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A forum for free and open discussion of polygraph-related topics
Posted by Ex Member
- Jul 22, 2015, 01:50 PMI understand how you feel. But, you must ask yourself if this is the hill you want to die on. Moral victories do feel good and have their place especially if one feels besmirched and cannot let the matter go without some kind of justice. But, you need to take step back and determine what is important to you. The moral victory may just throw the baby out with the bath water; I don't think future job applications from George Maschke would be met with warm enthusiasm from federal agencies.
Posted by bulletproof_chris
- Jul 22, 2015, 01:19 PMI did tell him the CD arrived broken. I guess that's why he told me to "include an envelope of your choosing". He underlined "your". I'd still like to pursue this. I'm tired of being wronged all the time and just rolling over.
Posted by Ex Member
- Jul 20, 2015, 04:00 PMBullet Proof Chris,
Did you tell him that the first CD arrived broken? He should provide another copy free of charge. From what was written, I suspect the only thing on the CD was a copy of the video and audio recording. Honestly, I don't think you are going to get the actual polygraph charts. Unless you have deep pockets, I suggest letting the matter go and trying again with another outfit.
Did you tell him that the first CD arrived broken? He should provide another copy free of charge. From what was written, I suspect the only thing on the CD was a copy of the video and audio recording. Honestly, I don't think you are going to get the actual polygraph charts. Unless you have deep pockets, I suggest letting the matter go and trying again with another outfit.
Posted by bulletproof_chris
- Jul 20, 2015, 11:22 AMI finally got a letter back from the examiner following my request for: All pages of al documents bearing my signature, a copy of the examiner's license, polygraphic charts for all 3 tests, list of questions asked and answers provided, electronic recording of examination.
His reply was:
"Per polygraph regulations 5.4, I am required to make available a copy of any recordings, which I have sent you, and not charge more than $25. If you would like a 2nd copy, please send a check for $25 plus a self-addressed + postage paid envelope of your choice to send it in.
Per polygraph regulations, you are entitled to a copy of my report, which I have already sent you. You are not entitled to any other document, charts or a copy of my license."
As for the lawyer I consulted with, he had very little knowledge of polygraphs but said he would be looking into past cases and such.
So I'm supposed to fork over another $25 and not even get the most crucial part of the test??? What keeps these guys in check then? I'm filing a complaint with the licensing board now but if the regulation doesn't require him to give me the charts (but it does require him to keep them on file) then who can check up on him?
His reply was:
"Per polygraph regulations 5.4, I am required to make available a copy of any recordings, which I have sent you, and not charge more than $25. If you would like a 2nd copy, please send a check for $25 plus a self-addressed + postage paid envelope of your choice to send it in.
Per polygraph regulations, you are entitled to a copy of my report, which I have already sent you. You are not entitled to any other document, charts or a copy of my license."
As for the lawyer I consulted with, he had very little knowledge of polygraphs but said he would be looking into past cases and such.
So I'm supposed to fork over another $25 and not even get the most crucial part of the test??? What keeps these guys in check then? I'm filing a complaint with the licensing board now but if the regulation doesn't require him to give me the charts (but it does require him to keep them on file) then who can check up on him?
Posted by Ex Member
- Jul 10, 2015, 10:10 AMQuote from: ckwaters on Jul 10, 2015, 07:59 AMI watched that YouTube video. So someone went to jail for "obstruction of justice" over teaching people how to beat a polygraph.
Yes, it seems like a waste of tax payer money since Mr. DeBow states in the video that countermeasures are "antiquated" and that polygraph examiners are trained to detect them.
Posted by Ex Member
- Jul 10, 2015, 09:58 AMQuote from: ckwaters on Jul 10, 2015, 08:07 AMI remember breaking a CD before though, it had to be bent past 90°I had thought the same thing, but George justly put the brakes on my scandalous thinking. It is possible for that damage to occur if the CD was simply put into an envelope rather than a CD mailer. Mail is machine sorted, so it is possible that it could have gotten crunched. Also, this fellow is the director of a polygraph school, so I will give him the benefit of the doubt regarding professional integrity until proven otherwise.
Posted by Dan Mangan
- Jul 10, 2015, 08:53 AMbullet_proof chris, don't show up in person. I suggest you get an attorney to pressure the examiner to fork over the file. It would be worth the couple of hundred bucks it might cost.
FYI, some polygraph indu$try apologists like to compare the accuracy of the "test" to that of certain medical tests, such as mammography. (Absurd, I know.)
It would be unheard of for a doctor or hospital to refuse to release their test data in order for the patient to obtain a second opinion on what was originally filmed, measured, scanned or otherwise tested.
Polygraph should be no different.
FYI, some polygraph indu$try apologists like to compare the accuracy of the "test" to that of certain medical tests, such as mammography. (Absurd, I know.)
It would be unheard of for a doctor or hospital to refuse to release their test data in order for the patient to obtain a second opinion on what was originally filmed, measured, scanned or otherwise tested.
Polygraph should be no different.
Posted by bulletproof_chris
- Jul 10, 2015, 08:07 AMI wish I could read that CD. It isn't blank, I checked. It has some data written to it. I remember breaking a CD before though, it had to be bent past 90°
I've been trying to handle this over the phone and through the mail. I feel like going there and asking for the records in person might be a bad idea. The guy seems like a loose cannon
I've been trying to handle this over the phone and through the mail. I feel like going there and asking for the records in person might be a bad idea. The guy seems like a loose cannon
Posted by bulletproof_chris
- Jul 10, 2015, 07:59 AMI watched that YouTube video. So someone went to jail for "obstruction of justice" over teaching people how to beat a polygraph. They should call that obstruction of punishment. Punishment is only a small part of the definition for justice. I would say "fairness" is a synonym for justice while punishment is not.
It's not JUST that an untrue negative picture was painted of me to my employer in the name of science. The examiner didn't like my personality and tried his best to fail me, concluding that I was deceptive when I wasn't. I call that an obstruction of justice. He wanted to find a lie that wasn't there!
It's not JUST that an untrue negative picture was painted of me to my employer in the name of science. The examiner didn't like my personality and tried his best to fail me, concluding that I was deceptive when I wasn't. I call that an obstruction of justice. He wanted to find a lie that wasn't there!
Posted by Ex Member
- Jul 10, 2015, 12:19 AMQuote from: ckwaters on Jul 09, 2015, 04:14 PMI don't have the charts but I hope that's something I'm supposed to be getting.Polygraph charts are normally kept contained within carefully guarded boundaries.
Posted by Dan Mangan
- Jul 09, 2015, 07:25 PMbulletproof_chris, it may interest you to know that I, as a candidate for American Polygraph Association president-elect, have been pushing for an examinee bill of rights that would put an end to this kind of BULLSHIT.
I suggest you get an attorney to pressure DeBow to provide you a serviceable copy of his *complete* exam, to include charts, notes, questions sets, examiner worksheet, scores (manual and computerized), consent forms, and, most important, any recordings.
I'll gladly do a QA review at no charge to help determine if there are any actionable elements of abuse, incompetence or malfeasance.
It's time for the polygraph "profe$$ion" to stop looking the other way when this kind of thing happens.
My prediction: The materials that you seek will be either become somehow compromised or otherwise unavailable.
That's how the game is often played, in my experience.
Of course, the examiner in this case may prove me wrong.
But if what you claim is true, I doubt it.
I suggest you get an attorney to pressure DeBow to provide you a serviceable copy of his *complete* exam, to include charts, notes, questions sets, examiner worksheet, scores (manual and computerized), consent forms, and, most important, any recordings.
I'll gladly do a QA review at no charge to help determine if there are any actionable elements of abuse, incompetence or malfeasance.
It's time for the polygraph "profe$$ion" to stop looking the other way when this kind of thing happens.
My prediction: The materials that you seek will be either become somehow compromised or otherwise unavailable.
That's how the game is often played, in my experience.
Of course, the examiner in this case may prove me wrong.
But if what you claim is true, I doubt it.
Posted by Evan S
- Jul 09, 2015, 04:47 PMPolygrapher Darryl DeBow discusses countermeasures on the following YouTube video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svd8w29ZAsQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svd8w29ZAsQ
Posted by bulletproof_chris
- Jul 09, 2015, 04:14 PMHis name is Darryl DeBow. I received the report and broken CD yesterday. Called him right away and left a message, tried back a few more times and nothing. I'm being avoided or he's on vacation. I don't have the charts but I hope that's something I'm supposed to be getting. Without that I just have his opinions and I can listen to my scared weak voice over and over taking that horrible test.
I mailed him a request for all docuents bearing my signature, a copy of his license and charts for a 3 sessions of questions. I'll resend it certified first chance I get, I just wanted to get it in the mailbox as soon as possible today.
Thanks Evan, first time though. I wish I knew. I figured I have nothing to hide so....
I mailed him a request for all docuents bearing my signature, a copy of his license and charts for a 3 sessions of questions. I'll resend it certified first chance I get, I just wanted to get it in the mailbox as soon as possible today.
Thanks Evan, first time though. I wish I knew. I figured I have nothing to hide so....
Posted by Evan S
- Jul 09, 2015, 02:52 PMbulletproof_chris:
Post the name of your polygrapher. If you do not feel comfortable doing this, then PM his name, polygraph audio and charts to the admin of this website. Perhaps Dan Mangan (and the other polygraphers) will score your charts free of charge.
Incidentally, if I were in your shoes, I would have immediately terminated the polygraph upon hearing obscenities ("If you do any of that crap they teach you on the internet I'll stop the exam right away.").
Regards, Evan S
Post the name of your polygrapher. If you do not feel comfortable doing this, then PM his name, polygraph audio and charts to the admin of this website. Perhaps Dan Mangan (and the other polygraphers) will score your charts free of charge.
Incidentally, if I were in your shoes, I would have immediately terminated the polygraph upon hearing obscenities ("If you do any of that crap they teach you on the internet I'll stop the exam right away.").
Regards, Evan S
Posted by George W. Maschke
- Jul 09, 2015, 01:34 PMQuote from: Arkhangelsk on Jul 09, 2015, 12:42 PMQuote from: ckwaters on Jul 09, 2015, 11:05 AMI received the "polygraph report" in the mail along with a shattered CD rom
Try to shatter a CD some time, it's not easy and certainly wouldn't happen in the mail.
It is indeed hard to shatter a CD. But I can envisage how it could possibly happen in the mail, if sent in a paper envelope. There is a special kind of strong cardboard envelope for mailing CDs. If such an envelope were used, then I would indeed be surprised that a CD might break in transit.
In any event, I think that bulletproof_chris' polygrapher ought to send him a replacement CD, or make the recording available to download, at no additional cost.