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A forum for free and open discussion of polygraph-related topics
Posted by quickfix
- Jan 23, 2018, 02:53 PMQuote from: sammorter on Jan 22, 2018, 04:01 PMIf you are seriously considering taking a polygraph, I don't think you want to hear any more about my experiences.You're right-in fact nobody does!
Posted by John M.
- Jan 22, 2018, 04:01 PMQuote from: billyjo2 on Jan 21, 2018, 01:17 PM
I did not receive any instructions regarding that.
Just asking because they had mentioned something to this effect in one of their interrogatories. Would seem weird though don't you think, to instruct people not to do any research? I mean what are they trying to hide, right?
If I were you, I wouldn't worry so much about the questions themselves. It's going to come down to your ability to not flinch under duress. Think about it - 5 questions over four hours? When they get right up in your face and call you a liar, say that you must be cheating on your wife, or you're gay, or you did drugs - what are you going to do? Do you think that you could remain calm the next time they ask you the question? Hell no, you're not. They screwed with my mind for five of these interrogations in three years. PTSD.
If you are seriously considering taking a polygraph, I don't think you want to hear any more about my experiences.
Posted by billyjo2
- Jan 21, 2018, 01:17 PMQuote from: sammorter on Jan 12, 2018, 02:17 PM
By the way, were you ever instructed not to do any research in to the polygraph?
I did not receive any instructions regarding that.
John M. : Do the questions here line up with your experiences during the polygraph questioning?
Posted by John M.
- Jan 12, 2018, 02:17 PMQuote from: billyjo2 on Nov 27, 2017, 04:27 PMThat would be the only question I could fail on the CI poly, as I am very confident about the rest of it.You should not be confident about anything when it comes to the DIA administered polygraph examination.
When the examiner tells you that he "sees" something, he'll stop the test and begin with the interrogations. Highly accusatory and condescending verbal abuse follows. These altercations are then interspersed with turning the machine back on and running through the same questions, over and over, again and again. Sessions typically last about four hours. Yeah, four hours for five questions.
Lying on the SF86 is a serious matter. Admitting to that fact, makes me suspicious of your intentions on this website.
By the way, were you ever instructed not to do any research in to the polygraph?
Posted by DominickTav
- Jan 12, 2018, 10:35 AMI didn't know those questions are handled in such a way. That's clever. Any other interesting facts like this, George?
Posted by George W. Maschke
- Dec 21, 2017, 05:18 AMRegarding "sacrifice relevant" questions, which are not scored, see pp. 96-97 of the 4th edition of The Lie Behind the Lie Detector.
Yes, an admission to falsifying an official document could cause career harm. But the polygraph operators assume everyone has done something like this (for example, with respect to tax returns, travel vouchers, or sick leave). In a directed-lie "test," the operator will tell the examinee to think of an instance where he did this, but to not tell him about it, and to think about that instance when answering the directed-lie "control" question, "No."
Yes, an admission to falsifying an official document could cause career harm. But the polygraph operators assume everyone has done something like this (for example, with respect to tax returns, travel vouchers, or sick leave). In a directed-lie "test," the operator will tell the examinee to think of an instance where he did this, but to not tell him about it, and to think about that instance when answering the directed-lie "control" question, "No."
Posted by billyjo2
- Dec 21, 2017, 01:46 AMThank you for your response. I have read your article as well and it is very illuminating about how these polygraphs are scored.
Two last questions, that I did not get completely answered by the articles you have linked to:
What is the point of the Sacrifice Relevant question and how is it scored in the polygraph?
(edit: I found this article: https://realpolygraph.blogspot.se/2009/06/is-sacrifice-relevantrelevant.html Is this correct?)
Second, in the below sequence, the second question is a control question so you are supposed to "lie" but ,in reality, actually admit to falsifying a govt document? Wouldn't that put your clearance in jeopardy? (its a bit confusing to me)
S2 Y REGARDING THE SECURITY QUESTIONS, DO YOU INTEND TO TELL THE TRUTH?
C3 N OUTSIDE OF SECURITY ISSUES, DID YOU EVER FALSIFY ANY OFFICIAL DOCUMENT?
Two last questions, that I did not get completely answered by the articles you have linked to:
What is the point of the Sacrifice Relevant question and how is it scored in the polygraph?
(edit: I found this article: https://realpolygraph.blogspot.se/2009/06/is-sacrifice-relevantrelevant.html Is this correct?)
Second, in the below sequence, the second question is a control question so you are supposed to "lie" but ,in reality, actually admit to falsifying a govt document? Wouldn't that put your clearance in jeopardy? (its a bit confusing to me)
S2 Y REGARDING THE SECURITY QUESTIONS, DO YOU INTEND TO TELL THE TRUTH?
C3 N OUTSIDE OF SECURITY ISSUES, DID YOU EVER FALSIFY ANY OFFICIAL DOCUMENT?
Posted by George W. Maschke
- Dec 20, 2017, 02:13 AMQuote from: billyjo2 on Dec 14, 2017, 06:16 PMThank you and apologies for the late response. I have read over most of the links you provided and find it very interesting. The questions they ask during the CI poly as you have detailed match closely with what I have heard from colleagues but there are some ones that could be a potential hang up in my situation and for anyone in general.
Questions such as:
"Do you intend to answer the security questions truthfully?"
"Outside of security issues did you ever falsify any part of an official document? - This lines up with the SF 86 question i asked before (though I do not understand what the outside of security issues portion means)
These seem to be so open to interpretation that could cause someone to over analyze the question and get in trouble. Are these still being used?
I don't know for sure, but I expect so. If you download the "DIA confirmed countermeasure case files" (40 MB .zip file) obtained by AntiPolygraph.org, upon expanding the archive, you can look through the folder titled "Documents" for each case and view the polygraph charts. At the end of each chart, you'll find a list of the questions that were actually asked. For example, for case #26, series 1, chart 2, the questions asked (including the subject's answers) were:
QuoteX
I1 Y Are you sitting down?
I2 Y Are the lights on?
Sac Y Do you intend to answer the security questions truthfully?
1C1 N Did you ever commit a traffic violation?
1R1 N Have you deliberately damaged any government information or defense system?
1R2 N Have you been involved in espionage or terrorism against the US?
1C2 N Did you ever lose your temper about anything?
2R1 N Have you deliberately damaged any government information or defense system?
2R2 N Have you been involved in espionage or terrorism against the US?
2C1 N Did you ever commit a traffic violation?
3R1 N Have you deliberately damaged any government information or defense system?
3R2 N Have you been involved in espionage or terrorism against the US?
2C2 N Did you ever lose your temper about anything?
XX
The aforementioned files date to 2013. For discussion of the significance of these files, again see "Leaked Documents Point to DIA's Inability to Detect Sophisticated Polygraph Countermeasures."
QuoteSecond, what is the purpose for asking questions such as:
Did you ever say anything negative about another person behind their back?
Did you ever lose your temper when you were angry?
In your personal life, did you ever cheat at anything?
Are these to establish a baseline for your other answers?
thanks again.
These are so-called "control" or comparison questions. Reactions to them are compared to the examinee's reactions to the relevant questions. If reactions to the "control" questions are stronger than reactions to the relevant questions, the examinee is deemed truthful with respect to the relevant questions and passes. Conversely, if reactions to the relevant questions are stronger, the examinee is deemed to be lying about the relevant questions, and he "fails" this pseudoscientific procedure. This is explained in my previously referenced article, "The Lying Game: National Security and the Test for Espionage and Sabotage."
Posted by billyjo2
- Dec 14, 2017, 06:16 PMThank you and apologies for the late response. I have read over most of the links you provided and find it very interesting. The questions they ask during the CI poly as you have detailed match closely with what I have heard from colleagues but there are some ones that could be a potential hang up in my situation and for anyone in general.
Questions such as:
"Do you intend to answer the security questions truthfully?"
"Outside of security issues did you ever falsify any part of an official document? - This lines up with the SF 86 question i asked before (though I do not understand what the outside of security issues portion means)
These seem to be so open to interpretation that could cause someone to over analyze the question and get in trouble. Are these still being used?
Second, what is the purpose for asking questions such as:
Did you ever say anything negative about another person behind their back?
Did you ever lose your temper when you were angry?
In your personal life, did you ever cheat at anything?
Are these to establish a baseline for your other answers?
thanks again.
Questions such as:
"Do you intend to answer the security questions truthfully?"
"Outside of security issues did you ever falsify any part of an official document? - This lines up with the SF 86 question i asked before (though I do not understand what the outside of security issues portion means)
These seem to be so open to interpretation that could cause someone to over analyze the question and get in trouble. Are these still being used?
Second, what is the purpose for asking questions such as:
Did you ever say anything negative about another person behind their back?
Did you ever lose your temper when you were angry?
In your personal life, did you ever cheat at anything?
Are these to establish a baseline for your other answers?
thanks again.
Posted by George W. Maschke
- Nov 27, 2017, 05:16 PMbillyjo2,
I have not taken a DIA CI-scope polygraph, but I am familiar with their procedure, including the precise questions they ask.
DIA uses a technique called the "Test for Espionage and Sabotage" (TES) that you will find documented in the Federal Detection of Deception Examiner Handbook:
https://antipolygraph.org/documents/federal-polygraph-handbook-02-10-2006.pdf
See also my critique of this polygraph technique in "The Lying Game: National Security and the Test for Espionage and Sabotage":
https://antipolygraph.org/articles/article-002.shtml
AntiPolygraph.org has also received actual DIA polygraph case files dated to 2013 that document the precise questions then asked:
https://antipolygraph.org/blog/2015/04/18/leaked-documents-point-to-dias-inability-to-detect-sophisticated-polygraph-countermeasures/
The relevant questions were:
As you see, there is no relevant question about the completeness and accuracy of one's SF-86.
But you would be mistaken to suppose that any such question is the only question you might "fail."
Polygraph "testing" is a pseudoscientific fraud, and the truthfulness of one's answers has little, if anything, to do with whether one passes. It's common for truthful persons to wrongly be accused of lying.
In the past, virtually everyone who submitted to a DoD polygraph passed, and it seemed that the only way to "fail" was to make an inculpatory admission:
https://antipolygraph.org/forum/index.php?topic=42.msg130#msg130
It appears that this is no longer the case, and that DoD (and DIA) polygraph operators may flunk an examinee absent an inculpatory admission.
For a recent example, see the case of John M.:
https://antipolygraph.org/forum/index.php?topic=5500.msg41928#msg41928
And for an earlier example, see the case of DIA analyst John Dullahan:
https://antipolygraph.org/blog/2010/11/27/john-dullahan-dia-analyst-fired-after-failing-polygraph-profiled-in-washington-post/
If I were in your shoes, knowing the unreliability of polygraphy and the permanent career harm that a false positive polygraph result can cause, I would not apply for any position that requires a polygraph "test."
I have not taken a DIA CI-scope polygraph, but I am familiar with their procedure, including the precise questions they ask.
DIA uses a technique called the "Test for Espionage and Sabotage" (TES) that you will find documented in the Federal Detection of Deception Examiner Handbook:
https://antipolygraph.org/documents/federal-polygraph-handbook-02-10-2006.pdf
See also my critique of this polygraph technique in "The Lying Game: National Security and the Test for Espionage and Sabotage":
https://antipolygraph.org/articles/article-002.shtml
AntiPolygraph.org has also received actual DIA polygraph case files dated to 2013 that document the precise questions then asked:
https://antipolygraph.org/blog/2015/04/18/leaked-documents-point-to-dias-inability-to-detect-sophisticated-polygraph-countermeasures/
The relevant questions were:
QuoteSeries A:
Have you deliberately damaged any government information or defense system?
Have you been involved in espionage or terrorism against the U.S.?
Series B:
Have you deliberately mishandled any classified information?
Have you had any unauthorized foreign contacts?
As you see, there is no relevant question about the completeness and accuracy of one's SF-86.
But you would be mistaken to suppose that any such question is the only question you might "fail."
Polygraph "testing" is a pseudoscientific fraud, and the truthfulness of one's answers has little, if anything, to do with whether one passes. It's common for truthful persons to wrongly be accused of lying.
In the past, virtually everyone who submitted to a DoD polygraph passed, and it seemed that the only way to "fail" was to make an inculpatory admission:
https://antipolygraph.org/forum/index.php?topic=42.msg130#msg130
It appears that this is no longer the case, and that DoD (and DIA) polygraph operators may flunk an examinee absent an inculpatory admission.
For a recent example, see the case of John M.:
https://antipolygraph.org/forum/index.php?topic=5500.msg41928#msg41928
And for an earlier example, see the case of DIA analyst John Dullahan:
https://antipolygraph.org/blog/2010/11/27/john-dullahan-dia-analyst-fired-after-failing-polygraph-profiled-in-washington-post/
If I were in your shoes, knowing the unreliability of polygraphy and the permanent career harm that a false positive polygraph result can cause, I would not apply for any position that requires a polygraph "test."
Posted by billyjo2
- Nov 27, 2017, 04:27 PMHi all, I have a potential opportunity and have a couple of questions regarding taking a DIA Counter Intel polygraph, does anyone have any experiences with it? I have heard alot of mixed stories about it and am trying to decide whether to risk taking the polygraph.
I have been working the DoD for a long time and am a law abiding citizen, though I have some lifestyle things (very minor offense but in the eyes of the DoD bad) I did in early college that I never disclosed on my security clearance paperwork, due to being unsure and fear of losing my job opportunity way back then. Though I have not done anything since then, I fear this will cost me my clearance and job if I proceed with the polygraph.
Regarding the polygraph directly:
I have heard though none of the questions are lifestyle related, but they do ask if everything on your SF86 is correct? (not sure if this is true but sounds reasonable). That would be the only question I could fail on the CI poly, as I am very confident about the rest of it. But, it seems as though taking a CI polygraph is a bad idea for me even though I have no issues at besides that early mistake.
Any thoughts on that?
thanks!
I have been working the DoD for a long time and am a law abiding citizen, though I have some lifestyle things (very minor offense but in the eyes of the DoD bad) I did in early college that I never disclosed on my security clearance paperwork, due to being unsure and fear of losing my job opportunity way back then. Though I have not done anything since then, I fear this will cost me my clearance and job if I proceed with the polygraph.
Regarding the polygraph directly:
I have heard though none of the questions are lifestyle related, but they do ask if everything on your SF86 is correct? (not sure if this is true but sounds reasonable). That would be the only question I could fail on the CI poly, as I am very confident about the rest of it. But, it seems as though taking a CI polygraph is a bad idea for me even though I have no issues at besides that early mistake.
Any thoughts on that?
thanks!