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Posted by SecondChancePoly
- Jan 24, 2003, 04:44 PMFair Chance,
It might take six months, but I got my FBI FOIA just under three months after my request.
It might take six months, but I got my FBI FOIA just under three months after my request.
Posted by orolan
- Jan 24, 2003, 12:07 AMI downloaded it and read it. I did this after taking two tests, and there won't be any more (hopefully). But my experience with the two I took, combined with the knowledge learned since then, have caused me to do what I can to relegate polygraphs to the circus sideshow where they belong.
Posted by Fair Chance
- Nov 25, 2002, 10:30 AMQuote from: Fred F. on Nov 25, 2002, 01:29 AMDear Fred F.,
Fair Chance,
I commend you for your faithful service to our country. It amazes me that the FBI has given you multiple exams when most of the people who failed an FBI poly seem to have trouble getting retested. Could the FBI be attempting to destroy your career?
You have made a great point in your last paragraph. Remember those who passed the poly and then betrayed our country
Good Luck
Fred F.
I only wish I was that important in life. To the FBI, I am just one of thousands of applicants. I do not beleive that the FBI wants to specifically destroy my career. I do now think that the polygraph examiners would like me to go away so that the procedure does not get any more scrutiny. The notification letter stating that my application was not going to get any more consideration had absolutely no information on how an applicant might appeal their situation. As an experienced federal worker, I understand that ALL procedures have to have some type of process to handle disputes. Why make it so difficult to find on what information a decision was made unless the decision was not founded on logical thinking?
In order to destroy my career, the FBI would have to undo my life. I want the FBI to perform the most intensive background investigation possible (assuming that they want do destroy my career, they would spare no time or expense looking under all the rocks). I will pass with flying colors.
My disgust with the current applicant system stems from the fact that there is no background investigation BEFORE the polygraph and NONE is fourthcoming if the polygraph results accuse an applicant of improprieties. THERE IS NO WAY TO CLEAR ONE'S REPUTATION FROM ACCUSATIONS MADE STRICTLY ON THE INTERPRETATIONS OF A GROUP OF HIDDEN SECRET POLYGRAPH INTERPRETERS IN WASHINGTON, D.C..
Fred, I believe the more light that is shined under my rock, the better I will look. Why must these polygraph interpreters in Washington, D.C., operate in the shadows of secrecy? When everything is complete, I will do a Freedom of Information Reguest on my file and I know I will not see any information under six months.
Forgive my long winded answer, every time I think about the situation it becomes more absurd. Many men and women have been killed or maimed in service to our country. My problem is quite trival compared to their experiences. I now fight to try and improve the system, I am not a radical or rebel. My father stated a saying that I have always lived by,"Evil will triumph when good men stand by and do nothing about it." I do think the polygraph is having a negative effect on recruiting the best for America and now more then ever, we need the best in law enforcement.
Posted by Fred F.
- Nov 25, 2002, 01:29 AMQuote from: Fair Chance on Nov 24, 2002, 03:22 AM
My current agency does not give any credence to the polygraph and thus the FBI cannot silence me by threatening to "tell my current federal employer" and cast a shadow on my reputation.
I would never be on this website if the polygraph was as accurate as claimed. Many polygraph advocates have stated that the polygraph is an "art" and the polygraph operator's expertise is the key.
I have only seen "fingerpainters" operating the polygraph so far and I would definitely like to see a "craftsman artist" paint a picture of my "truthfulness".
Please do not sell anyone posting here as being short on honor and integrity just because they question the validity of the polygraph.
Regards.
Fair Chance,
I commend you for your faithful service to our country. It amazes me that the FBI has given you multiple exams when most of the people who failed an FBI poly seem to have trouble getting retested. Could the FBI be attempting to destroy your career?
You have made a great point in your last paragraph. Remember those who passed the poly and then betrayed our country
Good Luck
Fred F.
Posted by mriddle6
- Nov 24, 2002, 06:08 AMQuote from: polylawman on Nov 23, 2002, 09:44 PM
I usually don't polygraph zealots such as the malcontents on this site who have studied for years on how to beat the poly.
The malcontents on this site are people. Must of them seem to be dedicated folks that have been denied employment with law enforcement solely on the basis of a polygraph. Does this not seem wrong to you?
As for " Beating the Polygraph" this may be your perspective. The way I see it, for whatever my humble opinion is worth, they come only seeking knowledge on how to better protect themselfs from being victimized from the likes of you.
Posted by Fair Chance
- Nov 24, 2002, 03:22 AMQuote from: polylawman on Nov 23, 2002, 09:44 PMDear Polylawman,
It's kind of interesting that most of people that post on this site will never even have to take ANOTHER polygraph.
I find your quote rather interesting. I have taken two polygraphs and a third is on the way. The first inconclusive, the second accusatory, and the third, we will find out. I find it amazing that the Attorney General of the United States found my work for the Department of Justice exemplary: nine special acts in a ten year period, four promotions, and employee of the month. The Department of Defense has awarded me multiple medals, promotions and awards for my service to the military. My life has been investigated by the Military from age 18 and the Department of Justice has reinvestigated my life from 21 on. I was extemely high on the FBI best qualified list. All of my interviews went exceptionally well with the hiring authority. The only people to take exception to my character are polygraph examiners. When I call them on the carpet, wonderously, I get another polygraph. I have been trustworthy to the United States Government for over the past twenty years of my life yet because of the polygraph, I am not acceptable to the FBI.
The FBI does not want to fail me any more because the Attorney General will have to investigate any allegations of their conclusions. The polygraph states that I am questionable yet my lifetime of service says otherwise. The more I fail the polygraph, the worse it will appear for its validity. I am currently employed in a Federal Law Enforcement position of extreme responsibility. My current agency does not give any credence to the polygraph and thus the FBI cannot silence me by threatening to "tell my current federal employer" and cast a shadow on my reputation.
I would never be on this website if the polygraph was as accurate as claimed. Many polygraph advocates have stated that the polygraph is an "art" and the polygraph operator's expertise is the key.
I have only seen "fingerpainters" operating the polygraph so far and I would definitely like to see a "craftsman artist" paint a picture of my "truthfulness".
Please do not sell anyone posting here as being short on honor and integrity just because they question the validity of the polygraph.
Regards.
Posted by polylawman
- Nov 23, 2002, 09:44 PMKind of interesting that your children should even know about the polygraph. How are they being raised??? As for the polygraph. I usually don't polygraph zealots such as the malcontents on this site who have studied for years on how to beat the poly. I do criminal polygraphs. It's kind of interesting that most of people that post on this site will never even have to take ANOTHER polygraph. They have already failed and have an axe to grind. Don't they george.
Posted by Seeker
- Nov 23, 2002, 09:21 PMPolylawman:
The countermeasure are difficult to do? For who? My children can do them effectively!
I do think intelligent people can do them with little effort, in my opinion. But then. you know, polygraph examiners are more accustomed to examanees who are naive and who accept the absurdity of the validity of the polygraph to detect deception.
In the words of Bob Park, of the American Physical Society, "The polygraph is... a highly reliable detector of orgasims. But does it detect lies? Only if you're lying about having an orgasm."
I am even willing to bet it can't detect even that with anyone slightly informed about the asinine polygraph.
Don't take Drew's challenge, take mine - I bet I can not only beat it, but can give you exactly the chart you want me to produce in ANY situation...I can make those needles dance to MY control.
The countermeasure are difficult to do? For who? My children can do them effectively!
I do think intelligent people can do them with little effort, in my opinion. But then. you know, polygraph examiners are more accustomed to examanees who are naive and who accept the absurdity of the validity of the polygraph to detect deception.
In the words of Bob Park, of the American Physical Society, "The polygraph is... a highly reliable detector of orgasims. But does it detect lies? Only if you're lying about having an orgasm."
I am even willing to bet it can't detect even that with anyone slightly informed about the asinine polygraph.
Don't take Drew's challenge, take mine - I bet I can not only beat it, but can give you exactly the chart you want me to produce in ANY situation...I can make those needles dance to MY control.
Posted by Polylawman
- Nov 22, 2002, 09:34 PMWay to go Public Servant.
Did you ever try the methods discussed in the book? I have and they are difficult to do and I give exams.
Good luck to all those who try.
Did you ever try the methods discussed in the book? I have and they are difficult to do and I give exams.
Good luck to all those who try.
Posted by Public Servant
- Nov 22, 2002, 06:35 AMI've downloaded it at least 2-3 times. And add that to the 2,200 because I am not a member of the APA but I am an examiner. There's probably a heck of a lot more like me, but then every examiner might not have downloaded the file. Safe to say a lot of people who are not examiners, have read TLBTLD. And yet I still get plenty of (consensual) business.
It may not be detecting deception, but I sure have been successful (at a rate MUCH greater than chance) at identifying the perpetrators of felonies, and eliminating the innocent from suspicion!!
Cheers.
It may not be detecting deception, but I sure have been successful (at a rate MUCH greater than chance) at identifying the perpetrators of felonies, and eliminating the innocent from suspicion!!
Cheers.
Posted by beech trees
- Nov 21, 2002, 10:46 AMDid you read it, polylawman?
Posted by George W. Maschke
- Nov 21, 2002, 05:11 AMQuote from: polylawman on Nov 20, 2002, 07:44 PM
How many of those are examiners , and how many actually read it
Polylawman,
Just as polygraphers cannot detect deception, AntiPolygraph.org's server logs cannot detect polygraphers.
Posted by Marty
- Nov 21, 2002, 02:48 AMI have downloaded it more than once because my computer had crashed and the HD had to be reformated. It wasn't one of my backed up files since it is readily available. OTOH, some would share it with others (as suggested) so that would work in the opposite direction.
All in all, it is well written and is probably one of the texts anyone interested in the polygraph should read.
-Marty
All in all, it is well written and is probably one of the texts anyone interested in the polygraph should read.
-Marty
Posted by G Scalabr
- Nov 20, 2002, 08:17 PMQuoteHow many of those are examiners , and how many actually read it
Polylawman,
If we assume that every examiner who is a member of the American Polygraph Association downloaded a copy, it would still put us at 47, 800 downloads (the APA website boasts "over 2,200 members").
There is no way to guess what percentage of those who download the book actually read it. Common sense would dictate that individuals who intentionally download a fairly large file are likely to read at least some of it. Furthermore, judging by the number of "thank you" e-mails we have received from those who have successfully employed countermeasures, I would assume that the percentage is fairly high.
Lastly, your post neglects to account for those who read the book, found it useful, and passed it on to others (either via e-mail or printed copy). Once again, there is no way to put an exact number on this. I would venture to guess that it is as large as or larger than the 2,200 number we can attribute to polygraph examiners.
Posted by polylawman
- Nov 20, 2002, 07:44 PMHow many of those are examiners , and how many actually read it