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Topic summary

Posted by Guest_65
 - Jan 19, 2003, 08:31 AM
Just so you people who read my last post think i'm being a little hard on this person, This is what the person wrote.
QuoteIn the past I have smoked A LOT of marijuana, I stopped over 3 years ago, and I know what I did was a waste of time and money. Even though things like that made me the person I am today, it does not reflect who I am.
You Dumb ASS! First of all, That is a contradiction! If it made you the person your are today, Then it exactly represents or reflects the person or as you said "who you are" today!
Posted by guest_65
 - Jan 19, 2003, 08:10 AM
QuoteHow is not hurting anyone by smoking marijuana sheer luck? Did I say where I have smoked it? Did I say what I was doing while I smoked it?

I never said I came here for sympathy or a pat on the back, I was just acknowledging the site and it's members for helping me pass.

Tell me, how am I personally making anything harder on anyone? I did not change the dynamics of all polygraphs with my situation. Nor am I affecting anybody's individual test.

But thanks for the kind words anyway, especially the punch in the face part, scary.  

So I guess we can expect when you have to take a polygraph, on the question they ask about "researching the poly", you're going to say yes to it? If you do, come back and post the results.  
Well let's see, Maybe we should lite up, go for a drive and talk about it... But i'm sure since you didn't tell us where you smoked it, I will assume you told your Mother you where just burning incense. And I don't think anyone has to think very hard to figure out what you where doing while you were  doing it , you were getting high!
Next, Your comment about being a past "POT HEAD" But now  you're straight was begging for a huge pat on the back! And then, The one about passing your test? Geez man, Here's your pat!!!! "I always congradulate a cheater".(yeah right)
 About making things harder on people? It's just like the guy who keys his own car to get the insurance to pay for a new paint job. It makes my rates go up! And So, Future tests rely on Past Statistics to be accurate! That's how it hurts everyone else. That should be easy for an upstanding person like yourself to understand. About taking the test and answering the Question about researching the polygraph, I would still tell the truth, If i decided to take the test to begin with!  And when you say "WE" I'm assuming you have a pothead helping you write your response to my post. Don't assume everyone is backing you up in your reply!
And about the Punch in the face. Scary Huh? GOOD! Think about it!
Posted by Fair Chance
 - Jan 18, 2003, 03:04 AM
Gentlemen,

I have been through three FBI polygraph test: one inconclusive, one "countermeasures" accused, and one non-deceptive.  I am the same person I was before the first test.  The "test" in my mind is now completely irrelevent in forming any opinions of other persons.  I know it to be no better than a "crapshoot".  

Take the  polygraph test out of the above experiences.  An applicant should be able to answer all questions on the application in a truthful matter.  This has been my philosophy and will always continue to be my philosophy.

This website was not created to hide anyone's shortcomings.  This website was created to give information  about the severe shortcomings of the polygraph method of determining "truth."

If the polygraph was gone tomorrow, how would you handle your application?

This is the way you should proceed in life.

Regards.
Posted by Anony... Original poster
 - Jan 17, 2003, 06:48 PM

Quote from: guest65 on Jan 16, 2003, 01:18 AM
I see the responses from this thread. And these are my thoughts.
First, Let's look at the story. WE take a person that had some problems with drugs in the past! Whether 3 yrs ago or not and whether it was Marijuana or cigarettes is not the issue. AND MARIJUANA IS A DRUG! And never hurting anyone but yourself is not commendable but shear LUCK!

And whether the issue of this person turning their life around is irrelevent and Commendable, But, The Bottom line is this person was deceiving and lied to get their way. And was grateful for learning to deceive!("Yeah, this is the person I want to be pulled over by"!)

And I'm assuming that person is looking for a future LE position...  I am new on this site, and was looking for the truth about Lie Detectors. Not looking for a way to lie to pass one. I feel that telling the truth in all situations is more
important and more commendable and satisfying to myself and everyone around me than being able to say " Hey, I passed the test". And if the test comes back negative against me. So be it. It will work out in the end.
So now that everyone has ragged you for the "pot smoking" I just want to say this, Congratulations on being free of drugs. It does make you a better person. But now you have become a liar! which can hurt just as many people! SO, if you come here for sympathy or a pat on the back. Maybe you should seek counseling. Im glad you cleared your conscience about the drugs and feel better about yourself, But now, maybe you should be PUNCHED in the face for making things harder on the people in this world that tell the truth and have it backfire on them because of people like you!

How is not hurting anyone by smoking marijuana sheer luck? Did I say where I have smoked it? Did I say what I was doing while I smoked it?

I never said I came here for sympathy or a pat on the back, I was just acknowledging the site and it's members for helping me pass.

Tell me, how am I personally making anything harder on anyone? I did not change the dynamics of all polygraphs with my situation. Nor am I affecting anybody's individual test.

But thanks for the kind words anyway, especially the punch in the face part, scary.  ::)

So I guess we can expect when you have to take a polygraph, on the question they ask about "researching the poly", you're going to say yes to it? If you do, come back and post the results.  ;)
Posted by guest65
 - Jan 16, 2003, 01:18 AM
I see the responses from this thread. And these are my thoughts.
First, Let's look at the story. WE take a person that had some problems with drugs in the past! Whether 3 yrs ago or not and whether it was Marijuana or cigarettes is not the issue. AND MARIJUANA IS A DRUG! And never hurting anyone but yourself is not commendable but shear LUCK! And whether the issue of this person turning their life around is irrelevent and Commendable, But, The Bottom line is this person was deceiving and lied to get their way. And was grateful for learning to deceive!("Yeah, this is the person I want to be pulled over by"!) And I'm assuming that person is looking for a future LE position...  I am new on this site, and was looking for the truth about Lie Detectors. Not looking for a way to lie to pass one. I feel that telling the truth in all situations is more
important and more commendable and satisfying to myself and everyone around me than being able to say " Hey, I passed the test". And if the test comes back negative against me. So be it. It will work out in the end.
So now that everyone has ragged you for the "pot smoking" I just want to say this, Congratulations on being free of drugs. It does make you a better person. But now you have become a liar! which can hurt just as many people! SO, if you come here for sympathy or a pat on the back. Maybe you should seek counseling. Im glad you cleared your conscience about the drugs and feel better about yourself, But now, maybe you should be PUNCHED in the face for making things harder on the people in this world that tell the truth and have it backfire on them because of people like you!
Posted by SecondChancePoly
 - Jan 14, 2003, 02:50 PM
Chris wrote:
"So, SecondChance, sorry for the apparent double talk.  Just remember that alot can happen in a month."

Chris, I understand... Good luck with your future endeavors.
Posted by steincj
 - Jan 13, 2003, 09:40 PM
Second Chance,

You are right -- my words are slightly confliciting.  Bottom line is, no matter waht, given the opportunity, I would jump back into that chair and try to clear my name.
Quote from: SecondChancePoly on Jan 13, 2003, 08:22 PM
On 12/18 Chris wrote:
"Maybe then will I bow down to the "I can't make a difference in this noble effoert attitude."  But I can't see how you could possibly pass up the opportunity to get back in the chair.  As far as the second poly goes, well, I hate to see your defeatist attitude regarding it.  Just because everyone says that you're doomed to fail a second chair ride means you will."
I think I said it best -- just beacause everyone says I will fail, doesn't mean I will.  I want a chance to prove everyone wrong, but if the FBI wants to continue their charade of labeling me a spy, I'd like to see how they will try to do it.
Quote
On 01/13 Chris wrote:
"I think we all know I am doomed to fail an FBI second polygraph.  Apart from my hopes of passing the test, I am also curious to see how the FBI will try to fail me agin, whether it be the same espionage, drugs, or countermeausres." 
I'm sorry for my wording.  My refernce in saying this was Geoge's comments regarding the probablility that the entire FBI polygraph community has read my personal statement.  My involvement in this site is almost certain death, as I found proven true through a prominent outside source.  Had I retained anonymity, I might have a chance.

If the FBI believes in its motto of "fidelity, bravery, and integrity," they should applaud my efforts in using my real name and freely speaking my mind regarding my morals and potential use of countermeasures, especially since countermeasure is a large part of how this site informs citizens about the polygraph.

But why should I put my trust in the FBI to treat me fairly? Since 3 Oct 2002, they have done nothing but treat me poor.

So, SecondChance, sorry for the apparent double talk.  Just remember that alot can happen in a month.

Chris
Posted by SecondChancePoly
 - Jan 13, 2003, 08:22 PM
On 12/18 Chris wrote:
"Maybe then will I bow down to the "I can't make a difference in this noble effoert attitude."  But I can't see how you could possibly pass up the opportunity to get back in the chair.  As far as the second poly goes, well, I hate to see your defeatist attitude regarding it.  Just because everyone says that you're doomed to fail a second chair ride means you will."

On 01/13 Chris wrote:
"I think we all know I am doomed to fail an FBI second polygraph.  Apart from my hopes of passing the test, I am also curious to see how the FBI will try to fail me agin, whether it be the same espionage, drugs, or countermeausres."

Chris, you may owe me an apology?  
  
Posted by stopnik
 - Jan 13, 2003, 06:43 PM
Young is synonymous with naive...sometimes. Either way, I can tell that you are a good, honorable person and the FBI is losing out on a very strong candidate. Your decision whether or not to use CM(s) is personal -- like you aptly put it, chocolate and vanilla. For the sake of federal service, though, I would much prefer someone of your integrity and caliber to use the CM(s) and get the job! But that is your choice...what loss for all of us due to that silly, silly machine.
Posted by Mark Mallah
 - Jan 13, 2003, 05:39 PM
Chris,

Here's my take on this:

I agree with Anonymous that the chances of a polygrapher being overturned on a finding of DI (deception indicated) is minimal.  Maybe...maybe...it will get changed to inconclusive, but not to NDI (no deception indicated).

You seem to assume, as I once did, that the error of their ways will be staring the FBI and their polygraph unit in the face, and logic, reason, and common sense will compel them to reform their methods.  It won't happen that way.  Only pressure from the outside will bring change.

I would not ascribe any meaning to the fact that your file has been sitting in someone's in-box for the past 2 months.  Lots of files languish in lots of in-boxes.

Good luck.
Posted by Skeptic
 - Jan 13, 2003, 04:46 PM

Quote from: steincj on Jan 13, 2003, 04:18 PM
Anonymous,

Your suggestion to me is that I refuse a second polygraph.  There is no way that will happen.  I want it, badly.  I know I did nothing wrong, and I want the opportunity to prove that.  I think the Bureau knows that -- probably the same reason my request for a second polygraph has been idle in my Local SAC's office for over 2 months (and remains idle).


George,

I think we all know I am doomed to fail an FBI second polygraph.  Apart from my hopes of passing the test, I am also curious to see how the FBI will try to fail me agin, whether it be the same espionage, drugs, or countermeausres.  
I do hope that the FBI polygraph HQ did see my statement.  I hope it makes them think how many more honest Americans' lives will be ruined by this wretched procedure.
And if the FBI knows it erred on my test, it could be more reason as to why my appeal and retest request is still sitting in someone's inbox.
Does this motto apply to FBI polygraphers as well as regular Special Agents?  There's got to be some fine print on that seal somewhere . . .

Chris,
I believe there are only two possible outcomes of your request to be tested.  The first is that they will fight tooth and nail against retesting you -- the least work for them and the least risky, as well, although you can still generate negative publicity regarding your first test.

The second is that they can try to "neutralize" your PR damage potential by retesting you and claiming you employed countermeasures.

Skeptic
Posted by steincj
 - Jan 13, 2003, 04:18 PM
Anonymous,

Your suggestion to me is that I refuse a second polygraph.  There is no way that will happen.  I want it, badly.  I know I did nothing wrong, and I want the opportunity to prove that.  I think the Bureau knows that -- probably the same reason my request for a second polygraph has been idle in my Local SAC's office for over 2 months (and remains idle).


George,

I think we all know I am doomed to fail an FBI second polygraph.  Apart from my hopes of passing the test, I am also curious to see how the FBI will try to fail me agin, whether it be the same espionage, drugs, or countermeausres.  
Quote from: George W. Maschke on Jan 11, 2003, 04:05 PM
There can be little doubt but that FBI polygraphers have read your public statement on this website. The polygraph unit at FBI HQ must realize that it made a colossal mistake by accusing you of espionage. It is to be hoped that the FBI will give you the chance to "prove your innocence" with a second polygraph "test."
I do hope that the FBI polygraph HQ did see my statement.  I hope it makes them think how many more honest Americans' lives will be ruined by this wretched procedure.
And if the FBI knows it erred on my test, it could be more reason as to why my appeal and retest request is still sitting in someone's inbox.
Quote
The FBI's actions (and omissions) in your case will be a watershed test of the FBI's "fidelity, bravery, [and] integrity" (FBI motto).
Does this motto apply to FBI polygraphers as well as regular Special Agents?  There's got to be some fine print on that seal somewhere . . .


And stopnik,

Thank you for the compliment regarding my argument.  Maybe I am young, which you might mean "naieve," in keeping my head held high.  Well, like I said, my morals and my dignity are all I have left -- I won't do anything to compromise them.  But I can understand why you feel differently in your pragmatism.  It's why they make vanilla and chocolate  . . .

Chris
Posted by stopnik
 - Jan 12, 2003, 06:15 PM
Your argument is very articulate although I do not agree with it. I would sooner flaunt ludicrous standards with countermeasures and get a job -- then get yanked around by narrow thinking instititutional leadership (not the distinction -- leadership, not sum). When I was younger, I was into the holding my head high crap. Now a days, if you want something and you know how to get it -- and there is a way to circumvent dumb rules -- that is how I would go for it. If you are going to poly for other govt. agencies, you know what needs to be done if you want to pass. Whether you do it or not is your choice.
Posted by stopnik
 - Jan 12, 2003, 06:06 PM
Ray - NYPD FDNY does not require polygraphing. Please tell me how I am wrong?
Posted by George W. Maschke
 - Jan 11, 2003, 04:05 PM
Chris,

Although I do not believe it is unethical for truthful (with regard to relevant questions) applicants to employ polygraph countermeasures to protect themselves against the risk of a false positive outcome, I think your decision to adopt the "complete honesty" approach (among the options discussed in Chapter 4 of The Lie Behind the Lie Detector) is commendable. But in pragmatic terms, in view of your public statement about your polygraph experience, it is also the only viable option to you (apart from refusing the polygraph altogether, as suggested by Anonymous).

There can be little doubt but that FBI polygraphers have read your public statement on this website. The polygraph unit at FBI HQ must realize that it made a colossal mistake by accusing you of espionage. It is to be hoped that the FBI will give you the chance to "prove your innocence" with a second polygraph "test."

But in view of your adoption of the "complete honesty" approach, the ones who will actually be tested in any second polygraph examination will be the FBI polygraphers themselves. Will they administer you their fraudulent probable-lie "control" question "test," even after you admit (when asked what you know about polygraphy) that you understand "the lie behind the lie detector?"

Or will they fall back to a relevant/irrelevant "test," a procedure that is thoroughly discredited, even in the polygraph community itself, and completely unsupported by any peer-reviewed research whatsoever? Will they lie to you and tell you that it's a highly reliable technique? What will they do when you explain that you know that the relevant/irrelevant technique is also a fraud?

The FBI's actions (and omissions) in your case will be a watershed test of the FBI's "fidelity, bravery, [and] integrity" (FBI motto).