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Posted by Lethe
 - Apr 24, 2008, 02:28 PM
Quote from: joejoe on Apr 24, 2008, 02:01 PM
QuoteIt's pretty well established that the more you know about how the polygraph really works the less likely you are to be able to pass it

Not true.  The more you know, the better.

TC

My skepticism extends to claims about the ease with which countermeasures can be used.  I think a dishonest person is probably better off using countermeasures; he or she may beat the system and if detected will be no worse off than if ruled deceptive.  And, of course, if a person is going to use countermeasures the more he or she knows the better.  

But I am not certain that an honest person is better off using countermeasures than just being ignorant.  Of course, you cannot put the genie back in the bottle.  Once you have tasted from the Tree of Knowledge of the Polygraph there is no return to the Eden of Ignorance.  Once a person has gotten as far as this forum they probably don't have a choice anymore: they already know too much.

In any event, people using countermeasures is always a bad thing for polygraphers.  If a dishonest person uses them successfully polygraphers lose for passing someone who should fail; if an honest person uses them unsuccessfully polygraphers lose for failing someone who should pass; if a dishonest person uses them unsuccessfully polygraphers are slightly worse off than if they'd found the subject deceptive; and if an honest person uses them successfully it discredits the polygraph in his or her mind, reduces it's deterrent value, and makes it more likely that others will use countermeasures in the future.  It's a lose-lose-lose-lose situation for polygraphers.

Thus the Polygraph Imperative, which states that polygraphers should do everything they can to keep people ignorant of the polygraph and keep them from questioning polygraphers, even if this means making people generally ignorant, incapable of critical thought on any subject, and unwilling to question anyone in authority.

Due to the logic of the Polygraph Imperative, polygraphers consider a group of dumb, ignorant, easily manipulated people to be more desireable than a group of smart, critically thinking, and questioning people because the former is easier to detect in lies than the latter.  Incidentally, the following groups and people have their own, basically identical, veriant of the Polygraph Imperative:
  • Astrologers
  • Creationists
  • Conspiracy theorists (all types)
  • Practitioners of "alternative medecine"
  • Holocaust deniers
  • Homophobes
  • Con artists
  • And many more!
So, by working to make the population stupid and easily manipulated, polygraphers are unintentionally helping all of the above.  Think of how great society is going to be soon!
Posted by T.M. Cullen
 - Apr 24, 2008, 02:21 PM
Joejoe,

I don't which agency you are applying for, but at NSA you have to see a shrink for a psych eval.  Just let them know about the PTSD.

The doctor will evaluate your level of risk (low/moderate/high) with regard to your condition.

If you fail to disclose, they might throw your application out!
Posted by T.M. Cullen
 - Apr 24, 2008, 02:01 PM
QuoteIt's pretty well established that the more you know about how the polygraph really works the less likely you are to be able to pass it

You'll have to elaborate on that one.

That sounds like what the polygraphers would have you believe.  

TC
Posted by Lethe
 - Apr 24, 2008, 12:35 AM
Quote from: joejoe on Apr 23, 2008, 10:25 PM
Quote from: joejoe on Apr 23, 2008, 09:45 PM

Personally, I would accept the offer, and play the game, ASSUMING that if you don't pass thier little poly test, your world will not come to an end.  But, remember though, that you will likely be asked in the future if  you have ever taken a polygraph and the results, so a failed test can come back to haunt you, (which is a prime gripe I have with the whole procedure).

Others should be along shortly with better advice, this is the best I have on a short notice, and I am not familiar with your particular DoD thing you are applying for, so I cannot answer your specific questions.

Well, I'm in a position now where I require a CI, and DoD counts your last poly and not any previous ones. If I fail this one, I lose access at my current (or any future) position.

It's pretty well established that the more you know about how the polygraph really works the less likely you are to be able to pass it.  Sorry; sucks to be you.  Just flip a coin and if it comes up heads go for it, tails decline the offer.

Polygraphers are a cancer growing on our government and formerly respectable law enforcement agencies; like all cancers, they should be eliminated.
Posted by joejoe
 - Apr 23, 2008, 10:25 PM
Quote from: joejoe on Apr 23, 2008, 09:45 PM

Personally, I would accept the offer, and play the game, ASSUMING that if you don't pass thier little poly test, your world will not come to an end.  But, remember though, that you will likely be asked in the future if  you have ever taken a polygraph and the results, so a failed test can come back to haunt you, (which is a prime gripe I have with the whole procedure).

Others should be along shortly with better advice, this is the best I have on a short notice, and I am not familiar with your particular DoD thing you are applying for, so I cannot answer your specific questions.

Well, I'm in a position now where I require a CI, and DoD counts your last poly and not any previous ones. If I fail this one, I lose access at my current (or any future) position.
Posted by nopolycop
 - Apr 23, 2008, 09:45 PM
Quote from: joejoe on Apr 23, 2008, 08:41 PMSo, I have a job offer and it requires that I take a fullscope (DoD).

I've already taken a CI with no problems, however I know that they really don't compare much.
Here are my questions:

1: What type of questions are asked. Specifically, questions about your personal life, have you ever stolen anything, etc? I download alot of software from various sources and I'm hoping this doesn't come back to bite me. (FYI, I've never done drugs)

2: I'm a two-time combat vet and see a doc about PTSD and have been diagnosed. I'm not ashamed, however I know it's a question on the exam, as well as every SF-86 I've ever filled out. I haven't yet had to disclose it, however I'm wondering if anyone has specific experience with this sort of thing. Is it likely to affect me?

3: I've heard about the pre-test and how some people go through it and don't even get to the exam. I guess my root questions are, what can I expect? What are the core questions that they are going to ask that could potentially hurt me. I don't plan on employing countermeasures, because I can just not accept the offer (it's a good one) if I feel like it's not going to work out for me. I don't want to be dishonest, but from what i've read, the punchline is basically, employ countermeasures and don't admit to anything...

Anyone have any insight? I need to let the company know by tomorrow so I'm hoping for a quick turnaround..

Personally, I would accept the offer, and play the game, ASSUMING that if you don't pass thier little poly test, your world will not come to an end.  But, remember though, that you will likely be asked in the future if  you have ever taken a polygraph and the results, so a failed test can come back to haunt you, (which is a prime gripe I have with the whole procedure).

Others should be along shortly with better advice, this is the best I have on a short notice, and I am not familiar with your particular DoD thing you are applying for, so I cannot answer your specific questions.
Posted by joejoe
 - Apr 23, 2008, 08:41 PM
So, I have a job offer and it requires that I take a fullscope (DoD).

I've already taken a CI with no problems, however I know that they really don't compare much.
Here are my questions:

1: What type of questions are asked. Specifically, questions about your personal life, have you ever stolen anything, etc? I download alot of software from various sources and I'm hoping this doesn't come back to bite me. (FYI, I've never done drugs)

2: I'm a two-time combat vet and see a doc about PTSD and have been diagnosed. I'm not ashamed, however I know it's a question on the exam, as well as every SF-86 I've ever filled out. I haven't yet had to disclose it, however I'm wondering if anyone has specific experience with this sort of thing. Is it likely to affect me?

3: I've heard about the pre-test and how some people go through it and don't even get to the exam. I guess my root questions are, what can I expect? What are the core questions that they are going to ask that could potentially hurt me. I don't plan on employing countermeasures, because I can just not accept the offer (it's a good one) if I feel like it's not going to work out for me. I don't want to be dishonest, but from what i've read, the punchline is basically, employ countermeasures and don't admit to anything...

Anyone have any insight? I need to let the company know by tomorrow so I'm hoping for a quick turnaround..