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A forum for free and open discussion of polygraph-related topics
Posted by Rome
- May 17, 2016, 08:33 AMI just got the notification today that I have, indeed, beaten the poly test. Needless to say, they used different words in telling me that.
Although there are still things that could do me in, It is looking more and more likely that I'll have a huge decision to make.
Although there are still things that could do me in, It is looking more and more likely that I'll have a huge decision to make.
Posted by Ex Member
- May 16, 2016, 12:01 PMQuote from: 7E4341492C0 on May 15, 2016, 10:37 PMhe is a member of the state's polygraph examiner's association.Then he probably knows better. I wonder if the state association condones examiners concocting their own rogue procedures?
Posted by Rome
- May 15, 2016, 10:37 PMI thought I may have been using some of the terminology wrong. Sorry about that.
I do find the comments here interesting. I have to say that I thought the test would have been more intense, and I thought it would be more in depth. Especially since, like I said in my OP, he is a member of the state's polygraph examiner's association.
You'd think he knows what he's doing, but that may not be the case. Maybe it's just a deal where he took a class a while ago, now he pays his dues and it looks good on his resume. I don't know how that works.
I do find the comments here interesting. I have to say that I thought the test would have been more intense, and I thought it would be more in depth. Especially since, like I said in my OP, he is a member of the state's polygraph examiner's association.
You'd think he knows what he's doing, but that may not be the case. Maybe it's just a deal where he took a class a while ago, now he pays his dues and it looks good on his resume. I don't know how that works.
Posted by Dan Mangan
- May 15, 2016, 08:50 PMQuote from: Arkhangelsk on May 15, 2016, 05:48 PMIf the Question Set contained a half a dozen or so "Intent Questions" ending with a Directed Lie Control (Comparison) Question, then this guy doesn't know what he's doing
Roger that, Ark.
The polygraph "testing" bidness, IMHO, is rife with incompetence, abuse, and outright greed.
That's why sometimes the polygraph "test" isn't all that much of a "test".
Posted by Ex Member
- May 15, 2016, 05:48 PMRome you are confusing Irrelevant Questions and Control (Comparison) Questions. If the Question Set contained a half a dozen or so "Intent Questions" ending with a Directed Lie Control (Comparison) Question, then this guy doesn't know what he's doing. But again, I'd have to see the question set verbatim to really see what he may have been up to.
Posted by Rome
- May 15, 2016, 03:06 PMQuote from: Arkhangelsk on May 14, 2016, 09:39 PMQuote from: 4A77757D180 on May 14, 2016, 08:54 PMInteresting. Do you guys have any theories on why he only asked the Intent Questions?I would have to see the question set in its entirety.
Oh ok. Well, I can ballpark it to something like this:
Control questions: about 8 of them, ending with control lie.
Then there were three sets of questions. Beginning with two control questions, then followed by the intent questions (about 6-8) and ending with one control lie.
There was a short break of about 3 minutes between sets.
Each set of questions went like this and were focused on the intent of a particular topic. So the first set, after the controls (ie, "Are we currently in the US?" "Are the lights on in this room?") would only be something along the lines of "Do you plan to tell the truth regarding your drug use?" "Do you intend to tell the truth about drug use?" Repeated in various ways, or exactly the same way, about 8 times. Then the set ended with a control lie about an innocuous misdeed "Have you ever told a lie in your life?"
This was done 3 times. The controls at the beginning and the control lies at the end were different, but similar. The intent questions in between were changed on each set. So the first were about drug use. The second focused on sex and major crimes. Third about theft.
I know this isn't the set of questions in its entirety. But that was the pattern.
Posted by Ex Member
- May 14, 2016, 09:39 PMQuote from: 4A77757D180 on May 14, 2016, 08:54 PMInteresting. Do you guys have any theories on why he only asked the Intent Questions?I would have to see the question set in its entirety.
Posted by Rome
- May 14, 2016, 08:54 PMInteresting. Do you guys have any theories on why he only asked the Intent Questions?
Posted by Evan S
- May 14, 2016, 06:36 PMAn "Intent Question" sounds like a control question and not a relevant.
Posted by Ex Member
- May 14, 2016, 06:32 PMQuote from: 320F0D05600 on May 14, 2016, 05:39 PMAll I can really say is they were all centered around my intentions of being honest about the relevant topics (Stealing, drug use, etc.). He never asked me a direct question from the book such as "Have you ever used cocaine?" or "Have you ever committed a robbery?" or whatever.Really? I'm surprised; among the polygraph literature I'm familiar with, the "Intent Question" should be avoided if at all possible.
Posted by Rome
- May 14, 2016, 05:39 PMQuote from: Arkhangelsk on May 14, 2016, 03:29 PMQuote from: 162B2921440 on May 13, 2016, 10:58 PM"It's not a lie if you believe it." As we learned in Seinfeld from the George character, it holds a lot of weight in reality. You can rationalize just about anything in your head.Thanks for your detailed post. It provided a lot of insight into the experience. I personally have never been involved in a LE polygraph exam.
About rationalization, I don't think this is possible. As much as we can all fool ourselves, on some level we know better. Also, the deliberation alone can produce a reaction.
Regarding the rapport with the examiner, if this holds true, it only gives credence to the notion of "examiner bias."
Can you remember the exact wording of the Relevant Questions?
You may be right about rationalization but I don't know. I'm not saying it's airtight, but it helps. I think if you can convince yourself that whatever you did "doesn't count" or is no big deal, it'll cause less of a reaction when the topic comes up. It's a mental game that you can win if prepared. A big thing I did is not think too much about what they're asking and not dwelling on it. After the question, forget it was even asked, think about a song, a baseball game, whatever. So I would definitely say you'd want to avoid deliberation and answer everything without hesitation. The only time a slight deliberation may be OK is on the control lies; that may even help some.
Yes, my opinion is that examiner bias is a huge factor. It may be the biggest factor of all. I'm reading other people's experiences and that reinforces these beliefs. If the examiner thinks you're trustworthy or a good person, that goes a very long way. A lot of my advice to someone would be to cultivate that persona as soon as you arrive or start meeting people with that agency. If he thinks you are being deceptive for whatever reason, you're probably dead in the water. If your examiner says to himself beforehand that he's running "the toughest poly in the west" today, and you're the guy, it's over for you.
I don't remember the exact wording of the questions now. All I can really say is they were all centered around my intentions of being honest about the relevant topics (Stealing, drug use, etc.). He never asked me a direct question from the book such as "Have you ever used cocaine?" or "Have you ever committed a robbery?" or whatever.
Posted by Ex Member
- May 14, 2016, 03:29 PMQuote from: 162B2921440 on May 13, 2016, 10:58 PM"It's not a lie if you believe it." As we learned in Seinfeld from the George character, it holds a lot of weight in reality. You can rationalize just about anything in your head.Thanks for your detailed post. It provided a lot of insight into the experience. I personally have never been involved in a LE polygraph exam.
About rationalization, I don't think this is possible. As much as we can all fool ourselves, on some level we know better. Also, the deliberation alone can produce a reaction.
Regarding the rapport with the examiner, if this holds true, it only gives credence to the notion of "examiner bias."
Can you remember the exact wording of the Relevant Questions?
Posted by Rome
- May 14, 2016, 02:18 PMQuote from: George_Maschke on May 14, 2016, 10:52 AMThank you for sharing your polygraph experience, and for your candor.
I would advise anyone facing polygraph "testing" to see our book The Lie Behind the Lie Detector for a detailed description of the procedure and documented information on how one may mitigate the risk of "failing."
I note that your advice to "breathe steadily and deeply throughout the entire test" is likely to result in an accusation of countermeasure use.
Thank you for your reply. I consciously tried to not alter my breathing throughout the test and kept it steady and natural. Just going off of my experience, I can say that the examiner did not accuse me or hint to me about countermeasure use. If he suspected anything, he didn't say anything to me about it. Of course, other people may get different results with a different person.
Also, it is worth noting that I don't know with certainty right now that I got over on the poly. I am basing this solely on the fact that my background is continuing with a background investigator and the poly examiner did not follow up with any issues.
Posted by George W. Maschke
- May 14, 2016, 10:52 AMThank you for sharing your polygraph experience, and for your candor.
I would advise anyone facing polygraph "testing" to see our book The Lie Behind the Lie Detector for a detailed description of the procedure and documented information on how one may mitigate the risk of "failing."
I note that your advice to "breathe steadily and deeply throughout the entire test" is likely to result in an accusation of countermeasure use.
I would advise anyone facing polygraph "testing" to see our book The Lie Behind the Lie Detector for a detailed description of the procedure and documented information on how one may mitigate the risk of "failing."
I note that your advice to "breathe steadily and deeply throughout the entire test" is likely to result in an accusation of countermeasure use.
Posted by Rome
- May 13, 2016, 10:58 PMHello everyone,
I recently took a poly for a local law enforcement agency. I haven't gotten any official word on it, but I do believe I passed even though I really was not 100% truthful and used no real countermeasures. Here is my experience.
One thing upfront that may make this experience unique is that I really wasn't that invested in the outcome. I felt little pressure because I didn't care all that much about getting the job. I have a (non-LE) job now with very good benefits, retirement, freedoms, and I like my coworkers. Problem is that it's extremely boring and not challenging. Anyway, I was more afraid about passing and having to make a major life decision than failing. This may have helped.
Before the test, I met the officer (I found out via the internet beforehand that he is a member of the state's polygraph examiner association. I thought he would be a dyed in the wool poly believer). He was a nice enough guy throughout the pre poly phase, saying it was his job to get applicants through if we are 100% truthful and work out any issues as long as we are honest. Then I filled out a pre-poly booklet wherein I was supposed to admit to all the dirty things I've done. Well, I admitted to some. Not others. Some I just fudged.
We went over my answers beforehand. No major crimes (true), no domestic abuses/issues with women/kids/etc (all true). I admitted to a petty theft when I was a teen and some very small stealing of office supplies occasionally... pen, paper, etc. These were deemed no big deal, in fact he said he would barely consider the latter stealing since it was such a small scale. I believe he thought that me admitting to these small issues made it look like an honest admission (which they were). I mean, someone who did only this and still feels bad enough to admit it, probably hasn't done anything major. A totally clean book would end up being more suspicious than someone who's done some excusable minor things.
Then, an outright lie: I did visit a prostitute about a year ago (it was pretty fun and in a place in Nevada where it is legal). No one else in my life knows about this. They asked this, of course, and I checked no. When going over it verbally I just glossed over it casually like it was no big deal, treating it no differently than an outrageous one like the murder question.
I fudged the drug use history. Again, for the readers out there, I think a clean book in this section would look suspicious even it was true for you. I have used illegal drugs in the past but I fudged what they were, the number of times, and the last time I used it. I didn't want to admit to using a drug that would auto DQ so I said it was only marijuana. I didn't want to admit how recent it was since i think it was within the time frame of a DQ for that place. So I fudged those things. I made my answers consistent with my other paperwork for this agency.
Then I was connected to the machine and the test began. First he gave me a set of control questions to get a "read" on me. He said that he was able to determine what it looked like when I lied, when I told the truth, and that I could take the rest of the test. I didn't feel any different when I told the truth vs. the control lie question but whatever.
The relevant part of the test consisted of three sets of questions. Each began with a few control questions (along the lines of "Are we currently in the US", etc) followed by some relevant questions repeated over and over. Now, he never went into the specific questions from the pre-poly booklet, only whether or not I planned on being truthful about those things. Then each section ended with a control lie. I thought it was odd that he didn't ask questions from the book. Only things like "Do you plan to tell the truth about theft?" or "Do you intend to be truthful about undetected crimes?" or "Are you going to tell the truth about drug use?" So forth and so on. Obviously as you know now, I didn't plan to tell the truth regarding drug use or sex. When he asked about those, I simply said "Yes" and tried to use the same tone of voice as on the controls and on the ones I was actually honest about. However, I didn't avoid thinking about them. In fact, those things did pop into my head, but I said to myself, is that a big deal? Not really.
I admit to you now, when he was asking the relevant questions, I tried to relax but I could feel my blood pressure rise, and my heart rate go up. But still I think they went up on the controls during that stage too and they went about about the same for each relevant question. Part of me thinks that if you relax too much on the controls, they'll see a sharper reaction on the relevants. My advice there is to appear calm, but inside do not feel too relaxed. If you are nervous during the controls, not bad.
I didn't know it, but the test was over after the third set of relevant question and I stayed seated in the chair as he typed on the computer for some time. His demeanor changed after that. When he was done typing he simply and sternly said the test was over and that he was going to remove the testing equipment, then told me to get my bag and it was time to leave. He walked me out in silence. When we go to the door, he said at the end is when he discusses any issues or questions he has regarding the test and that he had nothing to discuss. He then told me that I'd hear something from another officer (Captain or Chief or someone, I forget), or maybe my background investigator and wished me good luck.
At first i wasn't sure what to make of it. I checked the mail each day for a rejection letter that still hasn't come. Since then, the investigator has been contacting my work references who have probably been giving me glowing endorsements. Would he still be working my background if I failed the poly? That doesn't seem likely. I have not personally heard from my investigator after the poly. So I think I may have gotten over on the poly without really trying. If the investigator follows up with another agency or two that I applied to and was DQ'd for, I may end up cooked anyway as I put that I used another drug besides marijuana on that application or two. So we shall see. I intend to take the prostitute visit to the grave, therefore that cannot be corroborated.
Now that I think I may end up getting an offer, I am under a lot of stress since it is a major life changing decision. I don't know yet if I will accept the offer if I do get it.
Here are my personal, unscientific tips on how I think that I beat it in no particular order:
1. Develop a rapport of trustworthiness with your examiner. If he has it out for you for whatever reason or is doing this with a chip on his shoulder, you will not pass. Do what you can to mitigate this. Be cordial, but not overly friendly. Smile if he does but don't laugh. Innocent people are a little nervous, guilty people are "too cool for school". Therefore be nice and attentive but reticent as this will lead them to think you're a good guy. Don't be afraid to ask for clarification or confirmation on instructions. This will make it appear like you are focused on the test.
2. Don't have a clean book. As the saying goes, you have to have a little dirt on you for anyone to trust you. It makes you look human and that's relatable. I wouldn't advocate for saying you've done things you haven't but as you can see, fudging things is the way to go. I think someone who's never experimented with marijuana will be looked at with the closer eye. If you really have not done it, you have two options. Have an explanation, or defer to an equally pointless thing: underage drinking. If you're a young guy you may be able to spin this saying you've always wanted to do this job and knew using a drug could screw you out of the job, so you steered clear and stayed down. That could work. Now if you're an older guy that won't work (if you wanted to do this, why did you wait?). So you will have to defer. Something along the lines of, no I've never used it, closest I have come was underage drinking a bunch of times. Now you are no longer a non-weed smoking robot, but a human who has done some things. Admit to the weak or petty stuff, and come clean that you know now that it was dumb, but hey it happened. The past is the past. Life experience and youthful indiscretions will most likely be forgiven. Oh, and make sure your lies cannot be verified. If you have something documented, that will be found. You can't lie about a domestic violence conviction or DUI. But if you've done cocaine once a couple years ago in a friend's apartment, no one has to know. If you've smoked weed 50 times, say it was like 6 times in high school or college. You get the drift.
3. Control what you can control. Be perfectly still during the test, and use the same tone of voice; calm and smooth, but firm. Don't alter your breathing. Breathe steadily and deeply throughout the entire test. Certain questions may raise your blood pressure involuntarily, but remaining relaxed inside and controlling your breathing will mitigate this. React the same to all questions. If the examiner goes into interrogation mode, go somewhere else in your heard. Listen to what he's saying, not how he's saying it. If you hesitate on any, hesitate slightly on the control lies.
4. "It's not a lie if you believe it." As we learned in Seinfeld from the George character, it holds a lot of weight in reality. You can rationalize just about anything in your head. Commit to your story on your application and stick to it on the pre poly. Keep telling yourself weeks in advance that what you've done is no big deal. Convince yourself that it "doesn't count" and your body will think it's less of a deal when the time comes for the poly. The game you are playing is a mental game. What you can control is all mental. There is a luck component too but you have no say in that aspect.
5. These people are not mind readers or supermen and the poly machine is largely BS. They are mere humans and so is your background investigator. If it can't be corroborated or proven, you have considerable leeway in the info that you divulge. Use that to your advantage and don't be intimidated.
Hope this can spark a conversation as I am sure I have missed some things. Like I said I am stressed about this potential decision. Writing here about this has been a nice blow off of steam to open up. Thank you for reading.
I recently took a poly for a local law enforcement agency. I haven't gotten any official word on it, but I do believe I passed even though I really was not 100% truthful and used no real countermeasures. Here is my experience.
One thing upfront that may make this experience unique is that I really wasn't that invested in the outcome. I felt little pressure because I didn't care all that much about getting the job. I have a (non-LE) job now with very good benefits, retirement, freedoms, and I like my coworkers. Problem is that it's extremely boring and not challenging. Anyway, I was more afraid about passing and having to make a major life decision than failing. This may have helped.
Before the test, I met the officer (I found out via the internet beforehand that he is a member of the state's polygraph examiner association. I thought he would be a dyed in the wool poly believer). He was a nice enough guy throughout the pre poly phase, saying it was his job to get applicants through if we are 100% truthful and work out any issues as long as we are honest. Then I filled out a pre-poly booklet wherein I was supposed to admit to all the dirty things I've done. Well, I admitted to some. Not others. Some I just fudged.
We went over my answers beforehand. No major crimes (true), no domestic abuses/issues with women/kids/etc (all true). I admitted to a petty theft when I was a teen and some very small stealing of office supplies occasionally... pen, paper, etc. These were deemed no big deal, in fact he said he would barely consider the latter stealing since it was such a small scale. I believe he thought that me admitting to these small issues made it look like an honest admission (which they were). I mean, someone who did only this and still feels bad enough to admit it, probably hasn't done anything major. A totally clean book would end up being more suspicious than someone who's done some excusable minor things.
Then, an outright lie: I did visit a prostitute about a year ago (it was pretty fun and in a place in Nevada where it is legal). No one else in my life knows about this. They asked this, of course, and I checked no. When going over it verbally I just glossed over it casually like it was no big deal, treating it no differently than an outrageous one like the murder question.
I fudged the drug use history. Again, for the readers out there, I think a clean book in this section would look suspicious even it was true for you. I have used illegal drugs in the past but I fudged what they were, the number of times, and the last time I used it. I didn't want to admit to using a drug that would auto DQ so I said it was only marijuana. I didn't want to admit how recent it was since i think it was within the time frame of a DQ for that place. So I fudged those things. I made my answers consistent with my other paperwork for this agency.
Then I was connected to the machine and the test began. First he gave me a set of control questions to get a "read" on me. He said that he was able to determine what it looked like when I lied, when I told the truth, and that I could take the rest of the test. I didn't feel any different when I told the truth vs. the control lie question but whatever.
The relevant part of the test consisted of three sets of questions. Each began with a few control questions (along the lines of "Are we currently in the US", etc) followed by some relevant questions repeated over and over. Now, he never went into the specific questions from the pre-poly booklet, only whether or not I planned on being truthful about those things. Then each section ended with a control lie. I thought it was odd that he didn't ask questions from the book. Only things like "Do you plan to tell the truth about theft?" or "Do you intend to be truthful about undetected crimes?" or "Are you going to tell the truth about drug use?" So forth and so on. Obviously as you know now, I didn't plan to tell the truth regarding drug use or sex. When he asked about those, I simply said "Yes" and tried to use the same tone of voice as on the controls and on the ones I was actually honest about. However, I didn't avoid thinking about them. In fact, those things did pop into my head, but I said to myself, is that a big deal? Not really.
I admit to you now, when he was asking the relevant questions, I tried to relax but I could feel my blood pressure rise, and my heart rate go up. But still I think they went up on the controls during that stage too and they went about about the same for each relevant question. Part of me thinks that if you relax too much on the controls, they'll see a sharper reaction on the relevants. My advice there is to appear calm, but inside do not feel too relaxed. If you are nervous during the controls, not bad.
I didn't know it, but the test was over after the third set of relevant question and I stayed seated in the chair as he typed on the computer for some time. His demeanor changed after that. When he was done typing he simply and sternly said the test was over and that he was going to remove the testing equipment, then told me to get my bag and it was time to leave. He walked me out in silence. When we go to the door, he said at the end is when he discusses any issues or questions he has regarding the test and that he had nothing to discuss. He then told me that I'd hear something from another officer (Captain or Chief or someone, I forget), or maybe my background investigator and wished me good luck.
At first i wasn't sure what to make of it. I checked the mail each day for a rejection letter that still hasn't come. Since then, the investigator has been contacting my work references who have probably been giving me glowing endorsements. Would he still be working my background if I failed the poly? That doesn't seem likely. I have not personally heard from my investigator after the poly. So I think I may have gotten over on the poly without really trying. If the investigator follows up with another agency or two that I applied to and was DQ'd for, I may end up cooked anyway as I put that I used another drug besides marijuana on that application or two. So we shall see. I intend to take the prostitute visit to the grave, therefore that cannot be corroborated.
Now that I think I may end up getting an offer, I am under a lot of stress since it is a major life changing decision. I don't know yet if I will accept the offer if I do get it.
Here are my personal, unscientific tips on how I think that I beat it in no particular order:
1. Develop a rapport of trustworthiness with your examiner. If he has it out for you for whatever reason or is doing this with a chip on his shoulder, you will not pass. Do what you can to mitigate this. Be cordial, but not overly friendly. Smile if he does but don't laugh. Innocent people are a little nervous, guilty people are "too cool for school". Therefore be nice and attentive but reticent as this will lead them to think you're a good guy. Don't be afraid to ask for clarification or confirmation on instructions. This will make it appear like you are focused on the test.
2. Don't have a clean book. As the saying goes, you have to have a little dirt on you for anyone to trust you. It makes you look human and that's relatable. I wouldn't advocate for saying you've done things you haven't but as you can see, fudging things is the way to go. I think someone who's never experimented with marijuana will be looked at with the closer eye. If you really have not done it, you have two options. Have an explanation, or defer to an equally pointless thing: underage drinking. If you're a young guy you may be able to spin this saying you've always wanted to do this job and knew using a drug could screw you out of the job, so you steered clear and stayed down. That could work. Now if you're an older guy that won't work (if you wanted to do this, why did you wait?). So you will have to defer. Something along the lines of, no I've never used it, closest I have come was underage drinking a bunch of times. Now you are no longer a non-weed smoking robot, but a human who has done some things. Admit to the weak or petty stuff, and come clean that you know now that it was dumb, but hey it happened. The past is the past. Life experience and youthful indiscretions will most likely be forgiven. Oh, and make sure your lies cannot be verified. If you have something documented, that will be found. You can't lie about a domestic violence conviction or DUI. But if you've done cocaine once a couple years ago in a friend's apartment, no one has to know. If you've smoked weed 50 times, say it was like 6 times in high school or college. You get the drift.
3. Control what you can control. Be perfectly still during the test, and use the same tone of voice; calm and smooth, but firm. Don't alter your breathing. Breathe steadily and deeply throughout the entire test. Certain questions may raise your blood pressure involuntarily, but remaining relaxed inside and controlling your breathing will mitigate this. React the same to all questions. If the examiner goes into interrogation mode, go somewhere else in your heard. Listen to what he's saying, not how he's saying it. If you hesitate on any, hesitate slightly on the control lies.
4. "It's not a lie if you believe it." As we learned in Seinfeld from the George character, it holds a lot of weight in reality. You can rationalize just about anything in your head. Commit to your story on your application and stick to it on the pre poly. Keep telling yourself weeks in advance that what you've done is no big deal. Convince yourself that it "doesn't count" and your body will think it's less of a deal when the time comes for the poly. The game you are playing is a mental game. What you can control is all mental. There is a luck component too but you have no say in that aspect.
5. These people are not mind readers or supermen and the poly machine is largely BS. They are mere humans and so is your background investigator. If it can't be corroborated or proven, you have considerable leeway in the info that you divulge. Use that to your advantage and don't be intimidated.
Hope this can spark a conversation as I am sure I have missed some things. Like I said I am stressed about this potential decision. Writing here about this has been a nice blow off of steam to open up. Thank you for reading.