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Posted by Katelyn Sack
 - Dec 05, 2009, 03:46 PM
Googling incest false reporting rate turns up a dozen-odd sources.

Googling logical fallacies might also be helpful, if what you want is information. 

But if what you want is to crash someone else's social networking support space under a cloak of anonymity to engage in ignorant, petty oneupsmanship, then you're winning.  I have a gold medal in my desk just for you, if you'll give me your name and address. 

If you're ashamed to post your name here, maybe that should tell you something about your conduct. 
Posted by pailryder
 - Dec 05, 2009, 10:51 AM
Quote from: KSack0 on Dec 03, 2009, 06:46 PMEstimated false reporting rates for incest are about what they are for all other crimes:less than 10%.

Katelyn
An interesting stat.  Could you provide the source?

As an aside, I have that score as 3-0, Sergeant 1107 pitching a shutout thru three innings.
Posted by George W. Maschke
 - Dec 03, 2009, 09:00 PM
Quote from: KSack0 on Dec 03, 2009, 06:46 PMGeorge:With all due respect, I do not think an Internet message board is the appropriate place for someone to post the evidence in an ongoing criminal matter....

But Sarah came here seeking advice. Based on the information provided in her post, I'm unable to draw any conclusion regarding whether her sheriff's department in fact unduly relied on polygraph results to prematurely terminate a criminal investigation, or whether the polygraph was merely used as an interrogational ruse (as it often is) in a case where absent a confession, probable cause for an arrest did not exist.
Posted by Katelyn Sack
 - Dec 03, 2009, 06:46 PM
George:  With all due respect, I do not think an Internet message board is the appropriate place for someone to post the evidence in an ongoing criminal matter.  Unless the alleged abuser has died or legally severed ties, he maintains access to the alleged victim as the parent of a minor -- so this remains an ongoing criminal matter regardless of the status of any particular report.  Estimated false reporting rates for incest are about what they are for all other crimes:  less than 10%. 

Among other reasons it is my position that asking for evidence in this forum is not the best way to go: it puts the burden of assessing what is and is not evidence on Sarah.  Incontinence in a child who had been potty-trained:  is this evidence?  Medical exam details that may not belong in the public domain:  is she supposed to disclose these in response to your question to prove that they exist, or defend her choice to possibly not subject a young child to an intrusive exam?  How does asking herself these questions help her or her daughter? 

The burden that's already on Sarah is burden enough.  That's the responsibility to figure out what the best interests of the child are, what her goals are in light of those interests, and how to meet them.  That means assessing a broad range of criminal and civil options, and discussing ways to implement the preferred ones, with the help of a local victim advocate.  National and regional organizations and FBI victim-witness offices have that contact info, or she could walk into her local DA's office (where victim-witness specialists in most states are also housed).  Some firms specialize in victim advocacy within the criminal and civil systems, and the same organizations (NSVRC, RAINN, not FBI) make those referrals. 

Of course that is just my two cents.  I'm sure your intent is good, and only Sarah knows what's best for Sarah. 
Posted by Sergeant1107
 - Dec 03, 2009, 01:39 PM

Quote from: KSack0 on Dec 03, 2009, 10:11 AMMisuse of anecdotal evidence (aka "the person who" fallacy) is one logical fallacy your posts continue to commit. 

I think you are mixing up your terms.  A logical fallacy is a mistaken conclusion reached via incorrect reasoning.  When one person posts an opinion (e.g. - "They look for the easy way out - cops like to close cases as fast as they can for promotion points, and cases like yours don't close fast.") it is not a logical fallacy to respond with my own opinion.  You obviously disagree with my opinion, but that does mean that my opinion was reached through illogical or flawed reasoning.


Quote from: KSack0 on Dec 03, 2009, 10:11 AMIt was the arrest rate, not the clearance rate, that was at issue.  We're not playing change the metric. 
The quote to which I was referring was this: "They look for the easy way out - cops like to close cases as fast as they can for promotion points, and cases like yours don't close fast."  Closing a case is synonymous with clearing a case.  Cases can be closed in a variety of ways, only one of which is via arrest.


Quote from: KSack0 on Dec 03, 2009, 10:11 AM"Compelling physical evidence" is defined differently by the scientific community than by the law enforcement community.  That's the issue.
 

The issue I was addressing was the original poster's assertion that cops don't work hard on sexual assault and domestic violence cases because they prefer to close cases quickly in order to get promoted.  I believe you are correct in that the scientific community has a different idea of what is and what is not compelling physical evidence, but that really has little to do with the police.  Legislators make the laws, including those laws that define evidence.  For anyone who believes those laws are somehow lacking, that issue should be properly taken up with the legislature, not with the police.


Quote from: KSack0 on Dec 03, 2009, 10:11 AMThose stupid witnesses just can't do their jobs, and that's why police don't do theirs!  I don't think so. 

I never said (nor do I think) that victims or witnesses of violent crimes are stupid.  Inability to recall relevant details after a physically violent, traumatic experience has little to do with intelligence.  It is, however, a very likely possibility for both victims and witnesses. 

Your post is actually a good example of a straw man argument, unlike my post you already misidentified as a straw man.  In your post you alter my assertion (that victims of violent crimes often make poor witnesses) into an indefensible declaration that "witnesses are stupid."  It is easier to refute the "straw man" argument that witnesses are stupid than it is to refute the fact that victims of violent crimes often make poor witnesses because of the trauma they have suffered.



Quote from: KSack0 on Dec 03, 2009, 10:11 AMAsserting that domestic violence victims should not be arrested is obviously distinct from asking that laws against interpersonal violence be enforced. 

I agree.  However, my point was that over the past two decades the majority of complaints brought by women's shelters and victim advocates has not been that cops are refusing to make arrests in domestic violence cases; it is that women were being arrested (along with their domestic partners) in cases where the woman claims she was only defending herself.  Since the OP made an assertion that the former was the case ("They look for the easy way out - cops like to close cases as fast as they can for promotion points, and cases like yours don't close fast.") it was relevant and appropriate for me to post that information.



Quote from: KSack0 on Dec 03, 2009, 10:11 AMAre you in possession of the evidence in this case?  If not, your statement lacks factual basis and has the potential to hurt a victim who has come here for support.

I am not in possession of the facts in this case.  I was simply posting my opinion that, since it is in fact illegal for a police officer with probable cause to believe a crime was committed in a domestic violence case to fail to make an arrest, I feel quite comfortable stating that there obviously was not sufficient probable cause in this case or there would have been an arrest.

I don't see how it could hurt a victim to tell them there was insufficient probable cause to make an arrest.  It seems far more likely to cause emotional turmoil in a victim if you lead them to believe that the suspect would have been arrested but for that suspect's ability to lie successfully to the polygraph operator.  I think my assertion, that there was obviously insufficient probable cause to make an arrest before the polygraph, will actually comfort the victim to a greater degree because now she knows that the lack of arrest has nothing at all to do with passing or failing a "test" on a debunked piece of pseudoscientific equipment.


Quote from: KSack0 on Dec 03, 2009, 10:11 AM
Straw-man strikes again.  Did you miss the part where I pointed out that it doesn't take individual abuses (although they may happen) for the systematic abuse of bad forensic tools, and bad logic, to have aggregate discriminatory and unjust effects?  I'm not going to argue with you about whether or not cops hate child molesters and terrorists – seriously. 

Once again, this is not a straw man argument.  The post to which I was responding asserted that: "They look for the easy way out - cops like to close cases as fast as they can for promotion points, and cases like yours don't close fast."  I provided my opinion as to why I know that to be untrue, and then provided some examples as to why that is simply not the way cops think.  One such example was that it is a violation of state law to fail to act when there is probable cause to make an arrest, which makes it unlikely cops are going to fail to make an arrest in order to get promoted.  Another example was that cops have children, too, and feel just as terrible as the rest of civilized society when someone's child is molested or attacked.  Because of that cops will put in tremendous effort towards building a case and making an arrest when a child is molested, which also goes to refute the OP's assertion that the opposite is true because cops are more concerned about clearing cases than they are with prosecuting child molesters.

Posted by George W. Maschke
 - Dec 03, 2009, 01:03 PM
Quote from: 6B796A7970180 on Nov 24, 2009, 01:12 PMDo you think there is any use in copying these articles and giving them to the local sheriff or would that just antagonize him further?

Sarah,

I do not think there is any harm in your bringing the information available on this website to the attention of your sheriff's department.

With regard to this matter, apart from your daughter's statements, what evidence is there that her father "severely molested" her?
Posted by Katelyn Sack
 - Dec 03, 2009, 10:11 AM
<<I was simply responding to a post.  The OP was making a statement that I, in my 23 years of law enforcement experience, have found to be untrue.  It is hardly a logical fallacy to refute an opinion with an opinion.>>

Misuse of anecdotal evidence (aka "the person who" fallacy) is one logical fallacy your posts continue to commit. 

<<The inference here is, of course, that the low clearance rate for sexual assaults is because the police put little effort into clearing such cases.  That is simply not the case.>>

It was the arrest rate, not the clearance rate, that was at issue.  We're not playing change the metric. 

<<Clearance rates for sexual assaults are generally lower than for those of other violent crimes because there is often a lack of compelling physical evidence.  Many cases are >>

"Compelling physical evidence" is defined differently by the scientific community than by the law enforcement community.  That's the issue. 

<<"acquaintance rape" or "date rape" and in such cases there is often no evidence other than the word of the victim as to whether such sexual contact was consensual or not.  Victims in general often make poor witnesses, and victims of sexual assaults are often the>>

Those stupid witnesses just can't do their jobs, and that's why police don't do theirs!  I don't think so. 

<<The problems that have been documented are actually the opposite of what you believe them to be.  Victim's advocates have complained for the past twenty years that cops are too quick to make arrests in domestic violence situations, often arresting both parties involved as soon as they establish there was a physical altercation.  The vast majority of >>

Asserting that domestic violence victims should not be arrested is obviously distinct from asking that laws against interpersonal violence be enforced. 

<<If there were evidence to arrest the suspect in the above-referenced case he would have been arrested.  I am in no way a fan of the polygraph, but in my opinion the polygraph>>

Are you in possession of the evidence in this case?  If not, your statement lacks factual basis and has the potential to hurt a victim who has come here for support. 

<<It is always a tragedy when a child is molested.  Cops have children, too, and every cop I know would go out of his or her way, and use every legal means at their disposal to build an airtight case and arrest a child molester.  The idea that cops let child molesters go because they don't feel like working the case is an insult to all the good cops in this country.  It has nothing to do with the polygraph.>>

Straw-man strikes again.  Did you miss the part where I pointed out that it doesn't take individual abuses (although they may happen) for the systematic abuse of bad forensic tools, and bad logic, to have aggregate discriminatory and unjust effects?  I'm not going to argue with you about whether or not cops hate child molesters and terrorists – seriously. 
Posted by Sergeant1107
 - Dec 03, 2009, 08:38 AM
Quote from: KSack0 on Dec 02, 2009, 10:17 PMI'm not sure what the question at issue is for you.  But I know a logical fallacy when I see it.  Your issuance of anecdotal evidence to invalidate the dysfunctions of the criminal justice system in handling sexual and domestic violence cases constitutes such an error. 

I was simply responding to a post.  The OP was making a statement that I, in my 23 years of law enforcement experience, have found to be untrue.  It is hardly a logical fallacy to refute an opinion with an opinion.

Quote from: KSack0 on Dec 02, 2009, 10:17 PMDo police "have little to no patience with sa/dv cases and look for the easy way out"?  The numbers speak for themselves:  the arrest rate for rape is about 25% -- significantly lower than for most if not all other violent crimes. 

The inference here is, of course, that the low clearance rate for sexual assaults is because the police put little effort into clearing such cases.  That is simply not the case.  Clearance rates for sexual assaults are generally lower than for those of other violent crimes because there is often a lack of compelling physical evidence.  Many cases are "acquaintance rape" or "date rape" and in such cases there is often no evidence other than the word of the victim as to whether such sexual contact was consensual or not.  Victims in general often make poor witnesses, and victims of sexual assaults are often the worst of the lot (for very understandable reasons.)  That is why clearance rates are low, not because the police have no patience to work such cases.

Quote from: KSack0 on Dec 02, 2009, 10:17 PMIf the question at issue is instead the strawman argument you have changed it to, then it's still easy to rebut.  "Would failing to make an arrest in a sa/dv case, especially one involving a minor, cost cops their jobs?"  Based on the above data, if this were the case, there would be a mighty high turnover of police.  There is not. 

I don't believe I included a straw man argument in my post.  It is not failing to make an arrest in a domestic violence case that will cost a cop his or her job, it is failing to make an arrest when there is probable cause to do so that will cost a cop his job.  Look up the Tracey Thurman case in Torrington, CT.  Cops no longer have any discretion in domestic violence cases – if there is probable cause to believe a crime has been committed they are required by statute to make an arrest.

The problems that have been documented are actually the opposite of what you believe them to be.  Victim's advocates have complained for the past twenty years that cops are too quick to make arrests in domestic violence situations, often arresting both parties involved as soon as they establish there was a physical altercation.  The vast majority of complaints from victim's advocates and women's shelters have been of this nature, not that the cops are refusing to make arrests in domestic violence situations.


Quote from: KSack0 on Dec 02, 2009, 10:17 PMIf the question at issue is the more on-topic, "Do police abuse polygraphs?" then it plainly misses the point.  Individual polygraph operators do not have to intentionally engage in abuse (although they may) for the effect to be abusive – just as individual police do not have to hate women to simply, systematically, not enforce laws prohibiting interpersonal violence. 

Finally, the evidence in Sarah's daughter's case is not at issue here.  The failure of the criminal justice system to swing into action on her behalf in no way invalidates the reality of her experiences, or makes her case a bizarre rarity.  On the contrary, the role of the polygraph in enabling this horrendous failure is consistent with the data on both police handling of sa/dv cases, and the data on governmental use of bad forensics to make bad justice.

If there were evidence to arrest the suspect in the above-referenced case he would have been arrested.  I am in no way a fan of the polygraph, but in my opinion the polygraph results were irrelevant in this case.  I'm confident that the detectives in this case had no other worthwhile evidence with which to charge the suspect, so they tried a polygraph in the hopes it would frighten the suspect into a damaging confession.  You don't see a whole lot of detectives with overwhelming physical evidence offering a polygraph to their suspect.

In my experience, most people outside of law enforcement have no idea about the criminal justice process.  They feel if an arrest is not made it must be because the cops are lazy or corrupt.  While there certainly exist lazy cops and even corrupt cops in this country, they are a very small percentage overall.  In the overwhelming majority of cases in which no arrests are made, the reason for said lack of arrests is that there is simply insufficient probable cause to believe the suspect committed the crime in question.  In my jurisdiction we are generally instructed by the State's Attorney's Office to only make arrests (when possible) in cases where there is proof beyond a reasonable doubt, even though that is what is required for a conviction, with only probable cause being required for a valid arrest.  Proof beyond a reasonable doubt require a significant amount of compelling evidence, evidence which is unfortunately not always there, even in violent crimes.

It is always a tragedy when a child is molested.  Cops have children, too, and every cop I know would go out of his or her way, and use every legal means at their disposal to build an airtight case and arrest a child molester.  The idea that cops let child molesters go because they don't feel like working the case is an insult to all the good cops in this country.  It has nothing to do with the polygraph.
Posted by Katelyn Sack
 - Dec 02, 2009, 10:17 PM
Quote from: Sergeant1107 on Dec 02, 2009, 03:33 PM
Quote from: Knightshaiid on Nov 24, 2009, 08:01 PMKatelyn Sack is correct also in that police have little to no patience with domestic violence and cases of sexual assault. They look for the easy way out - cops like to close cases as fast as they can for promotion points, and cases like yours don't close fast.
Based on my twenty-three years of experience in military and civilian law enforcement, I can tell you that is simply not true.

I don't know any cops who will close (presumably without making an arrest) a domestic violence or sexual assault case with a minor victim so that they can get promoted or "take the easy way out."  Even if the cop is a slug he or she is likely to avoid behavior that will cost them their job.
Failing to make an arrest in a domestic violence case will not only cost an officer their job, but may also land them in jail themselves.
Failing to act when a minor has been the victim of a sexual assault will also cost an officer his or her job.

I'm sure there have been isolated cases in which the above have happened, but those cases are indeed a rare exception rather than the rule.

I also don't know any detectives who would hang an entire case on polygraph results.  If there were no charges filed in the above case it is because there was insufficient evidence to establish probable cause that a crime was committed, not because the suspect "passed" a polygraph.  Most detectives I know are fully aware that the polygraph may very well scare a suspect into telling the truth, but it simply cannot discern truth from deception.  As such, they do not put much faith in the results, absent a confession.


I'm not sure what the question at issue is for you.  But I know a logical fallacy when I see it.  Your issuance of anecdotal evidence to invalidate the dysfunctions of the criminal justice system in handling sexual and domestic violence cases constitutes such an error. 

Do police "have little to no patience with sa/dv cases and look for the easy way out"?  The numbers speak for themselves:  the arrest rate for rape is about 25% -- significantly lower than for most if not all other violent crimes.   

If the question at issue is instead the strawman argument you have changed it to, then it's still easy to rebut.  "Would failing to make an arrest in a sa/dv case, especially one involving a minor, cost cops their jobs?"  Based on the above data, if this were the case, there would be a mighty high turnover of police.  There is not. 

If the question at issue is the more on-topic, "Do police abuse polygraphs?" then it plainly misses the point.  Individual polygraph operators do not have to intentionally engage in abuse (although they may) for the effect to be abusive – just as individual police do not have to hate women to simply, systematically, not enforce laws prohibiting interpersonal violence. 

Finally, the evidence in Sarah's daughter's case is not at issue here.  The failure of the criminal justice system to swing into action on her behalf in no way invalidates the reality of her experiences, or makes her case a bizarre rarity.  On the contrary, the role of the polygraph in enabling this horrendous failure is consistent with the data on both police handling of sa/dv cases, and the data on governmental use of bad forensics to make bad justice. 
Posted by Sergeant1107
 - Dec 02, 2009, 03:33 PM
Quote from: Knightshaiid on Nov 24, 2009, 08:01 PMKatelyn Sack is correct also in that police have little to no patience with domestic violence and cases of sexual assault. They look for the easy way out - cops like to close cases as fast as they can for promotion points, and cases like yours don't close fast.
Based on my twenty-three years of experience in military and civilian law enforcement, I can tell you that is simply not true.

I don't know any cops who will close (presumably without making an arrest) a domestic violence or sexual assault case with a minor victim so that they can get promoted or "take the easy way out."  Even if the cop is a slug he or she is likely to avoid behavior that will cost them their job.
Failing to make an arrest in a domestic violence case will not only cost an officer their job, but may also land them in jail themselves.
Failing to act when a minor has been the victim of a sexual assault will also cost an officer his or her job.

I'm sure there have been isolated cases in which the above have happened, but those cases are indeed a rare exception rather than the rule.

I also don't know any detectives who would hang an entire case on polygraph results.  If there were no charges filed in the above case it is because there was insufficient evidence to establish probable cause that a crime was committed, not because the suspect "passed" a polygraph.  Most detectives I know are fully aware that the polygraph may very well scare a suspect into telling the truth, but it simply cannot discern truth from deception.  As such, they do not put much faith in the results, absent a confession.
Posted by Katelyn Sack
 - Nov 27, 2009, 07:23 PM
Quote from: 342635262F470 on Nov 24, 2009, 01:12 PMMy 4 year old daughter was severely molested by her father
as she told me and a total of 9 people, but the local sheriff has completely disregarded her statements because her father passed a polygraph.  Her father is the biggest liar I have ever known, everything I knew about him turned out to be a lie.

Do you think there is any use in copying these articles
and giving them to the local sheriff or would that just antagonize him further?  He has decided my ex is innocent and this last 6 months have been a total nightmare.

My ex has gone around telling everyone he is wrongfully accused.  My 4 year old is not an imaginative child and she doesn't lie.  She certainly never was exposed to anything like the things she has told me he did and I believe her absolutely.  We have been involved in court and with CPS and the Sheriff but the Sheriff believes my ex is innocent
because of the polygraph and I know he is not.  My daughter is not a liar and she has been thoroughly traumatized.  She went back to diapers after being potty trained for over 2 years!!!

I believe the reliance on polygraphs is evil.  This is my experience and it has been absolutely devastating.  In calling him innocent, they are calling me guilty, it has been insinuated I coached her and if there were two things in life I felt good about myself it was my integrity and my mothering.  This last year has been devastating.

If I didn't have my daughter to protect I would have killed myself but I can't abandon her to him.

I believe my ex is a sociopath.

I wish polygraphs didn't exist because they are not honest.
The local detector wrote up a cover sheet for him and stated something like- "He is answering truthfully."  How could she say that?  It's not true.  He was lying.  The sheriff believes he is a good guy but he was the biggest liar I have ever known- and ironically, he is being made out to be some kind of victim, while trying to smear- and succeeding- in smearing those truly victimized- my younger daughter-
and myself and my older daughter who have witnessed my younger daughters outbursts and utterances regarding these events.

I wish polygraphs didn't exist because they are wrong.
Maybe not always- but here, it is wrong.

Sincerely-
Sarah



Triage:  with this post, I am migrating this thread to the top of the recent messages page in order to maximize the immediate input and support that Sarah gets. 
Posted by Knightshaiid
 - Nov 25, 2009, 10:58 AM
Also, you might want to post that Sherriff's contact info here on antipolygraph.org as there are more than a few people who'd be willing to call and give him some advice.
Posted by Knightshaiid
 - Nov 24, 2009, 08:01 PM
Quote from: BBernie on Nov 24, 2009, 06:21 PMYou're right about this.  As far as I know, the polygraph is used for hiring decisions.  The polygraph cannot be used in court proceedings because of the unreliability and unscientific aspect of it.

The polygraph was absolutely NEVER intended for hiring or selection purposes; it was created to investigate specific events that already happened - just like the one this person describes.

As we can see, it can't even do what it was created to do properly. This poor woman's story is further evidence: Polygraphy doesn't work. Period, end of sentence, it doesn't work.

I'd definitely push it - call all the local papers, and don't let up. Sociopaths (which you suspect this person of being, and I completely agree) tend to pass polygraphs without blinking an eyelash, and this has been documented.

Katelyn Sack is correct also in that police have little to no patience with domestic violence and cases of sexual assault. They look for the easy way out - cops like to close cases as fast as they can for promotion points, and cases like yours don't close fast.

Don't let up. Keep at it. Call the State Police, write your local politicians; don't let this go.


Posted by BBernie
 - Nov 24, 2009, 06:21 PM
Quote from: Twoblock on Nov 24, 2009, 05:08 PMSarah

Sheriffs are not in a position to call him guilty or innocent and a pollygrapf certainly can't deem him guilty or innocent since the results is not allowed in court. Can you investigate a pay off here? Do you have a doctor's examination report? The DA can't even consider a polygraph as evidence. You should definately keep pushing this with the DA. Finally, where is the other men in your family? If this happened in my family, the SOB would have already met his Waterloo.

You're right about this.  As far as I know, the polygraph is used for hiring decisions.  The polygraph cannot be used in court proceedings because of the unreliability and unscientific aspect of it.
Posted by Twoblock
 - Nov 24, 2009, 05:08 PM
Sarah

Sheriffs are not in a position to call him guilty or innocent and a pollygrapf certainly can't deem him guilty or innocent since the results is not allowed in court. Can you investigate a pay off here? Do you have a doctor's examination report? The DA can't even consider a polygraph as evidence. You should definately keep pushing this with the DA. Finally, where is the other men in your family? If this happened in my family, the SOB would have already met his Waterloo.