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Posted by PersecutedInWisconsin
- Dec 20, 2015, 10:12 AMTwo of each, Actually.
Posted by Ex Member
- Dec 18, 2015, 04:23 AMQuoteWith breathing, physical countermeasures, and the honest belief that the poly was/is a farce, I passed.Are you willing to share if this was an avoided false positive or a genuine false negative?
Posted by PersecutedInWisconsin
- Dec 16, 2015, 07:02 PMThank you, George.
In short, people talk, and people brag. If anyone had successfully passed a poly while lying, the news would spread like wildfire in the local offender community. There is a lot that goes on that probation and parole does not know about, in terms of how offenders are 'gaming' the system and getting away with it. These things are readily shared in the offender community. This would be big, big news in that community. Ground-breaking, in fact.
I discovered this site while researching the poly. Once I was told I was mandated to take them, I did the intelligent thing, and decided to learn about them; I believed that they worked, and just wanted to know what to expect. This site was the second or third listing when I typed 'polygraph' into my search engine. I was skeptical, to say the least... until I took my first poly. Everything went just as TLBTLD said it would, and I knew this site was true and correct. With breathing, physical countermeasures, and the honest belief that the poly was/is a farce, I passed.
In short, people talk, and people brag. If anyone had successfully passed a poly while lying, the news would spread like wildfire in the local offender community. There is a lot that goes on that probation and parole does not know about, in terms of how offenders are 'gaming' the system and getting away with it. These things are readily shared in the offender community. This would be big, big news in that community. Ground-breaking, in fact.
I discovered this site while researching the poly. Once I was told I was mandated to take them, I did the intelligent thing, and decided to learn about them; I believed that they worked, and just wanted to know what to expect. This site was the second or third listing when I typed 'polygraph' into my search engine. I was skeptical, to say the least... until I took my first poly. Everything went just as TLBTLD said it would, and I knew this site was true and correct. With breathing, physical countermeasures, and the honest belief that the poly was/is a farce, I passed.
Posted by George W. Maschke
- Dec 16, 2015, 01:46 PMPersecuted in Wisconsin,
Thank you for sharing your polygraph experience and perspective. How did you hear about this site?
I don't fault you for not mentioning this site to others in your situation. For you to do so would put you at risk of being denounced to your probation officer and could result in sanctions.
But why do you assume that the others in your group haven't learned the same things about polygraphy that you have?
Thank you for sharing your polygraph experience and perspective. How did you hear about this site?
I don't fault you for not mentioning this site to others in your situation. For you to do so would put you at risk of being denounced to your probation officer and could result in sanctions.
But why do you assume that the others in your group haven't learned the same things about polygraphy that you have?
Posted by Wandersmann
- Dec 16, 2015, 10:37 AMQuoteMy reason for sharing my story was to provide background for my statement that while the poly is crap, it has good uses occasionally.
I am so sick of this twisted logic. The above statement was pretty much what DNI Clapper said to the stupid senator during his confirmation hearing. When asked about the mountain of innocent poly victims Clapper avoided the subject by referring to the alleged successes that justified the existence of the poly. The senator was too stupid to see through his lack of candor and let the comment stand. Sometimes the polygraph works you say ? So does torture.
Posted by PersecutedInWisconsin
- Dec 16, 2015, 08:43 AMThat wasn't me. Do not attribute things to me that I did not say, please. I am not trying to separate myself from anything or anyone. Facts and logic alone do that. My reason for sharing my story was to provide background for my statement that while the poly is crap, it has good uses occasionally. My reasoning is very sound, and your objective view on the issue doesn't help, because you have no way of being armed with enough of the facts concerning this particular issue to reach an educated conclusion. That is not a 'diss', that is just the way it is. Do you sit next to sex offenders, listen to their stories, know their distortions and such to the point where you can logically conclude that providing them with a means to further their distortions is safe? The people who commit sex offences do so because their minds are screwed up in some fundamental way. Until they decide to fix that, they are a danger. No ifs, ands or buts. Cognitive Behavioral Therapy is the tool needed to fix themselves. By choosing to make decisions that are not good for themselves - i.e., break the rules and risk incarceration, for instance - they are proving that they are still cognitively distorted. The whole of their therapy- and their rules - is based on this premise. You have to practice making the right decisions to continue making the right decisions. To be cognitively distorted, when that is the basis for your sex offense to begin with, is the epitome of being a risk to offend again. Ergo, to give offenders the tools to purposely be cognitively distorted is to allow them to not only prevent themselves from helping themselves, but to put the community at risk. I'm not gonna be responsible for that. Neither should anyone else. Personally, I loathe the system... but I am 100% willing to play dumb to allow others to be safe. My therapist knows this, and we have talked about this in private. Like I said, he knows that I know what I know, and that I choose not to share the information. He also knows why I choose not to share it. I have kids. I don't want someone fantasizing about or touching them. Knowledge is power, like I earlier stated. I am in a position to completely understand both sides of the coin, both as an objective observer, and as someone fully involved in all aspects of what we are discussing. That is why I spoke up in the first place. Cases like mine are few and far between, trust me. Those in therapy, or who have been to prison for sex offenses, go for a reason almost all of the time. The poly needs to be the aforementioned 'billy club' for them, lest they stay in their cycles, and society pays for it. It is an absolutely necessary evil. To boot, most people, let alone people like sex offenders who are cognitively distorted, do not posses the capability to understand completely the lie behind the lie detector. I have seen so many people try to beat the poly with just countermeasures, without having the belief in their heart and soul that the whole thing is a farce. They go in thinking, 'will this work?', and they are still nervous, and they fail - with great legal ramifications - because they don't BELIEVE the truth. You can't teach belief and confidence, and even though these guys don't deserve to get away with lying because of what that means for their treatment, I also don't want to see them go to jail because of failing a 'test' due to trying to cheat it without having the real tools to do so. So, by telling them about countermeasure or about this site, I'd be either letting them stay sick in the head by perpetuating their distortions, thus putting the community at risk, or i'd be sending them to the slammer because I can only teach them about the tools, not how to use them or believe in their application.
Sounds like a lose-lose. And you are comfortable with this, on what moral grounds?
(drops microphone, walks away)
Peace out, yo. 8-)
Sounds like a lose-lose. And you are comfortable with this, on what moral grounds?
(drops microphone, walks away)
Peace out, yo. 8-)
Posted by Aunty Agony
- Dec 15, 2015, 04:41 PMQuote from: PersecutedInWisconsin on Dec 14, 2015, 09:59 AMTwo thingsNeither of which addresses the fundamental hypocrisy of your position on the publication and dissemination of information about the failures and dangers of the polygraph.
Aunty understands your desperate need to distance yourself from "real" sex offenders by any means possible, if only in your own mind, so she will not upset you further with more objective argument.
For anyone else reading this, Aunty wishes only to make this observation: The exposure of a social injustice always elicits two disjoint responses from the people. Group C asks "How can the distance between the oppressors and the oppressed be reduced or eliminated?" Group A asks "How can I avoid being one of the oppressed and become one of the privileged oppressors?"
In the case of oppression via polygraph, PersecutedInWisconsin is satisfied with his membership in group A.
Civilization is advanced only by group C. Aunty likes civilization.
Posted by TruthMan
- Dec 15, 2015, 08:19 AMQuote from: AuntyAgony on Dec 14, 2015, 08:22 PMLet's see if Aunty understands your predicament.
You did not commit any sex offense, you were set up by your wife because she wanted to clear the way for her adultery, and you were betrayed by a judge who would not honor a plea bargain brokered by the DA. Therefore it's okay for you to know that a polygraph test is a dangerous psychological billy club and to know how to pass it even while lying, because you are innocent and have the right to be safeguarded against false positives.
However you are the only person to whom anything like this has ever happened. Everyone else who has been convicted of a sex crime, like you, and must attend a post-conviction treatment program, like you, and wants to live a normal life without the fear of incarceration for doing so, like you, should be deprived of this safeguard because otherwise they will inevitably succumb to the disgusting urges bequeathed on them by a warped evolutionary -
Aunty apologizes for the interruption, but she had to put out a fire. Her hypocrisy meter exploded.
Two things: Judges are not bound by law in wisconsin to honor plea agreements and kudos to the guy not allowing offenders to lie, and thus stay in their cycles. there is the exception, then there is the rule. Cant personally think of any so's over the age of 19 who can say with any authority that sleeping with or sexually touching someone under the age of consent is ok. The rule is that so's in general are psychologically damaged folks who need monitoring until they are proven to be low risk. They are the rule. Persecuted, and teens who sleep with teens, are the exception. Kudos, Persecuted, for using discretion.
Posted by Aunty Agony
- Dec 14, 2015, 08:22 PMLet's see if Aunty understands your predicament.
You did not commit any sex offense, you were set up by your wife because she wanted to clear the way for her adultery, and you were betrayed by a judge who would not honor a plea bargain brokered by the DA. Therefore it's okay for you to know that a polygraph test is a dangerous psychological billy club and to know how to pass it even while lying, because you are innocent and have the right to be safeguarded against false positives.
However you are the only person to whom anything like this has ever happened. Everyone else who has been convicted of a sex crime, like you, and must attend a post-conviction treatment program, like you, and wants to live a normal life without the fear of incarceration for doing so, like you, should be deprived of this safeguard because otherwise they will inevitably succumb to the disgusting urges bequeathed on them by a warped evolutionary -
Aunty apologizes for the interruption, but she had to put out a fire. Her hypocrisy meter exploded.
You did not commit any sex offense, you were set up by your wife because she wanted to clear the way for her adultery, and you were betrayed by a judge who would not honor a plea bargain brokered by the DA. Therefore it's okay for you to know that a polygraph test is a dangerous psychological billy club and to know how to pass it even while lying, because you are innocent and have the right to be safeguarded against false positives.
However you are the only person to whom anything like this has ever happened. Everyone else who has been convicted of a sex crime, like you, and must attend a post-conviction treatment program, like you, and wants to live a normal life without the fear of incarceration for doing so, like you, should be deprived of this safeguard because otherwise they will inevitably succumb to the disgusting urges bequeathed on them by a warped evolutionary -
Aunty apologizes for the interruption, but she had to put out a fire. Her hypocrisy meter exploded.
Posted by Persecuted In Wisconsin
- Dec 14, 2015, 04:39 PMQuote from: Arkhangelsk on Dec 14, 2015, 12:24 PMQuoteTrue pedophiles represent a very minuscule portion of the population of offenders, but the rest of the population who commit offenses do so due to cognitive distortions and such, and never quite rid themselves of these distortions of thinking, leaving themselves at risk for future offenses.I personally don't believe pedophilia to be pathological. Inside all of us are a collection of attributes, evolved over time via natural selection, which has allowed our species to survive. At some point in the distant past, those who were attracted to younger members of their species were probably more successful in passing their DNA onto females who were younger and stronger. However, as social aspects of humanity evolved, so did the idea of taboos. So today, sexual interest or behavior with minors is the modern taboo. Those with a "natural" inclination towards young ones are forced to shamefully internalize these desires. This is where the pathology comes in--the conflict between biological and social evolution. This conflict results in personality disorders and the offender cycle.
The polygraph is used in the sex offender containment triad as a 24 hour tail. They contend that this provides them with a tool to best allocate their limited investigative resources. Treatment professionals state that an offender cannot make progress unless all past sexual behaviors are elucidated and point to the polygraph's efficacy in reaching this goal.
Can an offender successfully employ countermeasures during maintenance polygraphs to complete treatment and later reoffend? If such is possible, then the program depends too much on the polygraph and has not implemented other risk safeguards into their treatment model.
Also, forgive me, but you seem to be minimizing your "rear end grabbing."
I could see the logic in your argument - to a point. Minors of a certain age cannot reproduce, so from a purely biological or evolutionary standpoint, why would someone/anyone try to initiate sexual contact with them? Considering that humans are the only (known) creatures to partake in sexual activity for the pleasure element, it becomes painfully obvious that minors of a certain age are targeted, for a lack of better terms, for other purposes and reasons. For instance, many offenders considered pedophiles openly admit that they identify with children emotionally. Another common thread is that pedophiles often don't have appropriate sexual outlets... many never having had even basic sexual contact with age appropriate people. Children are easy for them to take advantage of, to manipulate to fulfill their want for sexual fulfilment, to satisfy their pleasure centers, NOT for reproductive purposes - so those predisposed to doing so take advantage of who they can. While the need/want for sex is evolutionary and biological, I believe that this only applies towards females with the capability to reproduce. By nature, anything else is purely psychological/pathological. Case in point - Most child sex offenses are committed against females who either appear to be of reproducing age or are showing signs of maturation (8 - 17 years old), which makes your point nicely... but the other victims of child sex abuse - males of any age, or female children under a certain age, are targeted for the reasons I specified. An innate desire to have sex with kids is not biological, and can't be, as it serves absolutely no evolutionary purpose.
In Northwestern Wisconsin, where I reside, the SOT maintenance polygraph program is not a 24 hour tail. By nature, it cannot be because they ask a limited amount of questions on the poly, usually routine stuff like 'you use any drugs?' or 'have sex with anyone?'... rarely, if ever, do they delve into issues relevant to your criminal history or anything treatment related. To boot, it says in the Department of Corrections administrative code that no one can face revocation proceedings based solely on a 'failed' polygraph, meaning that there has to be other 'evidence' of wrong-doing. Even an accusation of wrong-doing coupled with a 'failed' polygraph is not enough to get a person locked up on a PO hold, let alone face revocation proceedings. Group therapy - mandated whether you have successfully completed treatment in an incarcerated setting or not - consists of you and 9 other 'offenders' sitting in a room with a 'counselor', bitching about how hard it is to be a sex offender, with maybe 15 minutes of treatment-related stuff going on. This is over an hour to two hour period, once a week. Assignments are to be done on your own time, whenever you feel like it.
It is hard to be accountable for your behaviors when you can't be held accountable for your behaviors. Polys are a psychological billy club, used to elicit confessions of wrong-doing in the sex offender community. Because of the possible repercussions of not being held accountable for behaviors that may increase risk, I am ok with this.. Yet again, this is why I don't share info with other offenders. If they knew what I knew, or even knew that I knew what I knew...
And for the record, there is no minimization involved in the recounting of my crime. My crime, as it were, would be considered a minor misdemeanor in 48 out of the 50 states. In Wisconsin, the same act is a class C felony, punishable by up to 40 years? I literally grabbed a butt of a post-pubescent minor female,not a stranger to me, and they brought out the whooping stick. No criminal history, mind you, at the age of 35 + when this happened in 2013. They had to bring out the statute book and charge me with something generalized like 'Incest with a Child by a step-parent', for a butt grab? Regardless of the reasoning for the aforementioned butt grab, they went overboard both in their charging and their sentence. When my lawyer and the DA were discussing reducing the charge to 4th-degree sexual assault - a misdemeanor - they legally couldn't do it, because there was no penetration involved or attempted. By Wisconsin law, if they were going to charge me at all, it HAD to be this charge. The reason that the Judge sentenced me to prison time, instead of the agreed upon time served and two years of probation, was because of the 'seriousness of the felony charge'. The DA even said during their statement at sentencing that this was a case of me 'crossing a boundary, and not realizing it'. There was no victim witness statement, because my step-daughter thought it was all B.S.,and to this day is angry at her mother for using her to accomplish her relationship goals.
I don't minimize, but I will call a spade a spade. Wisconsin is also one of a very few states to do bifurcated sentencing, which all the forward thinking states did away with(some 48 of them, mind you).
While polys don't work, in the sense that the science is junk, their intended goal has useful applications in a post-conviction setting.
For the record, my treatment provider knows that I know what I know... and is ok with it. Anyone else would face revocation proceedings for having learned about the truth of polys/countermeasures. In a post conviction setting, I am using this knowledge to assure that I am not subject to scrutiny for a 'failed' polygraph when, in reality, I do nothing that goes toward the potential for increased risk. I have absolutely zero to feel guilty about, and have the right to be safeguarded against false positives.
Consequently, the examiner could ask me if I was the Pope of Antarctica, and I'd 'pass' the question...
Posted by Ex Member
- Dec 14, 2015, 12:24 PMQuoteTrue pedophiles represent a very minuscule portion of the population of offenders, but the rest of the population who commit offenses do so due to cognitive distortions and such, and never quite rid themselves of these distortions of thinking, leaving themselves at risk for future offenses.I personally don't believe pedophilia to be pathological. Inside all of us are a collection of attributes, evolved over time via natural selection, which has allowed our species to survive. At some point in the distant past, those who were attracted to younger members of their species were probably more successful in passing their DNA onto females who were younger and stronger. However, as social aspects of humanity evolved, so did the idea of taboos. So today, sexual interest or behavior with minors is the modern taboo. Those with a "natural" inclination towards young ones are forced to shamefully internalize these desires. This is where the pathology comes in--the conflict between biological and social evolution. This conflict results in personality disorders and the offender cycle.
The polygraph is used in the sex offender containment triad as a 24 hour tail. They contend that this provides them with a tool to best allocate their limited investigative resources. Treatment professionals state that an offender cannot make progress unless all past sexual behaviors are elucidated and point to the polygraph's efficacy in reaching this goal.
Can an offender successfully employ countermeasures during maintenance polygraphs to complete treatment and later reoffend? If such is possible, then the program depends too much on the polygraph and has not implemented other risk safeguards into their treatment model.
Also, forgive me, but you seem to be minimizing your "rear end grabbing."
Posted by PersecutedInWisconsin
- Dec 14, 2015, 09:59 AMLet me tell my story real quick....
I grabbed my step-daughter's rear end, not as a sex act... her, mom told police, police asked me about it, I said that yeah, it happened (I had nothing to hide, I wasn't trying to have sex with her, for goodness sake)... charged with a sex crime - offered a little bit of probation, took it instead of go to trial, but judge freaked out, called me a 'monster', sentenced me to prison - completed treatment (twice), lowest of the lowest 'risk' to re offend, but have to take polys, per standard rules.
Believed the hype, till I heard about this site. Passed every poly since. My worst 'violation' has been using text messages or the internet, both of which had absolutely nothing to do with my supposed 'crime', or add to any 'risk-factors' for anything.
The info on this site has helped me live a normal life without the fear of incarceration for doing so. Not every person charged or convicted of a sexual offense is a monster, or uses the info on this site to circumvent the system in any way that presents a risk or is problematic...
HOWEVER.... having been around sex offenders, the potential exists for this to happen, imho... internet use for some offenders could be problematic - contacting minors, looking at porn which could trigger fantasies or a preoccupation with sex or immediate gratification which could lead to re offense... being able to hide their activities from a PO could lead to problems.. they could even hide new crimes or deviant fantasies from their PO or treatment provider. For these types of reasons, I NEVER, EVER share what I know and use with any other person convicted of a sex offense. True pedophiles represent a very minuscule portion of the population of offenders, but the rest of the population who commit offenses do so due to cognitive distortions and such, and never quite rid themselves of these distortions of thinking, leaving themselves at risk for future offenses. The very act of committing violations, in and of itself, is a continuation of these distortions, and is indicative of their lack of good judgement, which displays an increased risk. Furthermore, if these individuals were able to beat polys, it may make them feel brazen enough to engage in even more riskier behaviors, including but not limited to other offenses.
I personally refuse to be responsible for increasing someone's risk to re offend by teaching them to beat polys or telling them about this site, or even remotely hinting that countermeasures even exist, let alone work. Knowledge is power, but can be a dangerous weapon when and if misused or misapplied.
That is my educated two cents....
For the record, my ex started dating another man one week after my arrest, and announced her 'new' relationship on Facebook the day of my sentencing a few months later. Obviously, I was set up. BTW, we were married for four years, with absolutely no sign that there was any trouble when this all happened... hit me right out of the blue. In Wisconsin, they criminalize EVERYTHING. 17 year old guy, 18 year old girl? SHE'S A SEX OFFENDER. WISCONSIN - come on vacation, leave on probation, come back on revocation..... our (un)official state motto...
I grabbed my step-daughter's rear end, not as a sex act... her, mom told police, police asked me about it, I said that yeah, it happened (I had nothing to hide, I wasn't trying to have sex with her, for goodness sake)... charged with a sex crime - offered a little bit of probation, took it instead of go to trial, but judge freaked out, called me a 'monster', sentenced me to prison - completed treatment (twice), lowest of the lowest 'risk' to re offend, but have to take polys, per standard rules.
Believed the hype, till I heard about this site. Passed every poly since. My worst 'violation' has been using text messages or the internet, both of which had absolutely nothing to do with my supposed 'crime', or add to any 'risk-factors' for anything.
The info on this site has helped me live a normal life without the fear of incarceration for doing so. Not every person charged or convicted of a sexual offense is a monster, or uses the info on this site to circumvent the system in any way that presents a risk or is problematic...
HOWEVER.... having been around sex offenders, the potential exists for this to happen, imho... internet use for some offenders could be problematic - contacting minors, looking at porn which could trigger fantasies or a preoccupation with sex or immediate gratification which could lead to re offense... being able to hide their activities from a PO could lead to problems.. they could even hide new crimes or deviant fantasies from their PO or treatment provider. For these types of reasons, I NEVER, EVER share what I know and use with any other person convicted of a sex offense. True pedophiles represent a very minuscule portion of the population of offenders, but the rest of the population who commit offenses do so due to cognitive distortions and such, and never quite rid themselves of these distortions of thinking, leaving themselves at risk for future offenses. The very act of committing violations, in and of itself, is a continuation of these distortions, and is indicative of their lack of good judgement, which displays an increased risk. Furthermore, if these individuals were able to beat polys, it may make them feel brazen enough to engage in even more riskier behaviors, including but not limited to other offenses.
I personally refuse to be responsible for increasing someone's risk to re offend by teaching them to beat polys or telling them about this site, or even remotely hinting that countermeasures even exist, let alone work. Knowledge is power, but can be a dangerous weapon when and if misused or misapplied.
That is my educated two cents....
For the record, my ex started dating another man one week after my arrest, and announced her 'new' relationship on Facebook the day of my sentencing a few months later. Obviously, I was set up. BTW, we were married for four years, with absolutely no sign that there was any trouble when this all happened... hit me right out of the blue. In Wisconsin, they criminalize EVERYTHING. 17 year old guy, 18 year old girl? SHE'S A SEX OFFENDER. WISCONSIN - come on vacation, leave on probation, come back on revocation..... our (un)official state motto...
Posted by xenonman
- Oct 07, 2015, 01:43 PMQuote from: quickfix on Oct 03, 2015, 04:42 PMQuote from: 4251464954270 on Oct 03, 2015, 03:05 PMYes, no one is entitled to a government job or a security clearance, but the applicant has the right to be rationally evaluated for the position.
That's correct; and the ones who pass their polygraphs are the ones rationally evaluated as "best qualified"Quote from: getrealalready on Oct 03, 2015, 01:54 PMGary Ridgway, the Green River killer, and perhaps the greatest serial killer in American history passed a criminal specific issue polygraph exam in the midst of his continuing to kill--a killing spree reported to involve at least 49 murder victims.
Ridgway is a psychopath, and as competent examiners know, a psychopath should never be administered a polygraph. They are not candidates for valid results.
They make great candidates for employment at the CIA though!
Posted by Aunty Agony
- Oct 06, 2015, 06:30 PMQuote from: quickfix on Oct 06, 2015, 03:16 PMNo one gives a shit what you think.Aunty cannot decide which warms her cockles more: hearing her work described as a gem, or making quickfix cry.
Posted by Wandersmann
- Oct 06, 2015, 05:43 PMQuote from: quickfix on Oct 06, 2015, 03:16 PMNo one gives a shit what you think.
Another ad hominem attack. You're a real class act.