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A forum for free and open discussion of polygraph-related topics
Posted by Fair Chance
- Sep 26, 2008, 07:47 PMDear Reallymad,
Notguilty1 is brutally honest. Many posters accuse the people who have failed the polygraph as liars and sore losers who must move on with their lives. Those that stay here try to console the falsely accused and explain why the country they love would use such a device upon them in the name of "justice" and "truth" in a process in trying to get a job to "serve" the country.
The agencies would rather lose a good candidate than admit that the device is fallible. Applicants are a dime-a-dozen in their eyes. You are collateral damage and that is the price of security. They think the device works and they do not want to believe otherwise. Until applicants stop applying, nothing will change. When that day comes, everyone will be asking "What happend? Everything was just fine a little while ago (shades of banking disasters).
Sad but true.
Regards.
Notguilty1 is brutally honest. Many posters accuse the people who have failed the polygraph as liars and sore losers who must move on with their lives. Those that stay here try to console the falsely accused and explain why the country they love would use such a device upon them in the name of "justice" and "truth" in a process in trying to get a job to "serve" the country.
The agencies would rather lose a good candidate than admit that the device is fallible. Applicants are a dime-a-dozen in their eyes. You are collateral damage and that is the price of security. They think the device works and they do not want to believe otherwise. Until applicants stop applying, nothing will change. When that day comes, everyone will be asking "What happend? Everything was just fine a little while ago (shades of banking disasters).
Sad but true.
Regards.
Posted by notguilty1
- Sep 26, 2008, 07:23 PMQuote from: Reallymad on Sep 26, 2008, 03:45 PMThanks for all the replies.
I'm not quite sure what I should do. On the one hand I'd like to pursue a complaint about the armband, but I'm afraid it would get me nowhere. After the second question into the test she stopped and said she was going to ask her supervisor about the armband...after which she told me to suck it up or the test couldn't be done, so if she did really ask her supervisor, she'd have that backing her up. Somehow I'm not sure if she really asked her supervisor because at the beginning of the pretest interview she had her cell phone on her and explained to me she was waiting for a very important phone call from her doctor and that she would keep her cell phone on vibrate during the pre-test interview, but she would turn it off during the actual test. When she left the room during the test after I complained about the cuff, the conversation I overheard in the hallway sounded like she was talking to her doctor, not her supervisor. So, I wasn't really sure if she asked her supervisor, but for all I know she could have talked to the supervisor as well as answered her phone, I don't know.
I'm also afraid that a complaint will follow me and hurt me more in not only this process for employment but also in others, maybe they'll think I'm too much of a hassle and do whatever they can to deny me employment. I just don't know, I still haven't gotten any results from the polygraph.
I guess if I could ask exactly how tight the armband was and compare it to what is acceptable I could make an argument, but can I get that information about my polygraph? Do they record all that? My second concern is that if I go for a second polygraph, if it is offered, I'm going to be even worse off because I will be anticipating everything knowing how horrible my first experience was. What will I be accused of this time? Maybe next time I'll be a drug dealer, or a gang banger, or something else...at least now I've only been branded a thief...even though I'm innocent, I'd rather not go back for more slander against me knowing that telling the truth doesn't mean I'm going to pass.
The other thing that sounded very strange in my polygraph was that after I complained about the armband, the second question asked if I was falsifying information....that was when she went to "ask her supervisor" because she claimed that nobody had ever reacted to that question. What? Somehow I doubt I'm the only one who would ever have a reaction to that question, for any reason, whether it be physical discomfort, mental anxiety, or if someone was just plain lying about it. That sounded really weird to me.
I'm still debating what to do, I guess I'll wait until I get some results. At first I didn't really feel like the polygrapher was out to get me, but when the test started, I could sense frustration or just a second personality come out, she seemed frustrated and irritated with me. I don't know if that was just a show, or if she was having trouble with my results. I'm on the fence between thinking polygraphers are all vindictive liars or just people who want you to tell the truth and accurately record your results. If she was out to screw me over, make my armband too tight and abuse her position, what would be the motive? Why would a polygrapher want to purposely make you fail? Don't enough people fail naturally, either just from being false positives or because they lied? It's all very confusing, but I do know that there were several things that just weren't right about this experience. :-/
Hey reallymad,
Unfortunately, you find yourself in the same situation as many of us have. Being truthful, and still failing.
The unfortunate reality though is, that you can go ahead and complain to whomever but, I doubt it will do any good.
You see once they have that reading both chart and verbal they are not so ready to rescind their findings since it would show the inherent weaknesses of their silly machine.
They much more prefer to loose a good candidate and move on to the next with no regard to the fact that they pinned you as a lier and thief with NO evidence other than the examiners opinion.
You do have a sympathetic ear here and you can help make a difference in the future. Stay tuned.
Posted by Reallymad
- Sep 26, 2008, 03:45 PMThanks for all the replies.
I'm not quite sure what I should do. On the one hand I'd like to pursue a complaint about the armband, but I'm afraid it would get me nowhere. After the second question into the test she stopped and said she was going to ask her supervisor about the armband...after which she told me to suck it up or the test couldn't be done, so if she did really ask her supervisor, she'd have that backing her up. Somehow I'm not sure if she really asked her supervisor because at the beginning of the pretest interview she had her cell phone on her and explained to me she was waiting for a very important phone call from her doctor and that she would keep her cell phone on vibrate during the pre-test interview, but she would turn it off during the actual test. When she left the room during the test after I complained about the cuff, the conversation I overheard in the hallway sounded like she was talking to her doctor, not her supervisor. So, I wasn't really sure if she asked her supervisor, but for all I know she could have talked to the supervisor as well as answered her phone, I don't know.
I'm also afraid that a complaint will follow me and hurt me more in not only this process for employment but also in others, maybe they'll think I'm too much of a hassle and do whatever they can to deny me employment. I just don't know, I still haven't gotten any results from the polygraph.
I guess if I could ask exactly how tight the armband was and compare it to what is acceptable I could make an argument, but can I get that information about my polygraph? Do they record all that? My second concern is that if I go for a second polygraph, if it is offered, I'm going to be even worse off because I will be anticipating everything knowing how horrible my first experience was. What will I be accused of this time? Maybe next time I'll be a drug dealer, or a gang banger, or something else...at least now I've only been branded a thief...even though I'm innocent, I'd rather not go back for more slander against me knowing that telling the truth doesn't mean I'm going to pass.
The other thing that sounded very strange in my polygraph was that after I complained about the armband, the second question asked if I was falsifying information....that was when she went to "ask her supervisor" because she claimed that nobody had ever reacted to that question. What? Somehow I doubt I'm the only one who would ever have a reaction to that question, for any reason, whether it be physical discomfort, mental anxiety, or if someone was just plain lying about it. That sounded really weird to me.
I'm still debating what to do, I guess I'll wait until I get some results. At first I didn't really feel like the polygrapher was out to get me, but when the test started, I could sense frustration or just a second personality come out, she seemed frustrated and irritated with me. I don't know if that was just a show, or if she was having trouble with my results. I'm on the fence between thinking polygraphers are all vindictive liars or just people who want you to tell the truth and accurately record your results. If she was out to screw me over, make my armband too tight and abuse her position, what would be the motive? Why would a polygrapher want to purposely make you fail? Don't enough people fail naturally, either just from being false positives or because they lied? It's all very confusing, but I do know that there were several things that just weren't right about this experience. :-/
I'm not quite sure what I should do. On the one hand I'd like to pursue a complaint about the armband, but I'm afraid it would get me nowhere. After the second question into the test she stopped and said she was going to ask her supervisor about the armband...after which she told me to suck it up or the test couldn't be done, so if she did really ask her supervisor, she'd have that backing her up. Somehow I'm not sure if she really asked her supervisor because at the beginning of the pretest interview she had her cell phone on her and explained to me she was waiting for a very important phone call from her doctor and that she would keep her cell phone on vibrate during the pre-test interview, but she would turn it off during the actual test. When she left the room during the test after I complained about the cuff, the conversation I overheard in the hallway sounded like she was talking to her doctor, not her supervisor. So, I wasn't really sure if she asked her supervisor, but for all I know she could have talked to the supervisor as well as answered her phone, I don't know.
I'm also afraid that a complaint will follow me and hurt me more in not only this process for employment but also in others, maybe they'll think I'm too much of a hassle and do whatever they can to deny me employment. I just don't know, I still haven't gotten any results from the polygraph.
I guess if I could ask exactly how tight the armband was and compare it to what is acceptable I could make an argument, but can I get that information about my polygraph? Do they record all that? My second concern is that if I go for a second polygraph, if it is offered, I'm going to be even worse off because I will be anticipating everything knowing how horrible my first experience was. What will I be accused of this time? Maybe next time I'll be a drug dealer, or a gang banger, or something else...at least now I've only been branded a thief...even though I'm innocent, I'd rather not go back for more slander against me knowing that telling the truth doesn't mean I'm going to pass.
The other thing that sounded very strange in my polygraph was that after I complained about the armband, the second question asked if I was falsifying information....that was when she went to "ask her supervisor" because she claimed that nobody had ever reacted to that question. What? Somehow I doubt I'm the only one who would ever have a reaction to that question, for any reason, whether it be physical discomfort, mental anxiety, or if someone was just plain lying about it. That sounded really weird to me.
I'm still debating what to do, I guess I'll wait until I get some results. At first I didn't really feel like the polygrapher was out to get me, but when the test started, I could sense frustration or just a second personality come out, she seemed frustrated and irritated with me. I don't know if that was just a show, or if she was having trouble with my results. I'm on the fence between thinking polygraphers are all vindictive liars or just people who want you to tell the truth and accurately record your results. If she was out to screw me over, make my armband too tight and abuse her position, what would be the motive? Why would a polygrapher want to purposely make you fail? Don't enough people fail naturally, either just from being false positives or because they lied? It's all very confusing, but I do know that there were several things that just weren't right about this experience. :-/
Posted by Evan S
- Sep 18, 2008, 10:22 PMI will describe my experience with a counter-intelligence scope polygraph taken in 2000. After informing the polygrapher the blood pressure cuff was leaving a painful tingling sensation in my arm, he reconnected the cuff to my leg, and he was able to get a sufficient reading.
My opinion is that if some subjects are hypersensitive to the arm cuff, then all polygraphers should change the location to the less sensitive leg. Stop accusing some subjects as being more hypersensitive than other subjects.
Regards,
Evan S
My opinion is that if some subjects are hypersensitive to the arm cuff, then all polygraphers should change the location to the less sensitive leg. Stop accusing some subjects as being more hypersensitive than other subjects.
Regards,
Evan S
Posted by SanchoPanza
- Sep 18, 2008, 05:04 PMQuote from: Reallymad on Sep 18, 2008, 04:19 AMI would have told her to either loosen the cuff or end the test. If she refused (after repeated requests), I'd have taken it off myself and gone immediately to the HR office to report it. Might not get the job, but she'd probably never try that shit again. Especially, if you followed it up with a lawsuit or threat of a lawsuit.
TC
TwoBlock wrote
QuoteReallymad
Operators who inflate BP cuffs to where your arm is turning color are sadistic. The cuff doesn't have to be near that tight to get a good reading. She told a bald face lie there.
Ask your doctor what are the hazzards of cutting off blood circulation for a prolonged time then file an abuse lawsuit on her ass. I feel like a damn parrot every time I say this, but someone has got to have the balls to step up to the plate and stop this crap or the abuse will continue. I know I'm wasting my time but, I feel compelled to respond every time I read such a post.
Polygraph operators don't like the CVSA. They don't like another snakeoil peddler interferring with their snakeoil.
Really mad, While I generally disagree 99% of the time with 99% of what Mr. Cullen and TwoBlock say, I have to agree with them here regarding over inflation of the cuff. I don't see how any observed reactions could be supported if the cuff was causing sufficient pain to distract you from the questions. Based on what I have read 40-60mmg is sufficient for clear readings. If an examiner is unable to get a clear reading from an arm cuff at that inflation then alternatives are available.
Either you are hypersensitive- which would indicate an alternate placement rather than accusations OR
The pressure guage was out of calibration, which would be negligence on the part of the polygrapher,
OR It was an intentional over-inflation and that is abusive.
If it were me, I would complain to anyone who would listen.
If you live in a state that requires polygraph licensing you can file a complaint with the licensing board. Filing a formal complaint should not interfere with a future civil action if you decide you want to pursue a civil claim.
I do disagree with Twoblocks characterization of polygraphers as snakeoil salesmen. He's just wrong and refuses to change his mind.
Sancho Panza
Posted by T.M. Cullen
- Sep 18, 2008, 04:19 AMI would have told her to either loosen the cuff or end the test. If she refused (after repeated requests), I'd have taken it off myself and gone immediately to the HR office to report it. Might not get the job, but she'd probably never try that shit again. Especially, if you followed it up with a lawsuit or threat of a lawsuit.
TC
TC
Posted by Twoblock
- Sep 17, 2008, 09:01 PMReallymad
Operators who inflate BP cuffs to where your arm is turning color are sadistic. The cuff doesn't have to be near that tight to get a good reading. She told a bald face lie there.
Ask your doctor what are the hazzards of cutting off blood circulation for a prolonged time then file an abuse lawsuit on her ass. I feel like a damn parrot every time I say this, but someone has got to have the balls to step up to the plate and stop this crap or the abuse will continue. I know I'm wasting my time but, I feel compelled to respond every time I read such a post.
Polygraph operators don't like the CVSA. They don't like another snakeoil peddler interferring with their snakeoil.
Operators who inflate BP cuffs to where your arm is turning color are sadistic. The cuff doesn't have to be near that tight to get a good reading. She told a bald face lie there.
Ask your doctor what are the hazzards of cutting off blood circulation for a prolonged time then file an abuse lawsuit on her ass. I feel like a damn parrot every time I say this, but someone has got to have the balls to step up to the plate and stop this crap or the abuse will continue. I know I'm wasting my time but, I feel compelled to respond every time I read such a post.
Polygraph operators don't like the CVSA. They don't like another snakeoil peddler interferring with their snakeoil.
Posted by Reallymad
- Sep 17, 2008, 05:59 PMI'm glad I found this site because I'm so upset about my polygraph experience and relieved to see that I'm not the only one who had a similar experience.
I have been processing for 2 local police departments, one of which does CVSA and one does polygraph. I took the CVSA and they asked me about the stress in my voice on one question that was a general question about being truthful about everything in the pre-test interview, etc. I explained that I felt a little uneasy because the questions are phrased, "have you ever done this, excluding what we have every talked about." I felt uneasy because I don't know if I included every time I was pulled over, or if I had taken something as a child or anything minor. I knew I had never stolen something, never done drugs, nothing that should be of any consequence to my employment. After I explained this, those administering the test seemed satisfied with my answer and said they would mail me the report. I asked if the test was pass/fail in the sense that if you have stress in your voice one one question you fail altogether, she said no, it depended on how many times you had stress and the severity of the question, such as a drug question. I'm still awaiting the results.
Shortly after, I was up for the polygraph. I didn't research it, I knew that it wasn't 100% accurate, but I didn't think that I had any reason to fear because I was going to answer truthfully..I had no criminal record, never stolen, used drugs, assaulted someone, etc. Before starting the test, the operator told me that so much as moving my eyes could alter my results. When the test first started with the "control questions," I explained that the armband was making me feel really uncomfortable. My arm was getting purplish-blue, I felt dizzy. I told her I always had a problem with this when getting my blood pressure taken at the doctor, it made me feel queasy. She said it was as loose as it could be and I'd have to suck it up. I went through the test barely listening to the questions because I was so uncomfortable. She said my test results were being altered because I kept moving, although I barely moved, although I did move my eyes to look at my arm, OMG!!! I was also told that I looked down and not straight ahead, which was altering my results. I felt the same apprehension about the "have you ever" questions, but I felt like my answers were honest and I had admitted to anything I could think of pertaining to these questions.
At the end of the test she told me this would be a huge waste of my time and hers if I didn't come clean. She told me I was being deceptive and had stolen something, either from an employer or someone else. She told me she knew I was lying. I told her anything I could think of that would be bothering me but none of it was even stealing, maybe stuff like taking a pen from somewhere or whatever. I just couldn't think of anything that I had ever stolen to answer that question. I also explained that my CVSA test indicated no theft according to what I was told when I left the test that day, and she told me that CVSA was BS and that I hadn't even officially gotten my results back. How funny that someone who operates one machine of pseudoscience criticizes another as being "BS." I left the polygraph and she told me this would all go in my file that I was being deceptive about stealing something and my background investigator would have to decide what to do from there. She said occasionally people come back for a retest.
I couldn't believe what happened. Here I thought I had been a good and decent person my whole life, sure I made mistakes and did things I wasn't proud of, but nothing that I could imagine would make me fail a polygraph. And then to fail on questions that I couldn't even think of any possible answer for why I would fail. The only thing I could even say to describe this situation is that it is heartbreaking, to try and be a good person your whole life and be proud of not having done things like drugs, or theft, or getting drunk, and then to have someone you don't even know tell you that you are a liar and that you are guilty of these things just because some crap machine made some squiggly line. And knowing the whole time how uncomfortable I felt with the armband, how on earth can you detect truth when someone feels like they are going to pass out? I took a few deep breaths to remain calm, would that make me look like a liar? This is so ridiculous, and so upsetting. I sympathize with anyone who went through the same thing.
I have been processing for 2 local police departments, one of which does CVSA and one does polygraph. I took the CVSA and they asked me about the stress in my voice on one question that was a general question about being truthful about everything in the pre-test interview, etc. I explained that I felt a little uneasy because the questions are phrased, "have you ever done this, excluding what we have every talked about." I felt uneasy because I don't know if I included every time I was pulled over, or if I had taken something as a child or anything minor. I knew I had never stolen something, never done drugs, nothing that should be of any consequence to my employment. After I explained this, those administering the test seemed satisfied with my answer and said they would mail me the report. I asked if the test was pass/fail in the sense that if you have stress in your voice one one question you fail altogether, she said no, it depended on how many times you had stress and the severity of the question, such as a drug question. I'm still awaiting the results.
Shortly after, I was up for the polygraph. I didn't research it, I knew that it wasn't 100% accurate, but I didn't think that I had any reason to fear because I was going to answer truthfully..I had no criminal record, never stolen, used drugs, assaulted someone, etc. Before starting the test, the operator told me that so much as moving my eyes could alter my results. When the test first started with the "control questions," I explained that the armband was making me feel really uncomfortable. My arm was getting purplish-blue, I felt dizzy. I told her I always had a problem with this when getting my blood pressure taken at the doctor, it made me feel queasy. She said it was as loose as it could be and I'd have to suck it up. I went through the test barely listening to the questions because I was so uncomfortable. She said my test results were being altered because I kept moving, although I barely moved, although I did move my eyes to look at my arm, OMG!!! I was also told that I looked down and not straight ahead, which was altering my results. I felt the same apprehension about the "have you ever" questions, but I felt like my answers were honest and I had admitted to anything I could think of pertaining to these questions.
At the end of the test she told me this would be a huge waste of my time and hers if I didn't come clean. She told me I was being deceptive and had stolen something, either from an employer or someone else. She told me she knew I was lying. I told her anything I could think of that would be bothering me but none of it was even stealing, maybe stuff like taking a pen from somewhere or whatever. I just couldn't think of anything that I had ever stolen to answer that question. I also explained that my CVSA test indicated no theft according to what I was told when I left the test that day, and she told me that CVSA was BS and that I hadn't even officially gotten my results back. How funny that someone who operates one machine of pseudoscience criticizes another as being "BS." I left the polygraph and she told me this would all go in my file that I was being deceptive about stealing something and my background investigator would have to decide what to do from there. She said occasionally people come back for a retest.
I couldn't believe what happened. Here I thought I had been a good and decent person my whole life, sure I made mistakes and did things I wasn't proud of, but nothing that I could imagine would make me fail a polygraph. And then to fail on questions that I couldn't even think of any possible answer for why I would fail. The only thing I could even say to describe this situation is that it is heartbreaking, to try and be a good person your whole life and be proud of not having done things like drugs, or theft, or getting drunk, and then to have someone you don't even know tell you that you are a liar and that you are guilty of these things just because some crap machine made some squiggly line. And knowing the whole time how uncomfortable I felt with the armband, how on earth can you detect truth when someone feels like they are going to pass out? I took a few deep breaths to remain calm, would that make me look like a liar? This is so ridiculous, and so upsetting. I sympathize with anyone who went through the same thing.