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A forum for free and open discussion of polygraph-related topics
Posted by Seeker
- Oct 21, 2002, 08:18 AM
That was exactly what I was looking for. I was hoping to coordinate their recruiting efforts with a symposium on polygraph. We students are the policy makers of the future, and as suggested by Dr. Richardson, this issue is a definate point which I will revisit once I complete my eduacational pursuits.
Posted by George W. Maschke
- Oct 21, 2002, 07:48 AMSeeker,
I do indeed wish you all success in making the truth about polygraphy known on your campus. One especially good opportunity would be at any campus job fair where agencies that rely on polygraphy (e.g., CIA, FBI, NSA) have recruiting booths.
I do indeed wish you all success in making the truth about polygraphy known on your campus. One especially good opportunity would be at any campus job fair where agencies that rely on polygraphy (e.g., CIA, FBI, NSA) have recruiting booths.
Posted by Seeker
- Oct 21, 2002, 07:40 AMGeorge:
Knowledge is Power..or so I have been told.
I have found that educated people generally seek out more knowledge, and so I expect some reception to this information. It has also been my experience that educated people welcome an intelligent academic debate on matters with which they are not that familiar. Wish me well in my attempts to recruit such speakers and debaters.
Knowledge is Power..or so I have been told.
I have found that educated people generally seek out more knowledge, and so I expect some reception to this information. It has also been my experience that educated people welcome an intelligent academic debate on matters with which they are not that familiar. Wish me well in my attempts to recruit such speakers and debaters.
Posted by George W. Maschke
- Oct 21, 2002, 07:12 AMSeeker,
I never considered myself to be an activist before, either, and as a federal employee (Army Reserve) with a security clearance, was very reluctant to speak publicly on this issue. But the harm to innocent individuals and the national security that is resulting from governmental reliance on the pseudoscience of polygraphy compelled me (as it has numerous others) to take a public stance. Your participation in this effort is most welcome.
QuoteI have never really advocated anything, nor ever considered myself an activist, but the irrepairable harm being done is outlandish and a total abuse of power.
I never considered myself to be an activist before, either, and as a federal employee (Army Reserve) with a security clearance, was very reluctant to speak publicly on this issue. But the harm to innocent individuals and the national security that is resulting from governmental reliance on the pseudoscience of polygraphy compelled me (as it has numerous others) to take a public stance. Your participation in this effort is most welcome.
Posted by Seeker
- Oct 21, 2002, 06:56 AMGeorge and Two Block:
My printer runnith over!
I have made numerous copies of letters and the pettition form. I made my way down to KINKOS earlier to get multiple copies. I think that being a student, I am in a position to come in contact with so many people that I can do my part to help put an end to this lunacy.
I have never really advocated anything, nor ever considered myself an activist, but the irrepairable harm being done is outlandish and a total abuse of power.
I will keep you all posted as to my results.
My printer runnith over!
I have made numerous copies of letters and the pettition form. I made my way down to KINKOS earlier to get multiple copies. I think that being a student, I am in a position to come in contact with so many people that I can do my part to help put an end to this lunacy.
I have never really advocated anything, nor ever considered myself an activist, but the irrepairable harm being done is outlandish and a total abuse of power.
I will keep you all posted as to my results.
Posted by Twoblock
- Oct 20, 2002, 11:36 PMSeeker
On this site,in the reading room, there is an "open letter to all elected politicians and appointed office holders". Why don't you make as many copies as you want and give them to your friends and relatives and all of you mail them, along with your own comments, to all of your state and federal congress people. Another way to put pressure on your elected officials. I doubt that very many will read our posts here. There is not a one of them that will put their job in the hands of a polygrapher.
On this site,in the reading room, there is an "open letter to all elected politicians and appointed office holders". Why don't you make as many copies as you want and give them to your friends and relatives and all of you mail them, along with your own comments, to all of your state and federal congress people. Another way to put pressure on your elected officials. I doubt that very many will read our posts here. There is not a one of them that will put their job in the hands of a polygrapher.
Posted by George W. Maschke
- Oct 20, 2002, 08:24 PMSeeker,
It would certainly be beneficial if the petition to end polygraph screening were to be made known to as many people as possible. Feel free to make copies; if you'd like to collect signatures on paper, that's fine, too.
I think you're quite right that education is the only effective tool we have against the voodoo science of polygraphy. That's why The Lie Behind the Lie Detector was written and made available for free on this website. But you're also right that ultimately, pressure must be brought to bear on our political leaders before this nonsense is abolished. The petition is a first attempt at collective action toward that end. I encourage all to sign, and to help spread the word to others.
It would certainly be beneficial if the petition to end polygraph screening were to be made known to as many people as possible. Feel free to make copies; if you'd like to collect signatures on paper, that's fine, too.
I think you're quite right that education is the only effective tool we have against the voodoo science of polygraphy. That's why The Lie Behind the Lie Detector was written and made available for free on this website. But you're also right that ultimately, pressure must be brought to bear on our political leaders before this nonsense is abolished. The petition is a first attempt at collective action toward that end. I encourage all to sign, and to help spread the word to others.
Posted by Seeker
- Oct 20, 2002, 06:04 PMI am amazed as I sift through these posts at just what power we have delegated to our law enforcement!
This horrid treachery needs to be put out to the public each and every time possible. There HAS to be some interest in the better good of our nation and our people. One of the reasons we hold our liberties so dear is that we do not "allow" cruel and unusual practices to befall our citizens. Where are the Civil Libertarians? I was shocked to find my attorney, a Civil Rights attorney, actually suggested that I sit for a poly! Education is the only effective tool we are to have against this voodoo.
It is fine to post in here, but without actions that matter, without pressure being put on our representatives in government, our words are nothing more than lip service. I would think that it would be acceptable by Mr. Maschke if we all made copies of the petition to the President and passed them out to our local areas. This type of "inquisition" must be halted before our precious national security becomes the remorseful victim.
This horrid treachery needs to be put out to the public each and every time possible. There HAS to be some interest in the better good of our nation and our people. One of the reasons we hold our liberties so dear is that we do not "allow" cruel and unusual practices to befall our citizens. Where are the Civil Libertarians? I was shocked to find my attorney, a Civil Rights attorney, actually suggested that I sit for a poly! Education is the only effective tool we are to have against this voodoo.
It is fine to post in here, but without actions that matter, without pressure being put on our representatives in government, our words are nothing more than lip service. I would think that it would be acceptable by Mr. Maschke if we all made copies of the petition to the President and passed them out to our local areas. This type of "inquisition" must be halted before our precious national security becomes the remorseful victim.
Posted by Fred F.
- Oct 20, 2002, 01:08 AMQuote from: Douglas on Oct 18, 2002, 11:57 PM
I took a DoD polygrap test about one month ago. I was accused of looking at pornographic stuff on a work computer.
Douglas,
If you indeed were viewing "questionable" material over the internet at your job, wouldn't your employer have said something to you?
At my facility, our internet access is heavily monitored and the firewall will restrict access to "questionable" websites. If you work for a large employer they probably have the same filters on the firewalls that prevent access to those sites and you probably have your "net" time logged.
If you received it as an email from your friend and viewed it without knowing what it was, you have committed no crime. The polygrapher is attempting to extort information from you, BEWARE
Fred F.
Posted by Fair Chance
- Oct 19, 2002, 12:52 AMDouglas,
I cannot make judgements on what you did or did not do. If your story is true, then state it and do not let anyone twist or misinterpret things for you.
I am not advocating lying or covering up anything.
Please remember that a polygraph can "prove" nothing without the "fish" opening its mouth for the "bait." Without confessions, it becomes useless.
If you have done something against policy or regulation, it is always best to deal with it and not "cover" it up but do not let anyone "convince" you that a polygraph can see the truth or try to change your story strictly because the "polygraph does not agree with you."
How would you deal with this problem if the polygraph did not exist? That is the way you should approach the situation. If you are wrong, deal with it. If you are right you should not give any credence to the polygraph.
Hope things turn out properly for you.
I cannot make judgements on what you did or did not do. If your story is true, then state it and do not let anyone twist or misinterpret things for you.
I am not advocating lying or covering up anything.
Please remember that a polygraph can "prove" nothing without the "fish" opening its mouth for the "bait." Without confessions, it becomes useless.
If you have done something against policy or regulation, it is always best to deal with it and not "cover" it up but do not let anyone "convince" you that a polygraph can see the truth or try to change your story strictly because the "polygraph does not agree with you."
How would you deal with this problem if the polygraph did not exist? That is the way you should approach the situation. If you are wrong, deal with it. If you are right you should not give any credence to the polygraph.
Hope things turn out properly for you.
Posted by Douglas
- Oct 18, 2002, 11:57 PMHelpme,
I took a DoD polygrap test about one month ago. I was accused of looking at pornographic stuff on a work computer. I took the test and they said I didn't pass. After the test, I told the operator that I had received an email at work that had a questionable photo, but I received it from a friend who didn't know better and send it to me at work. I had deleted it as soon as I saw it. I told him that I never looked at such stuff on the internet at work. I was questioned about by breaths.
Doug
I took a DoD polygrap test about one month ago. I was accused of looking at pornographic stuff on a work computer. I took the test and they said I didn't pass. After the test, I told the operator that I had received an email at work that had a questionable photo, but I received it from a friend who didn't know better and send it to me at work. I had deleted it as soon as I saw it. I told him that I never looked at such stuff on the internet at work. I was questioned about by breaths.
Doug
Posted by helpme
- Oct 17, 2002, 02:34 PMI was unable to re-take the test due to schedule conflicts that I could not get out of. I informed the polygrapher, and he said he would get back to me with a date of the next time he could give me another test. I did contact an attorney, because I really dont know how to proceed form here. Not sure of the type of retest, but after coming out of the first test and then reading all that I could about the test I did recognize some of the tactics that were used on me. I wish I had looked further into it before I had taken the test. Now Im sitting wondering when the next shoe will drop.
Posted by Fair Chance
- Oct 16, 2002, 07:50 PMThis situation is so similar to the FBI's treatment of myself during my pre-screening interview. Constantly accusing the subject to "breathing patterns", physical movement during the polygraph, an offer to "clear things up" if he would only confess to using "countermeasures." I was completely unaware of any website like this during my pre-screening process and my examiner ranted and raved about how I was trying to "fool" him. I did nothing wrong, admitted to nothing wrong, and was still "not within acceptable parameters."
I was told that my job application would stop instantly if "I did not come up with a reason." How many people wanting to obtain the job of their dreams, would at this point be grasping at straws to keep the application process going. I for one was not willing.
The polygraph is completely useless without confessions. The existing arguement for polygraph use is "we get confessions that we would otherwise not get." The ends justify the means.
You were a "fish" that did not open up his mouth for the "hook." When more people learn about the fallicy of the "lie detector", it will become useless and placed on the shelf.
I am in law enforcement. I am proud about what I do. I was never aware about the "dark side of the polygraph either."
I was told that my job application would stop instantly if "I did not come up with a reason." How many people wanting to obtain the job of their dreams, would at this point be grasping at straws to keep the application process going. I for one was not willing.
The polygraph is completely useless without confessions. The existing arguement for polygraph use is "we get confessions that we would otherwise not get." The ends justify the means.
You were a "fish" that did not open up his mouth for the "hook." When more people learn about the fallicy of the "lie detector", it will become useless and placed on the shelf.
I am in law enforcement. I am proud about what I do. I was never aware about the "dark side of the polygraph either."
Posted by Marty
- Oct 16, 2002, 07:09 PMBeech Trees,
Good observation. The likely combination that the poor fellow was innocent while the polygrapher-interrogator clearly was predisposed to believe him guilty led them to the natural conclusion that he was using countermeasures when he clearly reacted more to the control question than the relevant ones.
It is becoming extremely clear that this touting of countermeasure detection is for public consumption to mitigate the impact of sites such as this.
-Marty
Good observation. The likely combination that the poor fellow was innocent while the polygrapher-interrogator clearly was predisposed to believe him guilty led them to the natural conclusion that he was using countermeasures when he clearly reacted more to the control question than the relevant ones.
It is becoming extremely clear that this touting of countermeasure detection is for public consumption to mitigate the impact of sites such as this.
-Marty
Posted by beech trees
- Oct 16, 2002, 06:37 PMIf I could ask everyone to take a moment and reflect on the importance of this thread, I think you will agree that it's interesting and highly illustrative...
Here we have a man undergoing polygraph interrogation by the DoD. Presumably the polygrapher is DoDPI trained... and yet he was so unsophisticated, so inept that he could not discern if a person was telling the truth or using countermeasures. What is really troubling is that rather than erring on the side of caution, the polygrapher accuses and sets up a course of events that can only lead to this man failing his polygraph.
Is this the vaunted 'counter-countermeasures' we hear Dr. Barland et. al. hinting at (but never discussing in an open and honest fashion?) Arbitrarily accuse 'em of using countermeasures and then sit back and see what happens?
Good to see the cream of the polygraphic crop using this highly sophisticated counter-countermeasures technique.
Here we have a man undergoing polygraph interrogation by the DoD. Presumably the polygrapher is DoDPI trained... and yet he was so unsophisticated, so inept that he could not discern if a person was telling the truth or using countermeasures. What is really troubling is that rather than erring on the side of caution, the polygrapher accuses and sets up a course of events that can only lead to this man failing his polygraph.
Is this the vaunted 'counter-countermeasures' we hear Dr. Barland et. al. hinting at (but never discussing in an open and honest fashion?) Arbitrarily accuse 'em of using countermeasures and then sit back and see what happens?
Good to see the cream of the polygraphic crop using this highly sophisticated counter-countermeasures technique.