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Posted by Joseph
- Sep 06, 2002, 07:47 PMBatman,
In response to your questions, Mary would come and knock on my door just about every day. However, for about 4-6 weeks before Mary made her allegations, I would find some excuse to get rid of her. What I should have said was that Mary had not been INSIDE my house for at least a month before she claimed I fondled her.
You are right about my attitude toward her feelings being rather mature. But, it is only now, 9 years later, that I can articulate that attitude. If you asked me the same question when I was 22, I would not be able to answer it. All I knew back then was that I had some vague concern about not hurting Mary's feelings. I could not have told you why I had that concern, as I can do today.
Finally, you asked me if I ever wanted to act on any feelings I may have had toward Mary, and if so, did I ever do anything with her that might cause a significant reaction when asked about it. This is a good question. As I have said in my previous posts, I did not find Mary sexually appealing. She was physically attracive, but I did not like her personality or her mental state. Now, there were a few times when I did discuss sex with Mary, when she would ask what kind of women I was attracted to. She would also ask what sexual things I would do to that woman, and what I would like that woman to do to me. It was almost like discussing a sexual fantasy with Mary, but Mary was not the subject of the fantasy. No, I did not ever have any sexual feelings toward Mary, nor would I have ever acted on them even if I did. It would not only be illegal, but immoral as well.
I am wondering if because I have discussed sex with Mary, that this could be something that could cause a significant reaction! I could believe this could be the case with my LAPD poly. When the examiner asked me the various questions about Mary and my relationship with her, I do remember many different thoughts and concerns running through my mind, including sexual discussions.
However, during my CVSA exam, I did not have any of these thoughs during the test. I actually kept my mind as blank as possible and just answered the questions truthfully. On one question (it was an irrelevant one, like "Is there a computer on my desk") my heart suddenly started beating like a racehorse for no reason whatsoever. I was not thinking about anything disturbing, and there was noting about the question itself that would have caused a reaction, but I reacted anyway. I am thinking that I am just one of those people who get very nervous when questioned, and this nervousness was interpeted as deception during my poly and CVSA exam.
In response to your questions, Mary would come and knock on my door just about every day. However, for about 4-6 weeks before Mary made her allegations, I would find some excuse to get rid of her. What I should have said was that Mary had not been INSIDE my house for at least a month before she claimed I fondled her.
You are right about my attitude toward her feelings being rather mature. But, it is only now, 9 years later, that I can articulate that attitude. If you asked me the same question when I was 22, I would not be able to answer it. All I knew back then was that I had some vague concern about not hurting Mary's feelings. I could not have told you why I had that concern, as I can do today.
Finally, you asked me if I ever wanted to act on any feelings I may have had toward Mary, and if so, did I ever do anything with her that might cause a significant reaction when asked about it. This is a good question. As I have said in my previous posts, I did not find Mary sexually appealing. She was physically attracive, but I did not like her personality or her mental state. Now, there were a few times when I did discuss sex with Mary, when she would ask what kind of women I was attracted to. She would also ask what sexual things I would do to that woman, and what I would like that woman to do to me. It was almost like discussing a sexual fantasy with Mary, but Mary was not the subject of the fantasy. No, I did not ever have any sexual feelings toward Mary, nor would I have ever acted on them even if I did. It would not only be illegal, but immoral as well.
I am wondering if because I have discussed sex with Mary, that this could be something that could cause a significant reaction! I could believe this could be the case with my LAPD poly. When the examiner asked me the various questions about Mary and my relationship with her, I do remember many different thoughts and concerns running through my mind, including sexual discussions.
However, during my CVSA exam, I did not have any of these thoughs during the test. I actually kept my mind as blank as possible and just answered the questions truthfully. On one question (it was an irrelevant one, like "Is there a computer on my desk") my heart suddenly started beating like a racehorse for no reason whatsoever. I was not thinking about anything disturbing, and there was noting about the question itself that would have caused a reaction, but I reacted anyway. I am thinking that I am just one of those people who get very nervous when questioned, and this nervousness was interpeted as deception during my poly and CVSA exam.
Posted by jet-journalist
- Sep 06, 2002, 07:01 PMsorry batman, read my post in personal statement, most recent posts. And back, to your last in this thread. I am explaining that the government relies so much on the polygraph to DQ people from employment but when it back fires they claim its only a tool that doesnt work that well. so my point is that the polygraph and you DOESNT WORK. Will write more when i am not so limited on time.
Posted by Passedbutfailed
- Sep 06, 2002, 12:23 AMAnonymous Wrote:
"...perhaps your friends on the dark side will promote you to the "A" team and day shift with this effort....
"
That was a dumb move Anonymous (although your professional experience is no longer anonymous) to expose yourself in that fashion. Better luck next time.
"...perhaps your friends on the dark side will promote you to the "A" team and day shift with this effort....
"That was a dumb move Anonymous (although your professional experience is no longer anonymous) to expose yourself in that fashion. Better luck next time.
Posted by Anonymous
- Sep 05, 2002, 06:55 PMBatman,
You are to be congratulated on a considerably more cogent and rationale analysis than that which you began with. It should be pointed out though, that your outstanding questions left for Joseph, in no way leave him implicated nor in any way excuse the rather rash analysis and the accusatory nature of your initial posts. But again, a vast improvement on your part...perhaps your friends on the dark side will promote you to the "A" team and day shift with this effort....
You are to be congratulated on a considerably more cogent and rationale analysis than that which you began with. It should be pointed out though, that your outstanding questions left for Joseph, in no way leave him implicated nor in any way excuse the rather rash analysis and the accusatory nature of your initial posts. But again, a vast improvement on your part...perhaps your friends on the dark side will promote you to the "A" team and day shift with this effort....
Posted by Batman (Guest)
- Sep 05, 2002, 06:34 PMJoseph,
As promised, here is what I make of your situation, given that I only have your side of the story. You mention that Mary came to your house on almost a daily basis, yet when talking about the day of the alleged assault you state she hadn't been to your house in at least a month. However, given this you still felt compelled to state that you found her visitis annoying and uncomfortable and you were finding more and more excuses to not invite her in when she came knocking. Not real clear on this, especially if she hadn't been over to your house in over a month. You mention that you "do" have a moral compass, but what you have now is not really at issue. What about 1993, when you were 22 years old? You mention that you were able to recognize all of Mary's problems and that you empathised with her due to your own high school experiences. This sounds like a rather mature attitude for a 22 year old who was young and naive enough to falsely confess. You mention that you thought Mary was pretty, however you were not sexually attracted to her, that she was not your "type". By your description she was a pretty girl, who was obviously attracted to you, and you were an immature 22 year old who did not appear to have many, if any, serious relationships. Your "evidence" relating to Mary's having lied about being at your house that day is compelling. It certainly does not bode well for her that she stated she told your neighbor and he beat you up, when if fact (as related by you) this did not occur and your neighbor verified same. So where does that take us? One might say it's possible you really wanted to act on some feelings for Mary, however there is a strong indication you were actually turned off by her, and one would have to believe these thoughts would not impact any type of physiological testing nine years later. Is it possible there is some bit of information about yourself that you are not providing since you do not see it as being relevant to the allegation made by Mary; yet whenever the topic of Mary and her allegation is brought up this bit of information comes to the forefront? If so, do you believe that this bit of information, if known, would prevent you from obtaining a career in law enforcement? These are personal questions, and you owe me no answer to them!
For Passedbutfailed (Rick),
You got me buddy! I'll see you at the next JTTF meeting. Since you know me I guess we won't need any introduction, but will you do me two favors before we meet? One, wear a red tie so I'll know who you are, and two, please tell me what the JTTF is, and when and where the next meeting is. I don't want to miss it if I'm suppose to be there. Also, SFFO/SSG & LAFO/HRT? OK, color me stupid, it wouldn't be the first time, but what do these stand for? Please tell me so I can pass on your greetings to the "boys", and also so I can contact someone about why I haven't been receiving my paychecks.
If we were playing "Hot/Cold" I'd say you must be wearing some serious cold weather gear right about now. Try again.
Batman
As promised, here is what I make of your situation, given that I only have your side of the story. You mention that Mary came to your house on almost a daily basis, yet when talking about the day of the alleged assault you state she hadn't been to your house in at least a month. However, given this you still felt compelled to state that you found her visitis annoying and uncomfortable and you were finding more and more excuses to not invite her in when she came knocking. Not real clear on this, especially if she hadn't been over to your house in over a month. You mention that you "do" have a moral compass, but what you have now is not really at issue. What about 1993, when you were 22 years old? You mention that you were able to recognize all of Mary's problems and that you empathised with her due to your own high school experiences. This sounds like a rather mature attitude for a 22 year old who was young and naive enough to falsely confess. You mention that you thought Mary was pretty, however you were not sexually attracted to her, that she was not your "type". By your description she was a pretty girl, who was obviously attracted to you, and you were an immature 22 year old who did not appear to have many, if any, serious relationships. Your "evidence" relating to Mary's having lied about being at your house that day is compelling. It certainly does not bode well for her that she stated she told your neighbor and he beat you up, when if fact (as related by you) this did not occur and your neighbor verified same. So where does that take us? One might say it's possible you really wanted to act on some feelings for Mary, however there is a strong indication you were actually turned off by her, and one would have to believe these thoughts would not impact any type of physiological testing nine years later. Is it possible there is some bit of information about yourself that you are not providing since you do not see it as being relevant to the allegation made by Mary; yet whenever the topic of Mary and her allegation is brought up this bit of information comes to the forefront? If so, do you believe that this bit of information, if known, would prevent you from obtaining a career in law enforcement? These are personal questions, and you owe me no answer to them!
For Passedbutfailed (Rick),
You got me buddy! I'll see you at the next JTTF meeting. Since you know me I guess we won't need any introduction, but will you do me two favors before we meet? One, wear a red tie so I'll know who you are, and two, please tell me what the JTTF is, and when and where the next meeting is. I don't want to miss it if I'm suppose to be there. Also, SFFO/SSG & LAFO/HRT? OK, color me stupid, it wouldn't be the first time, but what do these stand for? Please tell me so I can pass on your greetings to the "boys", and also so I can contact someone about why I haven't been receiving my paychecks.
If we were playing "Hot/Cold" I'd say you must be wearing some serious cold weather gear right about now. Try again.
Batman
Posted by Passedbutfailed
- Sep 05, 2002, 01:55 AMI'm sorry Batman. I apologize for my psychological analysis of your person. I had no idea. See, I work in federal law enforcement, like you do, but the difference is that I am one person, whereas you constitute an entire office. Probably Bureau, maybe a NSC offshoot.
Conducting criminal investigations is very time consuming, so I have little time to participate in chat rooms like Antipolygraph.com. I only read the 'sexual molestation/Joseph-Mary' thread and responded to that, but as I currently enjoy my cakewalk TDY, I researched other messages that you have submitted to this board. All I can say is that your cover is blown. Back to the drawing-board, ladies and gentlemen.
Tell the boys in SFFO/SSG and LAFO/HRT that I said "Hello."
I'll see you at the next JTTF meeting. Take care, Rick.
Conducting criminal investigations is very time consuming, so I have little time to participate in chat rooms like Antipolygraph.com. I only read the 'sexual molestation/Joseph-Mary' thread and responded to that, but as I currently enjoy my cakewalk TDY, I researched other messages that you have submitted to this board. All I can say is that your cover is blown. Back to the drawing-board, ladies and gentlemen.
Tell the boys in SFFO/SSG and LAFO/HRT that I said "Hello."
I'll see you at the next JTTF meeting. Take care, Rick.
Posted by Passedbutfailed
- Sep 04, 2002, 10:04 PMBatman,
I am mournful in having to deliver this sullen message to you: you are 'Mary.' As dreadful as it might be for you to accept this realization, you have to embrace this fact and seek help in correcting your behavioral ailment.
Unfortunately, you are just like Joseph's 'Mary,' in which, because of your loneliness, you crave attention. This feeling of worthlessness that you possess directs you to 'pick fights' with individuals just so that you can be recognized. That is, be singularly identified from the herd.
I certainly do not want to attribute the physical aspects of 'The Simpson's Comicbook Guy' (a cynosure reference that profilers in federal law enforcement like to use because of its universal cognition) to yourself, but the underlying personality is relevant. I cannot affirm this, but I am quite sure that you participate in other internet chat rooms and pursue the same line of adversarial behavior, just to gain attention. I suspect that you are an individual who has been neglected.
Not only did you waste your own time in this thread, but you also wasted the time of dedicated individuals who are earnest in their effort. In addition, you blindly accused a man of something that you have no evidence in which to back your claim. Again, you were just fishing for attention. You should be ashamed of yourself.
I apologize if the reality of all this comes as a shock to you, (the truth hurts) but please do not expect me to reply to your rebuttal because I am well aware of the game that you play and I will not join in. Please take your meaningless fight off this website and apply it somewhere else.
POST SCRIPT FOR SENIOR MEMBERS: You fell into Batman's trap because you recognized [him] and lent [him] the credence and credibility that [he] has not established. (but so sorely desires) [He] constantly attacked your character and integrity, but because of your kind nature, you failed to question [him] on [his] achievements and credibility. Please, for the purpose of our mission, don't veer from the path in order to entertain 'Comicbook Guys' like Batman. Focus on the task at hand. For every reply written to Batman, an equal amount of time could have been spent petitioning a Congressman or Senator. ---Rick
I am mournful in having to deliver this sullen message to you: you are 'Mary.' As dreadful as it might be for you to accept this realization, you have to embrace this fact and seek help in correcting your behavioral ailment.
Unfortunately, you are just like Joseph's 'Mary,' in which, because of your loneliness, you crave attention. This feeling of worthlessness that you possess directs you to 'pick fights' with individuals just so that you can be recognized. That is, be singularly identified from the herd.
I certainly do not want to attribute the physical aspects of 'The Simpson's Comicbook Guy' (a cynosure reference that profilers in federal law enforcement like to use because of its universal cognition) to yourself, but the underlying personality is relevant. I cannot affirm this, but I am quite sure that you participate in other internet chat rooms and pursue the same line of adversarial behavior, just to gain attention. I suspect that you are an individual who has been neglected.
Not only did you waste your own time in this thread, but you also wasted the time of dedicated individuals who are earnest in their effort. In addition, you blindly accused a man of something that you have no evidence in which to back your claim. Again, you were just fishing for attention. You should be ashamed of yourself.
I apologize if the reality of all this comes as a shock to you, (the truth hurts) but please do not expect me to reply to your rebuttal because I am well aware of the game that you play and I will not join in. Please take your meaningless fight off this website and apply it somewhere else.
POST SCRIPT FOR SENIOR MEMBERS: You fell into Batman's trap because you recognized [him] and lent [him] the credence and credibility that [he] has not established. (but so sorely desires) [He] constantly attacked your character and integrity, but because of your kind nature, you failed to question [him] on [his] achievements and credibility. Please, for the purpose of our mission, don't veer from the path in order to entertain 'Comicbook Guys' like Batman. Focus on the task at hand. For every reply written to Batman, an equal amount of time could have been spent petitioning a Congressman or Senator. ---Rick
Posted by Anonymous
- Sep 03, 2002, 09:02 PMBatman,
You have asked a question of several well-educated people all of who have demonstrated a willingness to take on the federal government if necessary to bring about changes they believe justified and important. As George said in his last reply to you, our decision making given Joseph's situation may or may not have been his, might not be expected to have been his, but most assuredly has no bearing on his believability with regard to either his decision-making or his story in general. The real world situation related by Drew Richardson likely has more bearing on the nature of the difficult decision Joseph may have been confronted with and the plausibility of the ultimate decision he claims to have made.
You have asked a question of several well-educated people all of who have demonstrated a willingness to take on the federal government if necessary to bring about changes they believe justified and important. As George said in his last reply to you, our decision making given Joseph's situation may or may not have been his, might not be expected to have been his, but most assuredly has no bearing on his believability with regard to either his decision-making or his story in general. The real world situation related by Drew Richardson likely has more bearing on the nature of the difficult decision Joseph may have been confronted with and the plausibility of the ultimate decision he claims to have made.
Posted by Skeptic
- Sep 03, 2002, 08:56 PMQuote from: Joseph on Sep 02, 2002, 08:04 AM
You asked: "Did you really think that by confessing you would put yourself in a better position to remain in law enforcement or maintain the respect of your fellow officers?" Yes, Batman, I really did. I know better now, with the benefit of 9 years of hindsight. As I said in my previous posts, I suffered from a major lack of judgement back then.
I'm not sure it would be fair to characterize yourself in this way. The whole point of polygraphy is to convince you your interrogators already know everything and that they and others have complete confidence in the results (it doesn't take much convincing for most people who don't know what bunk polygraphs are), that what you did wasn't that bad, and that your best bet is "honesty". If you're convinced that the polygraph has already damned you (the deliberate impression the polygrapher strives for), it is a logical conclusion to come to that an admission is your best option.
IMHO you were guilty of a lack of knowledge and/or bullheadedness, not judgement.
Skeptic
Posted by George W. Maschke
- Sep 03, 2002, 06:20 PMBatman,
You write in part:
I think my answer to your question speaks for itself. Don't expect a simple "yes" or "no" answer to a question that demands a more complex answer. In any event, what I might or might not have done in similar circumstances has no bearing on Joseph's credibility.
You write in part:
QuoteAs for your somewhat lengthy answer to my question about falsely confessing to an allegation of sexual assault/molestation, is it safe for me to say your answer is "no" regardless of all the retoric. It sounded like maybe a very qualified "no", but still a "no". I believe you are a very intelligent individual (no Batman BS here) and I find it hard to believe that at any time, under any circumstances (short of torture) you would confess to a crime you did not commit.
I think my answer to your question speaks for itself. Don't expect a simple "yes" or "no" answer to a question that demands a more complex answer. In any event, what I might or might not have done in similar circumstances has no bearing on Joseph's credibility.
Posted by Batman (Guest)
- Sep 03, 2002, 06:02 PMJoseph,
Thanks for the additional details, I just printed your last post and will give it a good read (gotta save those internet minutes ya know.)
George,
I wouldn't call it backpedaling, how about coasting. As for your somewhat lengthy answer to my question about falsely confessing to an allegation of sexual assault/molestation, is it safe for me to say your answer is "no" regardless of all the retoric. It sounded like maybe a very qualified "no", but still a "no". I believe you are a very intelligent individual (no Batman BS here) and I find it hard to believe that at any time, under any circumstances (short of torture) you would confess to a crime you did not commit.
Still waiting to hear from Beech and Anonymous.
Batman
Thanks for the additional details, I just printed your last post and will give it a good read (gotta save those internet minutes ya know.)
George,
I wouldn't call it backpedaling, how about coasting. As for your somewhat lengthy answer to my question about falsely confessing to an allegation of sexual assault/molestation, is it safe for me to say your answer is "no" regardless of all the retoric. It sounded like maybe a very qualified "no", but still a "no". I believe you are a very intelligent individual (no Batman BS here) and I find it hard to believe that at any time, under any circumstances (short of torture) you would confess to a crime you did not commit.
Still waiting to hear from Beech and Anonymous.
Batman
Posted by Joseph
- Sep 02, 2002, 06:29 PMAs promised, here is the rest of the story. Beech, I appreciate you looking out for me with your warning. But I don't feel tormented by Batman. I appreciate his input. He has shown me that the way I explain the incident makes me look guilty, even though I am not guilty. I am sure that this impression contributed to a poly examiner and a CVSA examiner determining that I was being deceptive when I was not.
Anyway, Mary did not go to the police with her allegations. She told a classmate that she came over to my house, that she began to kiss me, and then I fondled her breasts over her clothing. The classmate told a teacher. As required by law, the teacher called the police. A patrol deputy responded to the high school and tried to speak with Mary. She refused to talk with the deputy, but she did say I never touched her. The deputy wrote a sexual battery report naming me as the suspect. I think that Mary made up the story to impress her classmate with the fact that she was so hot and desirable that an older man wanted her. She did not think that her classmate would take her story at face value and report it to a teacher. That is why she did not cooperate with the patrol deputy. This development took her by surprise.
The detectives got a hold of the report, and they also tried to interview Mary. Once again, she told the detectives that no sexual contact took place between us. A few days later, the detectives spoke with Mary again. This time, her story changed. Now Mary said that she came over to my house because she wanted my help with her homework. We talked for a while, then she began to kiss me. While she was kissing me, I fondled her breasts over her clothing. She claimed that she tried to push me away, but was not able to. She said that I stopped fondling her when my pager went off. When I got up to answer the page, she ran out of the house. Once outside on the sidewalk, she encountered another neighbor. She told this neighbor about what happened, and this neighbor came into my house and beat me up. Every single thing Mary alleged is false! The reason I think she repeated her lies to the detectives is because she liked the attention she was getting. If you remember from a previous post, Mary used to complain that she had no friends and had no one else to talk to other than me. Now, all of a sudden, she is the center of attention. I think that Mary liked this attention and would have said anything in order to keep it. Including telling a whopping lie.
When the detectives interviewed me, I told them the same things that I have said in my previous posts. I never touched Mary's breasts, nor have I ever touched her in any sexual manner whatsoever. On the day and time in question, Mary did not come over to my house at all. In fact, it had been at least a month since Mary was last over. Even though I did not want to hurt Mary's feelings by telling her directly to get lost, her visits were annoying and uncomfortable, and I was finding more and more excuses to not invite her in when she came knocking.
I had two pieces of evidence to prove that Mary was lying about the entire thing. First was the other neighbor. The other neighbor told the detectives that Mary never told him that I sexually assualted her, and that he never came into my house, and that he never fought with me. He also said that on the day and time in question, he was at work, not at home. He told the detectives (and IAD) that Mary was lying. So a completely independent witness confirmed my verson of events.
The second piece of evidence was my pager. I had paperwork that proved I cancelled my pager service about two to three months before Mary made these allegations. Thus, it was impossible for my pager to go off on the date and time Mary said it did. This also proved that Mary was lying. This is why the LASD detectives believed me and not Mary. Unfortunely, IAD pretty much ignored this evidence and concentrated solely on the polygraph. Even if I did not falsely confess, failing the poly was enough for them to fire me. As a reseve, I did not have the same rights and protections that full-time officers enjoy. I was not entitled to a hearing, nor did I have the right to appeal the Chief's decision. The only thing I was allowed to do was write a response to the investigation, known as a Skelley Response. My Skelley Response says pretty much the same things that I am saying in these posts.
Batman, does this answer your questions?
Anyway, Mary did not go to the police with her allegations. She told a classmate that she came over to my house, that she began to kiss me, and then I fondled her breasts over her clothing. The classmate told a teacher. As required by law, the teacher called the police. A patrol deputy responded to the high school and tried to speak with Mary. She refused to talk with the deputy, but she did say I never touched her. The deputy wrote a sexual battery report naming me as the suspect. I think that Mary made up the story to impress her classmate with the fact that she was so hot and desirable that an older man wanted her. She did not think that her classmate would take her story at face value and report it to a teacher. That is why she did not cooperate with the patrol deputy. This development took her by surprise.
The detectives got a hold of the report, and they also tried to interview Mary. Once again, she told the detectives that no sexual contact took place between us. A few days later, the detectives spoke with Mary again. This time, her story changed. Now Mary said that she came over to my house because she wanted my help with her homework. We talked for a while, then she began to kiss me. While she was kissing me, I fondled her breasts over her clothing. She claimed that she tried to push me away, but was not able to. She said that I stopped fondling her when my pager went off. When I got up to answer the page, she ran out of the house. Once outside on the sidewalk, she encountered another neighbor. She told this neighbor about what happened, and this neighbor came into my house and beat me up. Every single thing Mary alleged is false! The reason I think she repeated her lies to the detectives is because she liked the attention she was getting. If you remember from a previous post, Mary used to complain that she had no friends and had no one else to talk to other than me. Now, all of a sudden, she is the center of attention. I think that Mary liked this attention and would have said anything in order to keep it. Including telling a whopping lie.
When the detectives interviewed me, I told them the same things that I have said in my previous posts. I never touched Mary's breasts, nor have I ever touched her in any sexual manner whatsoever. On the day and time in question, Mary did not come over to my house at all. In fact, it had been at least a month since Mary was last over. Even though I did not want to hurt Mary's feelings by telling her directly to get lost, her visits were annoying and uncomfortable, and I was finding more and more excuses to not invite her in when she came knocking.
I had two pieces of evidence to prove that Mary was lying about the entire thing. First was the other neighbor. The other neighbor told the detectives that Mary never told him that I sexually assualted her, and that he never came into my house, and that he never fought with me. He also said that on the day and time in question, he was at work, not at home. He told the detectives (and IAD) that Mary was lying. So a completely independent witness confirmed my verson of events.
The second piece of evidence was my pager. I had paperwork that proved I cancelled my pager service about two to three months before Mary made these allegations. Thus, it was impossible for my pager to go off on the date and time Mary said it did. This also proved that Mary was lying. This is why the LASD detectives believed me and not Mary. Unfortunely, IAD pretty much ignored this evidence and concentrated solely on the polygraph. Even if I did not falsely confess, failing the poly was enough for them to fire me. As a reseve, I did not have the same rights and protections that full-time officers enjoy. I was not entitled to a hearing, nor did I have the right to appeal the Chief's decision. The only thing I was allowed to do was write a response to the investigation, known as a Skelley Response. My Skelley Response says pretty much the same things that I am saying in these posts.
Batman, does this answer your questions?
Posted by George W. Maschke
- Sep 02, 2002, 06:14 PMBatman,
You write in part:
It seems you're backpedaling from your initial accusation -- based on nothing more than your "statement analysis" of Joseph's first post -- that Joseph "failed both the polygraph and the CVSA, [he] lied" and that "[he] touched that girl's breasts in some manner."
Under similar circumstances, and at a similar age, I can't say I wouldn't have. Joseph trusted his interrogators. I grew up with a deep respect for and trust of authority (e.g., law enforcement officers and military), and I might well have become convinced, as Joseph says he did, that I needed to make a false admission to save my job. Especially at the age of 22.
When I took my FBI pre-employment polygraph, I was considerably older than Joseph was at the time of his LAPD IAD interrogation. I myself had been trained as an interrogator. But I was still naive. I went into the polygraph suite expecting to be dealing with an intelligence professional who shared my sense of duty, honor, and country, and who would treat me as a fellow professional. (It was only later that I discovered that my FBI polygrapher, like all others involved in polygraph screening, was a lying charlatan.)
As it turns out, upon being accused of deception, I received only a very brief and not at all hostile "post-test" interrogation. Had I received a vigorous good cop/bad cop routine such as Joseph described, I might have been pursuaded that it was in my interest to make something up to confess to. I like to think I would have had the presence of mind not have done such a thing, but not having been put in that situation, I cannot know for sure how I would have handled it.
You write in part:
QuoteGeorge, when Joseph finishes with the details, if Beech Trees will allow him to, then I'll comment further on why, at least up to this point, I believe he is withholding some information regarding his 16 year old neighbor and her allegation against him.
It seems you're backpedaling from your initial accusation -- based on nothing more than your "statement analysis" of Joseph's first post -- that Joseph "failed both the polygraph and the CVSA, [he] lied" and that "[he] touched that girl's breasts in some manner."
QuoteOne last question for George, Beech, and Anonymous, would you guys have ever confessed to an allegation of sexual assault/molestation IF YOU DIDN'T DO IT? Just wondering?
Under similar circumstances, and at a similar age, I can't say I wouldn't have. Joseph trusted his interrogators. I grew up with a deep respect for and trust of authority (e.g., law enforcement officers and military), and I might well have become convinced, as Joseph says he did, that I needed to make a false admission to save my job. Especially at the age of 22.
When I took my FBI pre-employment polygraph, I was considerably older than Joseph was at the time of his LAPD IAD interrogation. I myself had been trained as an interrogator. But I was still naive. I went into the polygraph suite expecting to be dealing with an intelligence professional who shared my sense of duty, honor, and country, and who would treat me as a fellow professional. (It was only later that I discovered that my FBI polygrapher, like all others involved in polygraph screening, was a lying charlatan.)
As it turns out, upon being accused of deception, I received only a very brief and not at all hostile "post-test" interrogation. Had I received a vigorous good cop/bad cop routine such as Joseph described, I might have been pursuaded that it was in my interest to make something up to confess to. I like to think I would have had the presence of mind not have done such a thing, but not having been put in that situation, I cannot know for sure how I would have handled it.
Posted by Drew Richardson
- Sep 02, 2002, 03:40 PMBatman,
The others you questioned will no doubt speak for themselves, but I thought I would share the following anecdote with you. In the recent past in connection with my current work an individual representing a close relative approached me. That individual told of me a story that included his belief that this family member was innocent of the sex crime allegations that had been made (irrelevant to the point I will make although I should say that I was contacted in order to evaluate whether I could help these people establish truth not circumvent it).
This individual further advised me that the relative had been charged and was awaiting trial but had been offered the following two alternatives to taking the matter to trial: (1) offering a plea and accepting a substantially reduced sentence followed by parole or (2) becoming a part of that state's registered sex offender program. The alleged sexual criminal had been advised by a nationally known and respected attorney to avoid taking the matter to trial (not because he believed there existed a scintilla of evidence to convict), but that in this particular jurisdiction, and, in particular with regard to sex crimes, he felt the burden rested with the accused to show that he/she was innocent (as opposed to the statutory requirements for the state to show beyond a reasonable doubt that the accused was guilty). Although no decision had been made regarding the alternative choices and more information was being sought at the time of my last contact, based on the attorney's recommendation, one of the latter two options was then the likely route that would be chosen by the accused.
The point of all this is exactly this--it should be quite easy to see that under circumstances such as these and upon the advice of highly respected counsel, that a client might well be led to plead guilty to a crime that he/she did not commit. Of course, on a lesser scale of false statement against one's interest, we have all read about various alleged false confession(s) following a polygraph examination(s). Regards,
Drew Richardson
Quote...One last question for George, Beech, and Anonymous, would you guys have ever confessed to an allegation of sexual assault/molestation IF YOU DIDN'T DO IT? Just wondering...
The others you questioned will no doubt speak for themselves, but I thought I would share the following anecdote with you. In the recent past in connection with my current work an individual representing a close relative approached me. That individual told of me a story that included his belief that this family member was innocent of the sex crime allegations that had been made (irrelevant to the point I will make although I should say that I was contacted in order to evaluate whether I could help these people establish truth not circumvent it).
This individual further advised me that the relative had been charged and was awaiting trial but had been offered the following two alternatives to taking the matter to trial: (1) offering a plea and accepting a substantially reduced sentence followed by parole or (2) becoming a part of that state's registered sex offender program. The alleged sexual criminal had been advised by a nationally known and respected attorney to avoid taking the matter to trial (not because he believed there existed a scintilla of evidence to convict), but that in this particular jurisdiction, and, in particular with regard to sex crimes, he felt the burden rested with the accused to show that he/she was innocent (as opposed to the statutory requirements for the state to show beyond a reasonable doubt that the accused was guilty). Although no decision had been made regarding the alternative choices and more information was being sought at the time of my last contact, based on the attorney's recommendation, one of the latter two options was then the likely route that would be chosen by the accused.
The point of all this is exactly this--it should be quite easy to see that under circumstances such as these and upon the advice of highly respected counsel, that a client might well be led to plead guilty to a crime that he/she did not commit. Of course, on a lesser scale of false statement against one's interest, we have all read about various alleged false confession(s) following a polygraph examination(s). Regards,
Drew Richardson
Posted by Batman (Guest)
- Sep 02, 2002, 01:13 PMGeorge, I believe you.
Anonymous, if Beech Trees is accurate in diagnosing my mental illness then yes I have seen 3-4 educated, articulate people in the same room at one time, problem is, they've all been me.
Beech Trees, thanks for letting us in on your little secret, do you have to medicate for your SKITSohFREENeeuh?
Joseph, I'm listening, please continue.
George, when Joseph finishes with the details, if Beech Trees will allow him to, then I'll comment further on why, at least up to this point, I believe he is withholding some information regarding his 16 year old neighbor and her allegation against him.
Did I leave anyone out? There's only one of me, but never let it be said that Batman didn't take on all comers, however I do wish I had a Robin. Any takers? The position appears to be open, does not pay well, have to be willing to take a lot of lumps from a pretty rough crowd on this site, and must be willing to stand tall and fight for the honor of all evil police interrogators (to include the most evil of all - Polygraph Examiners).
One last question for George, Beech, and Anonymous, would you guys have ever confessed to an allegation of sexual assault/molestation IF YOU DIDN'T DO IT? Just wondering?
Batman
Anonymous, if Beech Trees is accurate in diagnosing my mental illness then yes I have seen 3-4 educated, articulate people in the same room at one time, problem is, they've all been me.
Beech Trees, thanks for letting us in on your little secret, do you have to medicate for your SKITSohFREENeeuh?
Joseph, I'm listening, please continue.
George, when Joseph finishes with the details, if Beech Trees will allow him to, then I'll comment further on why, at least up to this point, I believe he is withholding some information regarding his 16 year old neighbor and her allegation against him.
Did I leave anyone out? There's only one of me, but never let it be said that Batman didn't take on all comers, however I do wish I had a Robin. Any takers? The position appears to be open, does not pay well, have to be willing to take a lot of lumps from a pretty rough crowd on this site, and must be willing to stand tall and fight for the honor of all evil police interrogators (to include the most evil of all - Polygraph Examiners).
One last question for George, Beech, and Anonymous, would you guys have ever confessed to an allegation of sexual assault/molestation IF YOU DIDN'T DO IT? Just wondering?
Batman