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A forum for free and open discussion of polygraph-related topics
Posted by Altaf Noor Ali
- Mar 22, 2011, 07:02 AM
Dear George:I am back after a very long time, but I am glad to be here.
First of all my thanks to you for your sincere interest.
Responding to your question, the "test" was conducted through a laptop placed infront of Pankhaj (Mumtaz was sitting next to him), one of the dirty half-dozen who was there. I never met Pankhaj before but he said he was an emirates employee.
I also agree with you that it may have been possibly a complete "hoax", emirates having denied having conducted such test ever in its written response and the witness. But even if it was, I was completely terrorised that day. It was like somebody holding a gun on me, who tells me to get ready to die, fires with a bang, and says: "well, how do you like a prank!"
By the way, no consolation for me, but Ms. Mumtaz was found involved in a fraud and was jailed in Dubai for seven years. That was around 2003.
The update on the civil case filed by me is that emirates is running away from facing the court. Unfortunately our legal system is not strong enough to bring such tactics to an end.
However, by now they clearly know they are into this with me and the day of reckoning is not far away.
Sincerely,
Altaf Noor Ali
Posted by 1904
- Jun 13, 2007, 11:40 AMDoes anyone know, or want to know, how to screw with a CVSA examiner
prior to the test?
Questions that you could pose to him. See if he knows his stuff.
See if he can squirm out of the BS.
Ask Me.
prior to the test?
Questions that you could pose to him. See if he knows his stuff.
See if he can squirm out of the BS.
Ask Me.
Posted by 1904
- Jun 13, 2007, 11:07 AMQuote from: cesium_133 on Aug 14, 2006, 04:20 AMI found this CVSA site that ballyhoos its efficacy:
http://www.cvsa1.com/cases_solved.php
I want to see evidence that this microtremor in the larynx even consistently exists under given conditions...
In fact, 'microtremor' exists in the entire body. As your heart pumps blood throughout the body with a more or less constant rhythm, the entire body is in constnat microtremor - which affects all muscle groups, both voluntary and involuntary. The onset of the F or F response changes the natural or normal tremor - it slows down. The change in microtremor affects the involuntary, or smooth muscles surrounding the larynx. The knock-on effect is that the voice wave during F/F is emitted at a lower frequency. The voice wave is captured as a spectograph and converted by means of the Mcquiston / Ford
algorithm into a readable and scorable graph. Does it detect stress - Yes. Does that stress have a direct correlation to Lying - No.
Just more BSBB Technology. ( BS Baffles Brains )
Posted by cesium_133
- Aug 14, 2006, 04:20 AMI found this CVSA site that ballyhoos its efficacy:
http://www.cvsa1.com/cases_solved.php
I read the first dozen or so testimonials, and they all have one thing in common:
Post-test interrogation solved the crime, not the results per se of the VSA. It's the same as the lie detector. Every person who submitted and later confessed did so because of direct post-test questioning.
The charts? Well, I saw no drawn-out, systematically explained readings. All it kept saying was that "the subject was shown the charts and interrogated, and eventually confessed." Some cases even threw in the fact that people who had confessed had previously been inconclusive on the poly, an irrelevant statement and one probably designed to sell the VSA.
This makes me wonder: every one of those people, guilty and innocent, may have "passed". Just like the poly, though, they could all be shown the readouts, told that they indicated deception, and grilled. The guilty confessed and are now immortalized on the site. I didn't see any endings where the interrogation yielded an innocent person, but then I didn't read every statement
I do think that for every "success story", though, there's at least one where the whole process failed.
This snowjob seems even more egregious in its lunacy than the poly. One reading, the voice, says you're truthful or dishonest? Get real. I want to see evidence that this microtremor in the larynx even consistently exists under given conditions...
http://www.cvsa1.com/cases_solved.php
I read the first dozen or so testimonials, and they all have one thing in common:
Post-test interrogation solved the crime, not the results per se of the VSA. It's the same as the lie detector. Every person who submitted and later confessed did so because of direct post-test questioning.
The charts? Well, I saw no drawn-out, systematically explained readings. All it kept saying was that "the subject was shown the charts and interrogated, and eventually confessed." Some cases even threw in the fact that people who had confessed had previously been inconclusive on the poly, an irrelevant statement and one probably designed to sell the VSA.
This makes me wonder: every one of those people, guilty and innocent, may have "passed". Just like the poly, though, they could all be shown the readouts, told that they indicated deception, and grilled. The guilty confessed and are now immortalized on the site. I didn't see any endings where the interrogation yielded an innocent person, but then I didn't read every statement
I do think that for every "success story", though, there's at least one where the whole process failed.This snowjob seems even more egregious in its lunacy than the poly. One reading, the voice, says you're truthful or dishonest? Get real. I want to see evidence that this microtremor in the larynx even consistently exists under given conditions...
Posted by George W. Maschke
- Apr 20, 2002, 07:40 AMAltaf,
Who actually conducted this CVSA "test?" Was it done by an employee of the government of Dubai, or by Emirates Airlines?
I'm curious because the company that peddles CVSA, the "National Institute of Truth Verification," purports to sell the devices only to law enforcement agencies. And the page listing "Agencies Using the CVSA" includes no agency in the United Arab Emirates.
Considering that you were not allowed to see the computer screen, it's plausible that the whole "test" was an elaborate hoax (which is not to say that there is such a thing as a valid CVSA "test"), and that Ms. Mumtaz did not even possess an actual CVSA device.
Who actually conducted this CVSA "test?" Was it done by an employee of the government of Dubai, or by Emirates Airlines?
I'm curious because the company that peddles CVSA, the "National Institute of Truth Verification," purports to sell the devices only to law enforcement agencies. And the page listing "Agencies Using the CVSA" includes no agency in the United Arab Emirates.
Considering that you were not allowed to see the computer screen, it's plausible that the whole "test" was an elaborate hoax (which is not to say that there is such a thing as a valid CVSA "test"), and that Ms. Mumtaz did not even possess an actual CVSA device.
Posted by altafnoor
- Apr 18, 2002, 05:24 PM Dear Mr. George,My sincere apologies for responding so late to your message.
Actually it was a CVSA. They placed a mike in front of me, attached to a laptop.
I was not allowed to have a look at the screen but I was told that the recording will be send to some laboratory in USA.
At the end of the test, Ms. Mumtaz who was supervising the whole episode invited Joshua and Heidi to look at the screen.
And all of them thoughtfully nodded their heads as if the screen was their God. I believe the whole thing was to intimidate me.
I have full faith in God and I believe that the day Dubai Government (Public Prosecution) will awaken to what happened to me, all of the dirty six guys who made me go through this terrible experiment for their pleasure will be in jail.
Best regards,
Altaf Noor Ali.
Posted by George W. Maschke
- May 02, 2001, 11:01 AMDear Mr. Noor Ali,
Was your lie detector "test" conducted with a polygraph instrument or a voice stress analyzer? While both devices are commonly referred to as "lie detectors," they are different, and the terms "polygraph" and "CVSA" (Computer Voice Stress Analyzer) are not interchangeable.
Was your lie detector "test" conducted with a polygraph instrument or a voice stress analyzer? While both devices are commonly referred to as "lie detectors," they are different, and the terms "polygraph" and "CVSA" (Computer Voice Stress Analyzer) are not interchangeable.
Posted by altafnoorali
- May 01, 2001, 09:56 PM16 February 2001.
Senator Orrin G. Hatch, Chairman, US Senate Committee on the Judiciary.
I was employed by Emirates Airline as Finance &
Administration Manger-Pakistan, based in Karachi.
In October 2000, I was called to Dubai to discuss certain allegations against myself that came to the knowledge of my functional supervisor without being provided with details of these allegations.
When I arrived in Dubai, I was intimidated, humilated, harrassed and mentally tortured by called upon to take an unannounced polygraph
(lie-detector) test to prove my innocence, which under the circumstances I did. Throughout the proceedings I was made a subject of unbridled hatred of those who were interrogating me. I was dumped with wrongful and unsubstantiated allegations. At the end of the proceedings, I was suspended (which I believe was predetermined) and restriction placed on my going back to Pakistan. Hence I was effectively confined to Dubai.
I was allowed to come back to Pakistan only when I received the news that my daughter was not well and my family wanted me to be back at the earliest
opportunity. I was reluctantly allowed to come back to Pakistan on the condition that I will assume voluntary solitary confinement.
On the second occassion, again in October 2000, I was called to Dubai again. Meanwhile I came to know that my direct supervisor, who was not there at earlier proceedings, was instructed to break open my office and search every paper. A round the clock security arrangement was made to man my office. I was as shocked as my team on why all this was happening.
On my way to Dubai on 24 Oct 2000, I was happy that this ordeal will finally come to an end because I felt that for an impartial person, it would not be difficult to conclude that whatever happened to me was based on some kind of misunderstanding. However I was in for a shock when told that I should either resign or will be dismissed from the service and I have five minutes to decide.
I opted to be dismissed and was handed over a so-called dismissal order.
As I came out of the office, I thought that before I go for the appeal, the matter (of calling me to Dubai on vague pretences, unlawful and unannounced
interrogation through polygraph, my confinement in Dubai and unfair dismissal) should be reported to the Dubai Police as well.
In the next few days, I prepared two plaints, one for submission to Dubai Police and the other for GMD and after submission came back to Pakistan. In
my submission to Dubai Police, I prayed that police investigations should be initiated for I have been subjected to unlawful conduct. To GMD, I appealed for the stay of the decision and proper investigations. I warranted his attention to the fact that the Disciplinary Procedure of the
Company was not followed in deciding my fate.
In November 2000 I got a short letter from Chief Director, Finance stating that my appeal has been rejected for not providing any new evidence in my
favor when I had no access to any records.
Not having any other option, in January 2001, I filed a suit in Sindh High Court, Pakistan for wrongful dismissal and damages of Pakistan Rupees 160 million.
Also in January 2001, I received a communication from Dubai Police, after three months of vigorous followup, that they have been instructed to direct
me to the public prosecution to pursue my inquiry.
Finally on 4 April 2000 I was able to get the whole thing translated in Arabic and send it to Attorney General Dubai, no reply yet.
Meanwhile I am painfully aware of the fact that the suits filed in Pakistan almost take an eternity to be decided, which I belive is something the
other party is betting on. (The latest as of today 1 May 2000 is that Emirates filed its reply, on my website, and requested to Court to obtain from me a list of documents on which I have relied in filing the case).
To all communications to date for support, I have received a cute responses stating that the best course for me is to get legal advise locally, which I am already doing.
My financial situation on the other hand is deteriorating by day. I have not been paid anything by Emirates for last five months. Additional toll taken by legal expenses.
This whole affair has taken an equal toll on my relationships. Frankly I feel more comfortable in not facing any acquintance. My position as Finance
& Administration Manager of Emirates Airline was quite high profile and my business associates must be having assumed notions about my sudden absence
and the story can just go on...
No response to date!
Senator Orrin G. Hatch, Chairman, US Senate Committee on the Judiciary.
I was employed by Emirates Airline as Finance &
Administration Manger-Pakistan, based in Karachi.
In October 2000, I was called to Dubai to discuss certain allegations against myself that came to the knowledge of my functional supervisor without being provided with details of these allegations.
When I arrived in Dubai, I was intimidated, humilated, harrassed and mentally tortured by called upon to take an unannounced polygraph
(lie-detector) test to prove my innocence, which under the circumstances I did. Throughout the proceedings I was made a subject of unbridled hatred of those who were interrogating me. I was dumped with wrongful and unsubstantiated allegations. At the end of the proceedings, I was suspended (which I believe was predetermined) and restriction placed on my going back to Pakistan. Hence I was effectively confined to Dubai.
I was allowed to come back to Pakistan only when I received the news that my daughter was not well and my family wanted me to be back at the earliest
opportunity. I was reluctantly allowed to come back to Pakistan on the condition that I will assume voluntary solitary confinement.
On the second occassion, again in October 2000, I was called to Dubai again. Meanwhile I came to know that my direct supervisor, who was not there at earlier proceedings, was instructed to break open my office and search every paper. A round the clock security arrangement was made to man my office. I was as shocked as my team on why all this was happening.
On my way to Dubai on 24 Oct 2000, I was happy that this ordeal will finally come to an end because I felt that for an impartial person, it would not be difficult to conclude that whatever happened to me was based on some kind of misunderstanding. However I was in for a shock when told that I should either resign or will be dismissed from the service and I have five minutes to decide.
I opted to be dismissed and was handed over a so-called dismissal order.
As I came out of the office, I thought that before I go for the appeal, the matter (of calling me to Dubai on vague pretences, unlawful and unannounced
interrogation through polygraph, my confinement in Dubai and unfair dismissal) should be reported to the Dubai Police as well.
In the next few days, I prepared two plaints, one for submission to Dubai Police and the other for GMD and after submission came back to Pakistan. In
my submission to Dubai Police, I prayed that police investigations should be initiated for I have been subjected to unlawful conduct. To GMD, I appealed for the stay of the decision and proper investigations. I warranted his attention to the fact that the Disciplinary Procedure of the
Company was not followed in deciding my fate.
In November 2000 I got a short letter from Chief Director, Finance stating that my appeal has been rejected for not providing any new evidence in my
favor when I had no access to any records.
Not having any other option, in January 2001, I filed a suit in Sindh High Court, Pakistan for wrongful dismissal and damages of Pakistan Rupees 160 million.
Also in January 2001, I received a communication from Dubai Police, after three months of vigorous followup, that they have been instructed to direct
me to the public prosecution to pursue my inquiry.
Finally on 4 April 2000 I was able to get the whole thing translated in Arabic and send it to Attorney General Dubai, no reply yet.
Meanwhile I am painfully aware of the fact that the suits filed in Pakistan almost take an eternity to be decided, which I belive is something the
other party is betting on. (The latest as of today 1 May 2000 is that Emirates filed its reply, on my website, and requested to Court to obtain from me a list of documents on which I have relied in filing the case).
To all communications to date for support, I have received a cute responses stating that the best course for me is to get legal advise locally, which I am already doing.
My financial situation on the other hand is deteriorating by day. I have not been paid anything by Emirates for last five months. Additional toll taken by legal expenses.
This whole affair has taken an equal toll on my relationships. Frankly I feel more comfortable in not facing any acquintance. My position as Finance
& Administration Manager of Emirates Airline was quite high profile and my business associates must be having assumed notions about my sudden absence
and the story can just go on...
No response to date!