Maple St?
3) Have you ever been involved in serious crime?
4) Have you ever been involved with drugs?
5) Were you truthful on your security application?
Apparently i show reactions on questions #3 (serious crime) and and #5 (lying on my security app). I dont understand it!!! Where would i employ countermeasures to get a passing result? I'm not even sure if i'll go through with it, but i'm curious if i can help my cause . I know I am worthy of a clearance.
Incidently, I tell my friends and family that i cant pass the serious crime questions....and we all have a good laugh.
Oh well....the NSA is getting ready to lose a good person. Their loss.
Thanks for any help!
One thing about me that certainly doesnt help is that I do consider myself a rather nervous/anxious person and I definitely do have a guilty conscious. I'm sure this works against me....but I certainly have NEVER commited a serious crime and definitely did not lie on my security application.
How can I pass?
The questions I have left are...
1) Is your name John Doe?
2) Do you live at 123 Maple St?
3) Have you ever been involved in serious crime?
4) Have you ever been involved with drugs?
5) Were you truthful on your security application?
Apparently i show reactions on questions #3 (serious crime) and and #5 (lying on my security app). I dont understand it!!! Where would i employ countermeasures to get a passing result? I'm not even sure if i'll go through with it, but i'm curious if i can help my cause . I know I am worthy of a clearance.
Incidently, I tell my friends and family that i cant pass the serious crime questions....and we all have a good laugh.
Oh well....the NSA is getting ready to lose a good person. Their loss.
Thanks for any help!