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A forum for free and open discussion of polygraph-related topics
Posted by George W. Maschke
- Oct 18, 2003, 09:39 AMHere is a summary and an update. As long-time readers will recall, on 12 March 2002 AntiPolygraph.org filed two Freedom of Information Act requests with the Central Intelligence Agency for:
1) "any report(s) on the history of the CIA polygraph division, including, but not limited to, any written by former CIA polygrapher John F. Sullivan"
2) "documentation of any standardized briefing provided to CIA employees or applicants prior to their taking polygraph examinations, whether on paper, videotape, or any other media."
These requests are avaiable here, respectively:
http://antipolygraph.org/foia/foia-008.shtml
http://antipolygraph.org/foia/foia-009.shtml
The CIA conisdered these requests jointly, assigning them reference number F-2002-00237, and initially demanded a commitment to pay search fees estimated at $300 before it would process these request:
http://antipolygraph.org/foia/foia-008-1.shtml
However, upon appeal, the Agency yielded and waived search fees:
http://antipolygraph.org/foia/foia-008-2.shtml
Finally, on 2 October 2003, the CIA reported that it had found no records responsive to AntiPolygraph.org's request with respect to a history of the CIA polygraph division. Regarding our request for documentation of any standardized pre-polygraph briefings, the CIA reported that "we located material which we have determined is properly classified and must be denied in its entirety on the basis of FOIA exemptions (b)(1) and (b)(3)":
http://antipolygraph.org/foia/foia-008-3.shtml
The CIA invites me to appeal this denial, asking that I explain the basis for any appeal. However, the CIA egregiously failed to comply with the FOIA requirement that in denying a request, an estimate of the amount of matter withheld be provided. See 5 U.S.C. 552 (a)(6)(f). Without some reasonable description of the withheld information, it will be difficult to adequately explain the basis for any appeal.
I will be contacting the CIA FOIA office to request a description of the withheld material before filing any appeal. If anyone has any suggestions on appealing this decision, I would be grateful. One point that comes to mind is that since the CIA's pre-polygraph briefing is presented to applicants who presumably have no security clearance, the argument that briefing materials are properly classified in their entirety and cannot be released fails the "giggle test."
1) "any report(s) on the history of the CIA polygraph division, including, but not limited to, any written by former CIA polygrapher John F. Sullivan"
2) "documentation of any standardized briefing provided to CIA employees or applicants prior to their taking polygraph examinations, whether on paper, videotape, or any other media."
These requests are avaiable here, respectively:
http://antipolygraph.org/foia/foia-008.shtml
http://antipolygraph.org/foia/foia-009.shtml
The CIA conisdered these requests jointly, assigning them reference number F-2002-00237, and initially demanded a commitment to pay search fees estimated at $300 before it would process these request:
http://antipolygraph.org/foia/foia-008-1.shtml
However, upon appeal, the Agency yielded and waived search fees:
http://antipolygraph.org/foia/foia-008-2.shtml
Finally, on 2 October 2003, the CIA reported that it had found no records responsive to AntiPolygraph.org's request with respect to a history of the CIA polygraph division. Regarding our request for documentation of any standardized pre-polygraph briefings, the CIA reported that "we located material which we have determined is properly classified and must be denied in its entirety on the basis of FOIA exemptions (b)(1) and (b)(3)":
http://antipolygraph.org/foia/foia-008-3.shtml
The CIA invites me to appeal this denial, asking that I explain the basis for any appeal. However, the CIA egregiously failed to comply with the FOIA requirement that in denying a request, an estimate of the amount of matter withheld be provided. See 5 U.S.C. 552 (a)(6)(f). Without some reasonable description of the withheld information, it will be difficult to adequately explain the basis for any appeal.
I will be contacting the CIA FOIA office to request a description of the withheld material before filing any appeal. If anyone has any suggestions on appealing this decision, I would be grateful. One point that comes to mind is that since the CIA's pre-polygraph briefing is presented to applicants who presumably have no security clearance, the argument that briefing materials are properly classified in their entirety and cannot be released fails the "giggle test."
Posted by George W. Maschke
- Sep 20, 2002, 04:14 PMI received today a letter dated 11 September 2002 from Kathryn I. Dyer, the CIA's Information and Privacy coordinator, informing me that the CIA has accepted both requests (she still refers to them as a single request) and has determined that no fees will be charged.
She also writes that because of the large number of requests received, the Agency will not be able to respond within the 20 days stipulated by the FOIA. She does not provide an approximate date by which a response is anticipated.
She also writes that because of the large number of requests received, the Agency will not be able to respond within the 20 days stipulated by the FOIA. She does not provide an approximate date by which a response is anticipated.
Posted by George W. Maschke
- May 07, 2002, 01:42 AMToday (6 May) I faxed a letter to the CIA FOIA office agreeing to pay fees of up to $150 per request and requesting information on how to contact the person who handles appeals of fee determinations, as I'll be appealing Ms. Dyer's decision not to waive fees with regard to these requests.
Posted by beech trees
- Apr 29, 2002, 10:57 AMQuote from: J.B. on Apr 28, 2002, 07:10 PMIt is hard to prove or disprove how many 'spies' have been 'caught' by the polygraph. Polygraph is rarely referred to in-depth in the minuscule amount of publicized espionage cases, for obvious national security reasons.
Well, the most informed source one could hope for, ex-CIA Director John Deutch said something quite different.
Edward Curran also confirmed (see same thread as above) in a televised interview that no spy has ever been caught with a polygraph interrogation.
So, when comparing the veracity and accuracy between anonymous posters on the Internet who's livelihood depends upon deceiving others, and the words of an ex CIA Director and the head of the CIA's counterintelligence efforts , I think I'll choose the latter two.
Posted by J.B. McCloughan
- Apr 28, 2002, 07:10 PMBrokenHearted,
George is correct in saying that your character faults are not caused by him banning/blocking your messages. First, this would not be the fault message received if he where blocking/banning your messages. Second, George and I have debated over vast issues and not once has my original information been altered, deleted, or changed for any reason[/b] other then to correct invalid/incompatible code problems.
It is hard to prove or disprove how many 'spies' have been 'caught' by the polygraph. Polygraph is rarely referred to in-depth in the minuscule amount of publicized espionage cases, for obvious national security reasons.
George is correct in saying that your character faults are not caused by him banning/blocking your messages. First, this would not be the fault message received if he where blocking/banning your messages. Second, George and I have debated over vast issues and not once has my original information been altered, deleted, or changed for any reason[/b] other then to correct invalid/incompatible code problems.
It is hard to prove or disprove how many 'spies' have been 'caught' by the polygraph. Polygraph is rarely referred to in-depth in the minuscule amount of publicized espionage cases, for obvious national security reasons.
Posted by George W. Maschke
- Apr 28, 2002, 04:44 AMQuote from: BrokenHeart on Apr 28, 2002, 01:52 AM
We cannot tell you how hurt we are......We wonder if you will tell all those who read your postings how you handle people who write things that you do not like and want to quiet them!...and after you told them again and again that this BBS is an open forum.....what a hypocrite!.......Never mind...We will pass the word.....Hey all...when George and company do not like what you say.....you will see the following message pop up when attempting to post:
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?INVALID CHARACTER USED IN EMAIL
You will then effectively be kept from posting......Shame on you George...shame, shame, shame
Concerned/BrokenHeart,
Your assumption that we're attempting to censor posts here is as premature (and wrong) as your earlier assumption about the level of public interest in the CIA FOIA requests.
I'm not sure what aspect of any attempted post may have resulted in the "Invalid Character Used in E-mail" message, but it certainly wasn't the result of me or anyone else pre-screening the content of your posts. Any error messages are generated automatically by the software that runs this message board.
For ease of posting, you might care to become a registered user of the message board, as several other polygraph proponents have done. For this purpose, you might wish to create a free, anonymous, and secure e-mail account with ZipLip.com to enter when registering.
Posted by BEAR
- Apr 28, 2002, 03:26 AMBroken heart
Are you suggesting that George and Gino are reading post as they are posted or that they are censored somehow? Does anyone have the time to sit by the computer and read every post? Every time I have posted the post goes directly to the forum. Furthermore, if you would take the time to read the post in this forum you can see many post that they would not agree with but they still appear. Maybe you should actually check the email address you entered before making such comments. Your fear of our knowledge is showing.
Are you suggesting that George and Gino are reading post as they are posted or that they are censored somehow? Does anyone have the time to sit by the computer and read every post? Every time I have posted the post goes directly to the forum. Furthermore, if you would take the time to read the post in this forum you can see many post that they would not agree with but they still appear. Maybe you should actually check the email address you entered before making such comments. Your fear of our knowledge is showing.
Posted by BrokenHeart
- Apr 28, 2002, 01:52 AMWe cannot tell you how hurt we are......We wonder if you will tell all those who read your postings how you handle people who write things that you do not like and want to quiet them!...and after you told them again and again that this BBS is an open forum.....what a hypocrite!.......Never mind...We will pass the word.....Hey all...when George and company do not like what you say.....you will see the following message pop up when attempting to post:
INVALID CHARACTER USED IN EMAIL
You will then effectively be kept from posting......Shame on you George...shame, shame, shame
INVALID CHARACTER USED IN EMAIL
You will then effectively be kept from posting......Shame on you George...shame, shame, shame
Posted by beech trees
- Apr 27, 2002, 10:52 AMPut me down for $50.00 George.
Posted by George W. Maschke
- Apr 27, 2002, 05:31 AMbeech trees,
No, there's no such limitation. Although the CIA's estimated search fees seem exorbitant, I wouldn't necessarily conclude that they're acting in bad faith on this. But I do think the information in the two requests is well enough described that search time for each should be under two hours (unless the CIA searches with one eye closed).
Concerned,
Your snide remarks reflect poorly on yourself, and on the polygraph community.
QuoteI'm probably mistaken, but I thought there was a Federal statute that prohibited charges greater than $50.00 for FOIA requests..... regardless, it would appear the CIA is trying to extort you.
No, there's no such limitation. Although the CIA's estimated search fees seem exorbitant, I wouldn't necessarily conclude that they're acting in bad faith on this. But I do think the information in the two requests is well enough described that search time for each should be under two hours (unless the CIA searches with one eye closed).
Concerned,
QuoteSeems that you do not have the following you thought you did...or at least not as committed as you would like them.....hey maybe you can sell tickets to Drew's Countermeasure show.....naw!...there won't be any takers.....
Your snide remarks reflect poorly on yourself, and on the polygraph community.
Posted by George W. Maschke
- Apr 27, 2002, 05:16 AMThanks to all who have contacted me thus far (27 Apr.) regarding sharing the costs of this FOIA request. Here are our collective commitments to covering potential search fees that the CIA may charge:
1 x up to $20
3 x up to $50
1 x up to $100
1 x up to $300
If any others would also be willing to help share the burden, please let me know. What I suggest we do is to distribute any charges amongst ourselves as equitably as possible without any person exceeding his/her commitment.
I'll be sending a reply to Ms. Dyer in the coming week asking her to proceed with these two FOIA requests.
1 x up to $20
3 x up to $50
1 x up to $100
1 x up to $300
If any others would also be willing to help share the burden, please let me know. What I suggest we do is to distribute any charges amongst ourselves as equitably as possible without any person exceeding his/her commitment.
I'll be sending a reply to Ms. Dyer in the coming week asking her to proceed with these two FOIA requests.
Posted by concerned
- Apr 27, 2002, 02:14 AMSeems that you do not have the following you thought you did...or at least not as committed as you would like them.....hey maybe you can sell tickets to Drew's Countermeasure show.....naw!...there won't be any takers.....
Posted by beech trees
- Apr 18, 2002, 12:11 PMGeorge,
I'm probably mistaken, but I thought there was a Federal statute that prohibited charges greater than $50.00 for FOIA requests..... regardless, it would appear the CIA is trying to extort you.
I'm probably mistaken, but I thought there was a Federal statute that prohibited charges greater than $50.00 for FOIA requests..... regardless, it would appear the CIA is trying to extort you.
Posted by George W. Maschke
- Apr 18, 2002, 06:34 AMOn 12 March 2002, I filed two Freedom of Information Act requests with the CIA for:
1) "any report(s) on the history of the CIA polygraph division, including, but not limited to, any written by former CIA polygrapher John F. Sullivan" and
2) "documentation of any standardized briefing provided to CIA employees or applicants prior to their taking polygraph examinations, whether on paper, videotape, or any other media."
In a reply dated 26 March 2002, CIA Information and Privacy Coordinater Kathryn I. Dyer wrote back, stating that I must agree to pay estimated costs of up to $150 per request before the CIA will take further action on them. Fees would be payable even if the CIA ultimately decides to withhold the requested information.
Fees would accrue for time spent searching for the requested items beyond the first two hours, which are free. While I think that I've described the documents requested well enough that they should be findable within the two free hours allotted per request, I'm left to contemplate whether I can afford the possible charges of up to $300 associated with these requests.
If anyone else would be willing to share the costs of these FOIA requests with me, if indeed fees are incurred, please let me know to what extent you are willing to help, either through a post to the message board or by private e-mail to me at maschke@antipolygraph.org.
Ms. Dyer seeks a response from me within 45 days of the date of her letter, that is, by 10 May.
1) "any report(s) on the history of the CIA polygraph division, including, but not limited to, any written by former CIA polygrapher John F. Sullivan" and
2) "documentation of any standardized briefing provided to CIA employees or applicants prior to their taking polygraph examinations, whether on paper, videotape, or any other media."
In a reply dated 26 March 2002, CIA Information and Privacy Coordinater Kathryn I. Dyer wrote back, stating that I must agree to pay estimated costs of up to $150 per request before the CIA will take further action on them. Fees would be payable even if the CIA ultimately decides to withhold the requested information.
Fees would accrue for time spent searching for the requested items beyond the first two hours, which are free. While I think that I've described the documents requested well enough that they should be findable within the two free hours allotted per request, I'm left to contemplate whether I can afford the possible charges of up to $300 associated with these requests.
If anyone else would be willing to share the costs of these FOIA requests with me, if indeed fees are incurred, please let me know to what extent you are willing to help, either through a post to the message board or by private e-mail to me at maschke@antipolygraph.org.
Ms. Dyer seeks a response from me within 45 days of the date of her letter, that is, by 10 May.