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A forum for free and open discussion of polygraph-related topics
Posted by Roger
- Aug 18, 2015, 02:34 PMAny way you look at what John Grogan is doing he is a fraud and cheat. I fell for his polygraph course in a box, but half way through he stopped sending it. He will not return emails, he was sued in court and didn't show so now he has an active arrest warrant in Colorado. This guy is the definition of fraud.
Posted by George W. Maschke
- Oct 23, 2014, 04:02 AMQuoteYou must be outdated, there are some courts out there that are currently allowing polygraph exams as evidence. Of course Mr Grogan wouldn't qualify as he lost his license.
Roger,
I'm very much aware that on occasion, some courts have allowed polygraph results into evidence. See, for example, Ohio v. Sharma. But such instances are not common; they are the exception, not the rule.
Posted by Roger
- Oct 22, 2014, 02:09 PMQuote from: George_Maschke on Mar 10, 2008, 02:48 PMTheNoLieGuy4U,
The only people claiming that polygraphic lie detection has any scientific basis are those with vested interests in polygraphy. There is broad consensus amongst scientists that polygraphy has no scientific basis. The fact that there are computerized scoring algorithms for polygraph "testing" doesn't mean that the underlying procedure has any scientific basis. Very much in the same way as computer-generated astrological chart readings have no scientific basis. Note that the National Academy of Sciences rubbished the "PolyScore" algorithm to which you refer.
And again, none of the members of the National Academy of Sciences' Committee to Review the Scientific Evidence on the Polygraph were subject to polygraph screening, as you have repeatedly, but falsely, alleged on this message board. Members of the NAS panel were selected specifically because they had expertise in relevant fields but no vested interest in the outcome of the review. Their names were published on-line for public commentary before the first meeting convened, and members of the public were given an opportunity to voice any objections to the selection of any proposed member. To the best of my knowledge, no objections were received.
You asked whether I know of any specific cases where a person failed a polygraph test, and it was later conclusively shown that someone else committed the crime. As a matter of fact, I am. Two notorious cases are those of Byron Halsey and Jeff Deskovic, who both falsely confessed to murder during interrogations that followed false positive polygraph outcomes. Another prominent example of a completely innocent person who wrongly failed a polygraph test is Abdallah Higazy, from whom a false confession was also coerced.
Not all licensed professionals require liability waivers. When a licensed optometrists tests my vision, I'm not required to sign a liability waiver. When a licensed mechanic tests the emission levels of my car, I'm not required to sign a liability waiver. I don't see why, if a person is going to have his or her credibility "assessed" by a licensed polygraph "professional," such persons should be required to sign a liability waiver. There is on physical danger associated with sitting for a polygraph test. Such waivers are simply a flight from accountability on the part of polygraph operators.
As for the polygraph operators whose true identities were revealed, we make no apology. It was an exceptional measure taken in response to a deliberate campaign to disrupt this message board, and after repeated admonishments to abide by AntiPolygraph.org's posting policy were ignored. A good rule of thumb for all posting here would be to post nothing that one would be ashamed or embarrassed by if one's real name were associated with the post.
Finally, you ask:QuoteIs there any Anti-poly person seeking to better the inadaquacies they see in the polygraph profession willing to stipulate that there is a clear difference between those like the fraud convict John L. Grogan and his PEOA Groganites and those who have graduated from APA approved polygraph schools; and that clear strict licensing is needed ?
Why should we suppose that, say Ed Gelb, a past president and life member in good standing of the American Polygraph Association who falsely passes himself off as a Ph.D. in marketing his services produces any more reliable results than John Grogan?
You must be outdated, there are some courts out there that are currently allowing polygraph exams as evidence. Of course Mr Grogan wouldn't qualify as he lost his license.
Posted by CrimeScene
- Mar 28, 2008, 04:33 AMThe Tom Leykis show is having a follow-up today, Friday, March 28, 2008, regarding what happened a couple weeks ago about John Grogan.
Check the website for air time in your area or you can listen online. They want PIs or anyone with useful info to email (Gary on the site) or to call in.
You may want to pass it on. The site is:
http://www.blowmeuptom.com/
Check the website for air time in your area or you can listen online. They want PIs or anyone with useful info to email (Gary on the site) or to call in.
You may want to pass it on. The site is:
http://www.blowmeuptom.com/
Posted by George W. Maschke
- Mar 14, 2008, 05:37 AMRather than using highlights, different colors, or ALL CAPS to differentiate quoted text from your replies, please use quote tags. These and other formatting options are explained on the help page:
https://antipolygraph.org/cgi-bin/forums/YaBB.pl?action=help
https://antipolygraph.org/cgi-bin/forums/YaBB.pl?action=help
Posted by TheNoLieGuy4U
- Mar 14, 2008, 05:19 AM[color=#cccccc]Can the moderator point to even one article in the Arab or Persian world that existed prior to the creation of this site, or his job in Holland interacting with Anti-U.S. Iranian personnel ? [/color]
See the section Devices Used in Interrogation from the Encyclopedia of Jihad. Although the electronic version is dated 2002, the original print edition pre-dates AntiPolygraph.org.
THIS ANSWER WOULD APPEAR TO BE A DODGE AND WHOLLY INSUFFICIANT AS IT DOES NOT SHOW ANY PRIOR KNOWLEDGE OF COUNTER MEASURE ATTEMPTS OTHER THAN TO SAY IN A NAIVE WAY THAT IF YOU (The Terrorist) DON'T BELIEVE IT THE MACHINE IT WILL NOT WORK ON YOU. WHERE IS THE CM INFORMATON THAT PRE-DATES YOUR SITE TO SHOW YOU DID NOT INSPIRE OR ASSIST THESE PEOPLE AS THE SOLE HUMAN BEING WITH BOTH THE PASSION FOR THIS AND TECHNICAL CAPABILITY TO ASSIST THEM. SO PLEASE, A CM SOURCE MADE AVAILABLE TO THE ENEMIES OF THIS COUNTRY THAT PRECEDES YOUR SITE OR MEETING THEM.
[highlight]Is there even ONE other individual who both speaks, reads, and writes the language of our enemies who placed such things in their hands; and sheepishly wrote about it in what myself and others perceived as bragging (reasonable people may differ on that a bit). [/highlight]
My knowledge of Middle Eastern languages has no bearing on the fact that U.S. adversaries can read English, as the article "The Myth of the Lie Detector" in Al-Fath magazine clearly demonstrates.
THAT THEY CAN READ ENGLISH IS NOT IN QUESTION. THAT YOU WORK WITH THESE PEOPLE, AND CAN NOT DENY SUCH CONVERSATIONS ABOUT CM's WITH THEM POINTS TO YOUR BEING A SOURCE, IF NOT THE SOURCE THAT INSPIRED THESE ARTICLES. DURING THESE APPARANT CONVERSATIONS IN COVERING THAT TOPIC YOU AIDED AND ABETTED THE ENEMIES OF THE UNITED STATES AS SOMEONE WHO HAD IN ALL PRACTICALITY SWORE NOT TO DO SO. THEY HAVE BEEN OUR ENEMY FOR ALL OF YOUR ADULT LIFE, AND YOU DID NOT TELL THEM THIS IN SOME INNOCENT WAY, BUT RATHER YOUR ZEALOUS PASSION ABOUT IT WON OUT OVER YOUR COMMON SENSE.
As I have further pointed out, people who openly admit to being convicted child molesters on probation or parole and who are under court order to be monitored come here for advice in regard to trying to defeat the system. GM provides information he believes will assist them to pass so they can do what
Molest more kids, or empower their minds to do same ? Come on, if you had to pick two catagories of human beings today to NOT associate with for the rest of your life--- I would say that Middle Eastern Radical Islamists and Child Molesters are at or near the top of that list--- and yet they are catered to here. What is the response to this objection ? Only that they are Incidental Viewers !!!! Rediculous !!! If I had a child or grandchild who were molested and that person confessed to the police or anyone else that they came to this sight and were given advice that caused them to continue molesting---- it would be more than them alone I would come after.
AntiPolygraph.org makes information about polygraph procedure and countermeasures available to the public to provide the truthful with the means of protecting themselves against a false positive outcome, especially in the context of pre-employment polygraph screening.
ISN'T THIS ALSO SAYING YOU ELECTED TO EQUALLY PROTECT THE LIAR'S WHO HAVE COMMITTED CRIMINAL ACTS ? AREN'T YOU ALSO FROM AN EMPASSIONED VIEW BETRAYING THE PUBLIC WHOM SWORN OFFICERS HAVE A DUTY TO PROTECT, BUT BECAUSE OF YOU MAY HAVE A FALSE NEGATIVE OUTCOME, WHERE THE PERPETRATOR THEN GOES ON TO DO SAME SAID CRIME AGAIN ? SHOULD YOU BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE WHEN IT CAN BE TRACED TO YOU ? SPEAKING FOR MYSELF, IF IT WERE MY GRANDCHILD MOLESTED I WOULD NOT BE AT ALL IMPRESSED BY YOUR ACADEMIC EXCERCISE, BUT RATHER OUT FOR JUSTICE. AN EYE FOR AN EYE.
There is no way of making this information available to those who legitimately need it without making it available to everyone. The ethical considerations involved have been addressed a length in my Response to Paul M. Menges Regarding the Ethical Considerations of Providing Polygraph Countermeasures to the Public."
YOU APPEAR SELF APPOINTED IN DETERMINING "Those who legitimately need it" vs. THOSE WHO GET HURT BY IT. YOU MAY YET HAVE TO ANSWER FOR THAT. THANK YOU FOR BEING ON RECORD THOUGH [/color]
As previously stated TwoBlock, YOU as John Q. Public can / could post such material on the internet; but GM is in fact special. He has an inherant obligation as a person with a PhD to be of a higher caliber, and as a former intelligence officer to see all of the contingencies as they might unfold; and in this case the risks outweighed the perceived benefits when countermeasure advice is given, and to whom.
I think that after being presented with the facts, most objective observers can see that it is the height of folly to continue placing reliance on a pseudoscientific fraud such as polygraph "testing." I think they will also agree that it is immoral for the State to pretend to assess the honesty and integrity of individuals on the basis of such a fraudulent procedure.
I THINK ? I THINK ? PERHAPS YOU DIDN'T THINK WITH A LEVEL HEAD, BUT RATHER AN OBSESSED AND REVENGEFUL ONE !!! SUCH THINGS BEFORE BEING PLACED I THE HANDS OF ENEMIES OF THE UNITED STATES BOTH FOREIGN AND DOMESTIC SHOULD NOT BE DECIDED BY SUCH MEN WHO SWORE AN OATH TO PROTECT THE ASSETTS OF THE INTELLIGENCE COMMUNITY THEY SERVED. IT WAS SIMPLY NOT YOUR DECISION TO MAKE !!!! I BELIEVE THAT YOU NOW NEED SOMETHING NEW TO THINK ABOUT AND OBSESS OVER. MAYBE YOU NEED TO "THINK" ABOUT HOW YOU HAVE INSPIRED THE ENEMIES OF THIS NATION AND CHILD MOLESTING CRIMINALS. HOW MANY CHILDREN ARE YOU WILLING TO RUIN TO HELP THESE MOLESTERS SO THAT YOU CAN CONTINUE WITH I THINK ? IF I WERE ADDRESSIGN YOUR JURY I WOULD ASK THEM WHAT IN THE HELL WERE YOU THINKING ? LADIES AND GENTLEMAN OF THE JURY--- IT IS NOW TIME FOR YOU TO THINK !!!
Historically, the job of an Intelligence Officer is that you enter into a special world wherein what you work on in the singular, or what is in the best interest of the greater intelligence community in the plural, is protected. There are even men today who served in WW 2 who can not write about their actions and work in that war, and they take those experiences with them to the grave, as was their promise both by verbal declaration and signature, as well as in spirit. As technology improves and our deeper understanding of the human body now at the genome level, it can be said that GM will probably outlive the polygraph itself. Until that PsychoPhysiological device is created though, he HAS a special obligation to have protected the means, methods, sources, and apparatus of the U.S. Intelligence community; and certainly NOT have conversations about same with those who are the clear and historical enemies of the United States. There is a legal, ethical, and moral difference between GM and John Q. Public. He knows that, perhaps you did not. His adding a brick or two to their wall of defenses did not serve us well as Americans. Even if you say that those bricks are insignificant-------Attempts count under the law.
Knowing what I know about polygraphy, and knowing the harm that misplaced reliance on this pseudoscience has and continues to cause to public safety, national security, and individuals, I think it would be immoral and a shirking of civic duty not to speak out. As Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. put it, there comes a time when silence is betrayal.
DON'T CONFUSE THE DOMESTIC CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT FOR EQUALITY DOMESTICALLY IN OUR NATION WITH YOUR COLLABORATING WITH THOSE WHO INTEND US HARM WHETHER THEY BE FOREIGNers OR DOMESTIC Child Molesters. WHEN SILENCE IS BETRAYAL?? HOW ABOUT WHEN JUST PLAIN OLD BETRAYAL IS BETRAYAL. YOU COULD HAVE RUN FOR CONGRESS OR OTHER ELECTED OFFICE !!! YOU COULD HAVE GONE TO LAW SCHOOL !!! YOU COULD HAVE DONE A THOUSAND DIFFERENT THINGS OTHER THAN ATTEMPTING THE COMPROMISING A TOOL OF U.S. INTELLIGENCE FOR THE BENEFIT OF A ROGUE CRIMINAL NATION LIKE IRAN, OR OTHERS WHOM WE FIGHT THAT ARE THEIR PROXIES. YOU SIMPLY DON'T GET TO THINK FOR ALL OF US, AND CERTAINLY NOT YOUR BRETHERAN INTELLIGENCE OFFICERS. YOUR CIVIC DUTY ? I DON'T THINK YOU CAN DO YOUR CIVIC DUTY FROM FOREIGN SOIL !!!!!
In closing let me say that in a lecture I attended a deep seeded point was made that radical Islam has the will, but not the wepons, to us the harm they desire. We, have the weapons, but it appears not the will, to do what is needed to deal with them. Time is the only variable now which will determine who either gets the weapons or the will. My presumption is that WW3 as you have envisioned it will occur if we fail to gain the will to destroy these folks, and then further allow moderate Islam to enter the 21st century.
Who are these folks that you think need destroying?
PICTURE THIS HEAD OF MEDUSA WITH YOUR IRANIAN FRIENDS AS THE BRAIN AND BLOOD SOURCE. THE TENNECLES WOULD BE AL QUEDA, HEZBALLAH, THE PLO, AL-AQSA MATRYS BRIGADE, ANSAR AL-ISLAM, Jama'at al-Tawhid wa'al-Jihad/Al-Qaeda in Iraq, Egyptian Islamic Jihad, Fatah al-Islam, Jemaah Islamiyah, Lashkar-e-Jhangvi - Pakistan, Lashkar-e-Toiba - Pakistan, Moroccan Islamic Combatant Group - Morocco and Spain , Palestinian Islamic Jihad in Israel, Taliban - Afghanistan, Turkish Hezbollah, Takfir wal-Hijra - Egypt/Sudan/Algeria. & Others.
DON'T YOU GET IT ?? THE QUINTESENTIAL QUESTION OF OUR TIME / OUR LIVES IS: WHERE DO YOU STAND ON THE WAR ON TERROR ? I see you standing in the company and embrace of our enemies, and compromising the work of your brother and sister intelligence officers in what has been your hell bent mission of revenge no matter who you have to hurt to try and get that done.
You have ventured beyond academic excercise, and there have been many benchmarks from which you could have changed, but are engrossed on a dangerous path. You may not be in the end salvageable.
See the section Devices Used in Interrogation from the Encyclopedia of Jihad. Although the electronic version is dated 2002, the original print edition pre-dates AntiPolygraph.org.
THIS ANSWER WOULD APPEAR TO BE A DODGE AND WHOLLY INSUFFICIANT AS IT DOES NOT SHOW ANY PRIOR KNOWLEDGE OF COUNTER MEASURE ATTEMPTS OTHER THAN TO SAY IN A NAIVE WAY THAT IF YOU (The Terrorist) DON'T BELIEVE IT THE MACHINE IT WILL NOT WORK ON YOU. WHERE IS THE CM INFORMATON THAT PRE-DATES YOUR SITE TO SHOW YOU DID NOT INSPIRE OR ASSIST THESE PEOPLE AS THE SOLE HUMAN BEING WITH BOTH THE PASSION FOR THIS AND TECHNICAL CAPABILITY TO ASSIST THEM. SO PLEASE, A CM SOURCE MADE AVAILABLE TO THE ENEMIES OF THIS COUNTRY THAT PRECEDES YOUR SITE OR MEETING THEM.
[highlight]Is there even ONE other individual who both speaks, reads, and writes the language of our enemies who placed such things in their hands; and sheepishly wrote about it in what myself and others perceived as bragging (reasonable people may differ on that a bit). [/highlight]
My knowledge of Middle Eastern languages has no bearing on the fact that U.S. adversaries can read English, as the article "The Myth of the Lie Detector" in Al-Fath magazine clearly demonstrates.
THAT THEY CAN READ ENGLISH IS NOT IN QUESTION. THAT YOU WORK WITH THESE PEOPLE, AND CAN NOT DENY SUCH CONVERSATIONS ABOUT CM's WITH THEM POINTS TO YOUR BEING A SOURCE, IF NOT THE SOURCE THAT INSPIRED THESE ARTICLES. DURING THESE APPARANT CONVERSATIONS IN COVERING THAT TOPIC YOU AIDED AND ABETTED THE ENEMIES OF THE UNITED STATES AS SOMEONE WHO HAD IN ALL PRACTICALITY SWORE NOT TO DO SO. THEY HAVE BEEN OUR ENEMY FOR ALL OF YOUR ADULT LIFE, AND YOU DID NOT TELL THEM THIS IN SOME INNOCENT WAY, BUT RATHER YOUR ZEALOUS PASSION ABOUT IT WON OUT OVER YOUR COMMON SENSE.
As I have further pointed out, people who openly admit to being convicted child molesters on probation or parole and who are under court order to be monitored come here for advice in regard to trying to defeat the system. GM provides information he believes will assist them to pass so they can do what
Molest more kids, or empower their minds to do same ? Come on, if you had to pick two catagories of human beings today to NOT associate with for the rest of your life--- I would say that Middle Eastern Radical Islamists and Child Molesters are at or near the top of that list--- and yet they are catered to here. What is the response to this objection ? Only that they are Incidental Viewers !!!! Rediculous !!! If I had a child or grandchild who were molested and that person confessed to the police or anyone else that they came to this sight and were given advice that caused them to continue molesting---- it would be more than them alone I would come after. AntiPolygraph.org makes information about polygraph procedure and countermeasures available to the public to provide the truthful with the means of protecting themselves against a false positive outcome, especially in the context of pre-employment polygraph screening.
ISN'T THIS ALSO SAYING YOU ELECTED TO EQUALLY PROTECT THE LIAR'S WHO HAVE COMMITTED CRIMINAL ACTS ? AREN'T YOU ALSO FROM AN EMPASSIONED VIEW BETRAYING THE PUBLIC WHOM SWORN OFFICERS HAVE A DUTY TO PROTECT, BUT BECAUSE OF YOU MAY HAVE A FALSE NEGATIVE OUTCOME, WHERE THE PERPETRATOR THEN GOES ON TO DO SAME SAID CRIME AGAIN ? SHOULD YOU BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE WHEN IT CAN BE TRACED TO YOU ? SPEAKING FOR MYSELF, IF IT WERE MY GRANDCHILD MOLESTED I WOULD NOT BE AT ALL IMPRESSED BY YOUR ACADEMIC EXCERCISE, BUT RATHER OUT FOR JUSTICE. AN EYE FOR AN EYE.
There is no way of making this information available to those who legitimately need it without making it available to everyone. The ethical considerations involved have been addressed a length in my Response to Paul M. Menges Regarding the Ethical Considerations of Providing Polygraph Countermeasures to the Public."
YOU APPEAR SELF APPOINTED IN DETERMINING "Those who legitimately need it" vs. THOSE WHO GET HURT BY IT. YOU MAY YET HAVE TO ANSWER FOR THAT. THANK YOU FOR BEING ON RECORD THOUGH [/color]
As previously stated TwoBlock, YOU as John Q. Public can / could post such material on the internet; but GM is in fact special. He has an inherant obligation as a person with a PhD to be of a higher caliber, and as a former intelligence officer to see all of the contingencies as they might unfold; and in this case the risks outweighed the perceived benefits when countermeasure advice is given, and to whom.
I think that after being presented with the facts, most objective observers can see that it is the height of folly to continue placing reliance on a pseudoscientific fraud such as polygraph "testing." I think they will also agree that it is immoral for the State to pretend to assess the honesty and integrity of individuals on the basis of such a fraudulent procedure.
I THINK ? I THINK ? PERHAPS YOU DIDN'T THINK WITH A LEVEL HEAD, BUT RATHER AN OBSESSED AND REVENGEFUL ONE !!! SUCH THINGS BEFORE BEING PLACED I THE HANDS OF ENEMIES OF THE UNITED STATES BOTH FOREIGN AND DOMESTIC SHOULD NOT BE DECIDED BY SUCH MEN WHO SWORE AN OATH TO PROTECT THE ASSETTS OF THE INTELLIGENCE COMMUNITY THEY SERVED. IT WAS SIMPLY NOT YOUR DECISION TO MAKE !!!! I BELIEVE THAT YOU NOW NEED SOMETHING NEW TO THINK ABOUT AND OBSESS OVER. MAYBE YOU NEED TO "THINK" ABOUT HOW YOU HAVE INSPIRED THE ENEMIES OF THIS NATION AND CHILD MOLESTING CRIMINALS. HOW MANY CHILDREN ARE YOU WILLING TO RUIN TO HELP THESE MOLESTERS SO THAT YOU CAN CONTINUE WITH I THINK ? IF I WERE ADDRESSIGN YOUR JURY I WOULD ASK THEM WHAT IN THE HELL WERE YOU THINKING ? LADIES AND GENTLEMAN OF THE JURY--- IT IS NOW TIME FOR YOU TO THINK !!!
Historically, the job of an Intelligence Officer is that you enter into a special world wherein what you work on in the singular, or what is in the best interest of the greater intelligence community in the plural, is protected. There are even men today who served in WW 2 who can not write about their actions and work in that war, and they take those experiences with them to the grave, as was their promise both by verbal declaration and signature, as well as in spirit. As technology improves and our deeper understanding of the human body now at the genome level, it can be said that GM will probably outlive the polygraph itself. Until that PsychoPhysiological device is created though, he HAS a special obligation to have protected the means, methods, sources, and apparatus of the U.S. Intelligence community; and certainly NOT have conversations about same with those who are the clear and historical enemies of the United States. There is a legal, ethical, and moral difference between GM and John Q. Public. He knows that, perhaps you did not. His adding a brick or two to their wall of defenses did not serve us well as Americans. Even if you say that those bricks are insignificant-------Attempts count under the law.
Knowing what I know about polygraphy, and knowing the harm that misplaced reliance on this pseudoscience has and continues to cause to public safety, national security, and individuals, I think it would be immoral and a shirking of civic duty not to speak out. As Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. put it, there comes a time when silence is betrayal.
DON'T CONFUSE THE DOMESTIC CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT FOR EQUALITY DOMESTICALLY IN OUR NATION WITH YOUR COLLABORATING WITH THOSE WHO INTEND US HARM WHETHER THEY BE FOREIGNers OR DOMESTIC Child Molesters. WHEN SILENCE IS BETRAYAL
?? HOW ABOUT WHEN JUST PLAIN OLD BETRAYAL IS BETRAYAL. YOU COULD HAVE RUN FOR CONGRESS OR OTHER ELECTED OFFICE !!! YOU COULD HAVE GONE TO LAW SCHOOL !!! YOU COULD HAVE DONE A THOUSAND DIFFERENT THINGS OTHER THAN ATTEMPTING THE COMPROMISING A TOOL OF U.S. INTELLIGENCE FOR THE BENEFIT OF A ROGUE CRIMINAL NATION LIKE IRAN, OR OTHERS WHOM WE FIGHT THAT ARE THEIR PROXIES. YOU SIMPLY DON'T GET TO THINK FOR ALL OF US, AND CERTAINLY NOT YOUR BRETHERAN INTELLIGENCE OFFICERS. YOUR CIVIC DUTY ? I DON'T THINK YOU CAN DO YOUR CIVIC DUTY FROM FOREIGN SOIL !!!!! In closing let me say that in a lecture I attended a deep seeded point was made that radical Islam has the will, but not the wepons, to us the harm they desire. We, have the weapons, but it appears not the will, to do what is needed to deal with them. Time is the only variable now which will determine who either gets the weapons or the will. My presumption is that WW3 as you have envisioned it will occur if we fail to gain the will to destroy these folks, and then further allow moderate Islam to enter the 21st century.
Who are these folks that you think need destroying?
PICTURE THIS HEAD OF MEDUSA WITH YOUR IRANIAN FRIENDS AS THE BRAIN AND BLOOD SOURCE. THE TENNECLES WOULD BE AL QUEDA, HEZBALLAH, THE PLO, AL-AQSA MATRYS BRIGADE, ANSAR AL-ISLAM, Jama'at al-Tawhid wa'al-Jihad/Al-Qaeda in Iraq, Egyptian Islamic Jihad, Fatah al-Islam, Jemaah Islamiyah, Lashkar-e-Jhangvi - Pakistan, Lashkar-e-Toiba - Pakistan, Moroccan Islamic Combatant Group - Morocco and Spain , Palestinian Islamic Jihad in Israel, Taliban - Afghanistan, Turkish Hezbollah, Takfir wal-Hijra - Egypt/Sudan/Algeria. & Others.
DON'T YOU GET IT ?? THE QUINTESENTIAL QUESTION OF OUR TIME / OUR LIVES IS: WHERE DO YOU STAND ON THE WAR ON TERROR ? I see you standing in the company and embrace of our enemies, and compromising the work of your brother and sister intelligence officers in what has been your hell bent mission of revenge no matter who you have to hurt to try and get that done.
You have ventured beyond academic excercise, and there have been many benchmarks from which you could have changed, but are engrossed on a dangerous path. You may not be in the end salvageable.
Posted by George W. Maschke
- Mar 14, 2008, 03:03 AMQuote from: TheNoLieGuy4U on Mar 13, 2008, 07:53 PMCan the moderator point to even one article in the Arab or Persian world that existed prior to the creation of this site, or his job in Holland interacting with Anti-U.S. Iranian personnel ?
See the section Devices Used in Interrogation from the Encyclopedia of Jihad. Although the electronic version is dated 2002, the original print edition pre-dates AntiPolygraph.org.
QuoteIs there even ONE other individual who both speaks, reads, and writes the language of our enemies who placed such things in their hands; and sheepishly wrote about it in what myself and others perceived as bragging (reasonable people may differ on that a bit).
My knowledge of Middle Eastern languages has no bearing on the fact that U.S. adversaries can read English, as the article "The Myth of the Lie Detector" in Al-Fath magazine clearly demonstrates.
QuoteAs I have further pointed out, people who openly admit to being convicted child molesters on probation or parole and who are under court order to be monitored come here for advice in regard to trying to defeat the system. GM provides information he believes will assist them to pass so they can do what
AntiPolygraph.org makes information about polygraph procedure and countermeasures available to the public to provide the truthful with the means of protecting themselves against a false positive outcome, especially in the context of pre-employment polygraph screening. There is no way of making this information available to those who legitimately need it without making it available to everyone. The ethical considerations involved have been addressed a length in my Response to Paul M. Menges Regarding the Ethical Considerations of Providing Polygraph Countermeasures to the Public."
QuoteAs previously stated TwoBlock, YOU as John Q. Public can / could post such material on the internet; but GM is in fact special. He has an inherant obligation as a person with a PhD to be of a higher caliber, and as a former intelligence officer to see all of the contingencies as they might unfold; and in this case the risks outweighed the perceived benefits when countermeasure advice is given, and to whom.
I think that after being presented with the facts, most objective observers can see that it is the height of folly to continue placing reliance on a pseudoscientific fraud such as polygraph "testing." I think they will also agree that it is immoral for the State to pretend to assess the honesty and integrity of individuals on the basis of such a fraudulent procedure.
QuoteHistorically, the job of an Intelligence Officer is that you enter into a special world wherein what you work on in the singular, or what is in the best interest of the greater intelligence community in the plural, is protected. There are even men today who served in WW 2 who can not write about their actions and work in that war, and they take those experiences with them to the grave, as was their promise both by verbal declaration and signature, as well as in spirit. As technology improves and our deeper understanding of the human body now at the genome level, it can be said that GM will probably outlive the polygraph itself. Until that PsychoPhysiological device is created though, he HAS a special obligation to have protected the means, methods, sources, and apparatus of the U.S. Intelligence community; and certainly NOT have conversations about same with those who are the clear and historical enemies of the United States. There is a legal, ethical, and moral difference between GM and John Q. Public. He knows that, perhaps you did not. His adding a brick or two to their wall of defenses did not serve us well as Americans. Even if you say that those bricks are insignificant-------Attempts count under the law.
Knowing what I know about polygraphy, and knowing the harm that misplaced reliance on this pseudoscience has and continues to cause to public safety, national security, and individuals, I think it would be immoral and a shirking of civic duty not to speak out. As Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. put it, there comes a time when silence is betrayal.
QuoteIn closing let me say that in a lecture I attended a deep seeded point was made that radical Islam has the will, but not the wepons, to us the harm they desire. We, have the weapons, but it appears not the will, to do what is needed to deal with them. Time is the only variable now which will determine who either gets the weapons or the will. My presumption is that WW3 as you have envisioned it will occur if we fail to gain the will to destroy these folks, and then further allow moderate Islam to enter the 21st century.
Who are these folks that you think need destroying?
Posted by TheNoLieGuy4U
- Mar 13, 2008, 07:53 PM TwoBlock,
We all need a job and that includes George. He has found in the world marketplace a way in which to prosper from his skillset. Fine. This job serves the function of the U.N. and not necessarily the United States; and even if it were so, has very little to show for it's existence given how far apart the two sides are in their world view. That he performs this job, and I'm sure very well, does not upset me. That he has exposed himself to these individuals as an Intelligence Officer does. That he further fails to deny sharing with them in verbal conversations about defeating his country's intelligence tools also does. That the articles he points to were created from he as a source in whole or in part does. That these articles are traceable back to the geographic area country (Iraq via Iran, & Afghanistan) where U.S. military personnel fight and die does. Can the moderator point to even one article in the Arab or Persian world that existed prior to the creation of this site, or his job in Holland interacting with Anti-U.S. Iranian personnel ? Is there even ONE other individual who both speaks, reads, and writes the language of our enemies who placed such things in their hands; and sheepishly wrote about it in what myself and others perceived as bragging (reasonable people may differ on that a bit). As I have further pointed out, people who openly admit to being convicted child molesters on probation or parole and who are under court order to be monitored come here for advice in regard to trying to defeat the system. GM provides information he believes will assist them to pass so they can do what Molest more kids, or empower their minds to do same ? Come on, if you had to pick two catagories of human beings today to NOT associate with for the rest of your life--- I would say that Middle Eastern Radical Islamists and Child Molesters are at or near the top of that list--- and yet they are catered to here. What is the response to this objection ? Only that they are Incidental Viewers !!!! Rediculous !!! If I had a child or grandchild who were molested and that person confessed to the police or anyone else that they came to this sight and were given advice that caused them to continue molesting---- it would be more than them alone I would come after.
As previously stated TwoBlock, YOU as John Q. Public can / could post such material on the internet; but GM is in fact special. He has an inherant obligation as a person with a PhD to be of a higher caliber, and as a former intelligence officer to see all of the contingencies as they might unfold; and in this case the risks outweighed the perceived benefits when countermeasure advice is given, and to whom.
Historically, the job of an Intelligence Officer is that you enter into a special world wherein what you work on in the singular, or what is in the best interest of the greater intelligence community in the plural, is protected. There are even men today who served in WW 2 who can not write about their actions and work in that war, and they take those experiences with them to the grave, as was their promise both by verbal declaration and signature, as well as in spirit. As technology improves and our deeper understanding of the human body now at the genome level, it can be said that GM will probably outlive the polygraph itself. Until that PsychoPhysiological device is created though, he HAS a special obligation to have protected the means, methods, sources, and apparatus of the U.S. Intelligence community; and certainly NOT have conversations about same with those who are the clear and historical enemies of the United States. There is a legal, ethical, and moral difference between GM and John Q. Public. He knows that, perhaps you did not. His adding a brick or two to their wall of defenses did not serve us well as Americans. Even if you say that those bricks are insignificant-------Attempts count under the law.
In closing let me say that in a lecture I attended a deep seeded point was made that radical Islam has the will, but not the wepons, to us the harm they desire. We, have the weapons, but it appears not the will, to do what is needed to deal with them. Time is the only variable now which will determine who either gets the weapons or the will. My presumption is that WW3 as you have envisioned it will occur if we fail to gain the will to destroy these folks, and then further allow moderate Islam to enter the 21st century.
FOOD FOR THOUGHT, AND YOU DON'T FEED YOUR ENEMY !
Best Regards
We all need a job and that includes George. He has found in the world marketplace a way in which to prosper from his skillset. Fine. This job serves the function of the U.N. and not necessarily the United States; and even if it were so, has very little to show for it's existence given how far apart the two sides are in their world view. That he performs this job, and I'm sure very well, does not upset me. That he has exposed himself to these individuals as an Intelligence Officer does. That he further fails to deny sharing with them in verbal conversations about defeating his country's intelligence tools also does. That the articles he points to were created from he as a source in whole or in part does. That these articles are traceable back to the geographic area country (Iraq via Iran, & Afghanistan) where U.S. military personnel fight and die does. Can the moderator point to even one article in the Arab or Persian world that existed prior to the creation of this site, or his job in Holland interacting with Anti-U.S. Iranian personnel ? Is there even ONE other individual who both speaks, reads, and writes the language of our enemies who placed such things in their hands; and sheepishly wrote about it in what myself and others perceived as bragging (reasonable people may differ on that a bit). As I have further pointed out, people who openly admit to being convicted child molesters on probation or parole and who are under court order to be monitored come here for advice in regard to trying to defeat the system. GM provides information he believes will assist them to pass so they can do what
Molest more kids, or empower their minds to do same ? Come on, if you had to pick two catagories of human beings today to NOT associate with for the rest of your life--- I would say that Middle Eastern Radical Islamists and Child Molesters are at or near the top of that list--- and yet they are catered to here. What is the response to this objection ? Only that they are Incidental Viewers !!!! Rediculous !!! If I had a child or grandchild who were molested and that person confessed to the police or anyone else that they came to this sight and were given advice that caused them to continue molesting---- it would be more than them alone I would come after. As previously stated TwoBlock, YOU as John Q. Public can / could post such material on the internet; but GM is in fact special. He has an inherant obligation as a person with a PhD to be of a higher caliber, and as a former intelligence officer to see all of the contingencies as they might unfold; and in this case the risks outweighed the perceived benefits when countermeasure advice is given, and to whom.
Historically, the job of an Intelligence Officer is that you enter into a special world wherein what you work on in the singular, or what is in the best interest of the greater intelligence community in the plural, is protected. There are even men today who served in WW 2 who can not write about their actions and work in that war, and they take those experiences with them to the grave, as was their promise both by verbal declaration and signature, as well as in spirit. As technology improves and our deeper understanding of the human body now at the genome level, it can be said that GM will probably outlive the polygraph itself. Until that PsychoPhysiological device is created though, he HAS a special obligation to have protected the means, methods, sources, and apparatus of the U.S. Intelligence community; and certainly NOT have conversations about same with those who are the clear and historical enemies of the United States. There is a legal, ethical, and moral difference between GM and John Q. Public. He knows that, perhaps you did not. His adding a brick or two to their wall of defenses did not serve us well as Americans. Even if you say that those bricks are insignificant-------Attempts count under the law.
In closing let me say that in a lecture I attended a deep seeded point was made that radical Islam has the will, but not the wepons, to us the harm they desire. We, have the weapons, but it appears not the will, to do what is needed to deal with them. Time is the only variable now which will determine who either gets the weapons or the will. My presumption is that WW3 as you have envisioned it will occur if we fail to gain the will to destroy these folks, and then further allow moderate Islam to enter the 21st century.
FOOD FOR THOUGHT, AND YOU DON'T FEED YOUR ENEMY !
Best Regards
Posted by Twoblock
- Mar 13, 2008, 05:27 PMTheNoLieGuy4U
You said that it has been mentioned several times that George is working with the Iran-U. S. Claims Tribunal in some capacity. My first thought is, since the two countries shares no diplomatic relations, that he is translating official documents between the two. I believe the U. S. has frozen some Iranian assets. If this is what he is doing, then to me, it's a nobal job. As I said, I do not know what his job is and would never ask even a PM. However, he travels frequently to this country so he posses the necessary documents to do this.
I have no use for Islam what so ever because there will be an Islamic war (WW-3) since it was designed many, many years ago by the powers that design wars.
At present, it appears to me that you and others are out to do whatever you can to destroy the man because of his website. Prove me wrong.
I will let this subject alone from now on because it serves no useful purpose to keep jawing about it. All has been said that needs to be said. Besides, I have over stepped the boundery of what this site is about with my political utterings and I appoligize to George for doing so.
You said that it has been mentioned several times that George is working with the Iran-U. S. Claims Tribunal in some capacity. My first thought is, since the two countries shares no diplomatic relations, that he is translating official documents between the two. I believe the U. S. has frozen some Iranian assets. If this is what he is doing, then to me, it's a nobal job. As I said, I do not know what his job is and would never ask even a PM. However, he travels frequently to this country so he posses the necessary documents to do this.
I have no use for Islam what so ever because there will be an Islamic war (WW-3) since it was designed many, many years ago by the powers that design wars.
At present, it appears to me that you and others are out to do whatever you can to destroy the man because of his website. Prove me wrong.
I will let this subject alone from now on because it serves no useful purpose to keep jawing about it. All has been said that needs to be said. Besides, I have over stepped the boundery of what this site is about with my political utterings and I appoligize to George for doing so.
Posted by TheNoLieGuy4U
- Mar 13, 2008, 03:27 PM TwoBlock,
YOU SAID: "Are you trying to tell me that a failed FBI poly isn't a factor in the hiring process when the applicant is trying for other LE jobs? Do you think that the many, many posters here are lying when they say it was? "
I SAY: The fact is that in the law enforcement community TODAY in 2008, there has never been a greater demand for applicants from generation X, as generation Y is retiring out rapidly. Agencies which used to have policies of one having to reside in a certain area to even be an applicant, have loosened them, as they will take applicants practically from Mars if need be. They really don't care how an applicant performed at some earlier time on another examiner's polygraph test, as they are footing the bill for Their Examiner to test the applicant NOW, and only care that the person be fully truthful and passes + looking at their admissions as to if said admissions would keep them from fulfilling the credibility test on the witness stand later. As you may know, an Officer's testimony is the crown jewel which supports their reports, evidence collected, and observations made in the field. That really is the bottom line. Your example of the Sgt. here is proof alone of that.
In regard to your referencing the moderator's, or any other persons, prior FBI or other agency pre-employment screening, don't be confused about someone's failure to complete a process successfully (as opposed to those who did) with someone who instantly becomes a priority case or something. That the moderator, or any other person, simply applied with an agency, and failed to clear is not on par with someone who is regarded as an active threat in a specific case being developed. This is clearly the case as GM did in fact finish out his career as a Reserve Officer. It would be proper for the FBI doing due dillagence to forward any concern to the Dept. of the Army, and for any follow up they would do internally to satisfy themselves the the maintanence of a security clearance. That is not the same as testing an active known threat. You have to see the priority difference. One is a passive case vs. active cases you are thinking of. Save your dollar then, as a donut is a treat you'll enjoy later.
YOU SAID: "As I have said I know nothing about George's job. However, you are strongly accusing him of aiding the enemy. To have any credibility, you should tell us how you know this and show us proof of the accusations. If you can, then I doubt that many of us would stay with this website. Otherwise you are guilty of character assassination which is an actionable offence."
I SAY: Thank You for your honesty in wanting to evaluate the moderator and whether you and others would remain on this site if there were truth to what I have questioned here to him.
Last night I posed the question directly and plainly to GM the moderator as to whether or not he had ever translated any Anti-Polygraph materials into Arabic or Farsi. He denied having ever done so in a quick reply. Whey I further asked as a follow up question as to if he had "Verbally" had discussed (Trained, Informed, Etc.) Anti-Polygraph / countermeasures with any middle eastern foreign national his reply, rather than NO, was rather that it was none of my business !!! Since I can't take that as a NO, I will say it is more probably a YES ! Point Two; George is mentioned several times on the internet as working in the Iran-United States Claims Tribunal in some capacity in the Hague. I believe this to be a U.N. effort www.iusct.org/ where he has almost daily contact with radical Iranian government officials which has it's allegience to the U.N., and not to the USA. The U.S. has not had formal diplomatic relations with Iran since 11/04/79 when our embassy was invaded in what is otherwise regarded as an act of war. Our hostages were later released on 1/20/81 on Reagan's first day in office. This body, in my limited understanding of it, exists to negotiate cross claims Iran and the U.S. have both for individuals and corporatons, and other concerns. GM is an assett to that effort, which, 27 plus years later has accomplished little in holding radical Iran accountable for its actions. They are a worse regime today than when they came to power. Further, that GM can not say he has never discussed or informed people of this background (Iranian or other radical middle eastern types) about anti-polygraph / countermeasure information, which clearly would have no less than inspired the articles he claims were written. I have simply connected the dots between who it is that is empassioned about this subject, who they are in contact with, and that he tells me itis none of my business that he has had at least some conversations about it with them; presumed so when he can not deny same. You and I as tax payers paid for his education in these languages at the Dept. of Defense schools, which he now uses as an assett against our nations best interests. It is not in question that Iran is the Mother of Hezballah and other terrorist groups, an Al Queda ally, as well as a medusa of other groups yet to surface. We both acknowlege he is an intelligent individual, and therefore had to know when these converstatons took place who would benefit, or who would suffer a loss. Maybe I'm alone, but I regard those acts as undermining U.S. Intelligence for whom he spoke and signed an oath. Remember, He believes these countermeasures work, and apparantly passed those along to the known enemies, or at least anti-U.S., personnel on foreign soil. I don't know if his position enjoys Diplomatic Immunity or not, but if so it would be from the Dutch, and not from the USA. Agan I say, such things are for Judges, Attorneys, and a Jury to figure out. I only ask the academic question about all of these variables. Don't even get me started on the open acceptance on this site of the alliance with self admitted child molesters in undermining a Judge's orders for their compliance and monitoring while on probation. That advice strikes me as being in comtempt of court. Maybe my mind is just that of an everyday family man, common sense kind of guy, and not a part of this new world order where anything goes without consequences at the end of the day. Just call me old fashioned.
It sounds like you have a very interesting hobby. I think that you would find that unlike what you have written, polygraph examiners do have to answer within their own system in QC, and to where they could justify a fellow examiner would reach the same decision if they were challenged on a call / charts.
In regard to the twin towers, place that punch on the chin of radical Islam where it belongs. There are 26 armed world conflicts going on at this moment in the world, 24 of which involve radical Islam not being able to live peaceably with their neighbors. The core of the funding for much of this is Iran and Syria as derived from petro dollars, and so maybe now you understand if little old me can understand all of that, I expect same from the moderator who looks into their eyes and talks with them as a job.
In regard to the paragraph about "assasination", I did not wish to attack you in any way, and only wanted it clear that the first noun used associated with violence did not come from me, and that it was from a poster who assumed the lowest common denominator, rather than a broader spectrum of possibilities. Nobody I know advocates the "assasination" of an unarmed person / non-combatent. Rather, only due process of law in a civilized setting. Punishments are handed out by those in power to do so.
YOU SAID: "Are you trying to tell me that a failed FBI poly isn't a factor in the hiring process when the applicant is trying for other LE jobs? Do you think that the many, many posters here are lying when they say it was? "
I SAY: The fact is that in the law enforcement community TODAY in 2008, there has never been a greater demand for applicants from generation X, as generation Y is retiring out rapidly. Agencies which used to have policies of one having to reside in a certain area to even be an applicant, have loosened them, as they will take applicants practically from Mars if need be. They really don't care how an applicant performed at some earlier time on another examiner's polygraph test, as they are footing the bill for Their Examiner to test the applicant NOW, and only care that the person be fully truthful and passes + looking at their admissions as to if said admissions would keep them from fulfilling the credibility test on the witness stand later. As you may know, an Officer's testimony is the crown jewel which supports their reports, evidence collected, and observations made in the field. That really is the bottom line. Your example of the Sgt. here is proof alone of that.
In regard to your referencing the moderator's, or any other persons, prior FBI or other agency pre-employment screening, don't be confused about someone's failure to complete a process successfully (as opposed to those who did) with someone who instantly becomes a priority case or something. That the moderator, or any other person, simply applied with an agency, and failed to clear is not on par with someone who is regarded as an active threat in a specific case being developed. This is clearly the case as GM did in fact finish out his career as a Reserve Officer. It would be proper for the FBI doing due dillagence to forward any concern to the Dept. of the Army, and for any follow up they would do internally to satisfy themselves the the maintanence of a security clearance. That is not the same as testing an active known threat. You have to see the priority difference. One is a passive case vs. active cases you are thinking of. Save your dollar then, as a donut is a treat you'll enjoy later.
YOU SAID: "As I have said I know nothing about George's job. However, you are strongly accusing him of aiding the enemy. To have any credibility, you should tell us how you know this and show us proof of the accusations. If you can, then I doubt that many of us would stay with this website. Otherwise you are guilty of character assassination which is an actionable offence."
I SAY: Thank You for your honesty in wanting to evaluate the moderator and whether you and others would remain on this site if there were truth to what I have questioned here to him.
Last night I posed the question directly and plainly to GM the moderator as to whether or not he had ever translated any Anti-Polygraph materials into Arabic or Farsi. He denied having ever done so in a quick reply. Whey I further asked as a follow up question as to if he had "Verbally" had discussed (Trained, Informed, Etc.) Anti-Polygraph / countermeasures with any middle eastern foreign national his reply, rather than NO, was rather that it was none of my business !!! Since I can't take that as a NO, I will say it is more probably a YES ! Point Two; George is mentioned several times on the internet as working in the Iran-United States Claims Tribunal in some capacity in the Hague. I believe this to be a U.N. effort www.iusct.org/ where he has almost daily contact with radical Iranian government officials which has it's allegience to the U.N., and not to the USA. The U.S. has not had formal diplomatic relations with Iran since 11/04/79 when our embassy was invaded in what is otherwise regarded as an act of war. Our hostages were later released on 1/20/81 on Reagan's first day in office. This body, in my limited understanding of it, exists to negotiate cross claims Iran and the U.S. have both for individuals and corporatons, and other concerns. GM is an assett to that effort, which, 27 plus years later has accomplished little in holding radical Iran accountable for its actions. They are a worse regime today than when they came to power. Further, that GM can not say he has never discussed or informed people of this background (Iranian or other radical middle eastern types) about anti-polygraph / countermeasure information, which clearly would have no less than inspired the articles he claims were written. I have simply connected the dots between who it is that is empassioned about this subject, who they are in contact with, and that he tells me itis none of my business that he has had at least some conversations about it with them; presumed so when he can not deny same. You and I as tax payers paid for his education in these languages at the Dept. of Defense schools, which he now uses as an assett against our nations best interests. It is not in question that Iran is the Mother of Hezballah and other terrorist groups, an Al Queda ally, as well as a medusa of other groups yet to surface. We both acknowlege he is an intelligent individual, and therefore had to know when these converstatons took place who would benefit, or who would suffer a loss. Maybe I'm alone, but I regard those acts as undermining U.S. Intelligence for whom he spoke and signed an oath. Remember, He believes these countermeasures work, and apparantly passed those along to the known enemies, or at least anti-U.S., personnel on foreign soil. I don't know if his position enjoys Diplomatic Immunity or not, but if so it would be from the Dutch, and not from the USA. Agan I say, such things are for Judges, Attorneys, and a Jury to figure out. I only ask the academic question about all of these variables. Don't even get me started on the open acceptance on this site of the alliance with self admitted child molesters in undermining a Judge's orders for their compliance and monitoring while on probation. That advice strikes me as being in comtempt of court. Maybe my mind is just that of an everyday family man, common sense kind of guy, and not a part of this new world order where anything goes without consequences at the end of the day. Just call me old fashioned.
It sounds like you have a very interesting hobby. I think that you would find that unlike what you have written, polygraph examiners do have to answer within their own system in QC, and to where they could justify a fellow examiner would reach the same decision if they were challenged on a call / charts.
In regard to the twin towers, place that punch on the chin of radical Islam where it belongs. There are 26 armed world conflicts going on at this moment in the world, 24 of which involve radical Islam not being able to live peaceably with their neighbors. The core of the funding for much of this is Iran and Syria as derived from petro dollars, and so maybe now you understand if little old me can understand all of that, I expect same from the moderator who looks into their eyes and talks with them as a job.
In regard to the paragraph about "assasination", I did not wish to attack you in any way, and only wanted it clear that the first noun used associated with violence did not come from me, and that it was from a poster who assumed the lowest common denominator, rather than a broader spectrum of possibilities. Nobody I know advocates the "assasination" of an unarmed person / non-combatent. Rather, only due process of law in a civilized setting. Punishments are handed out by those in power to do so.
Posted by Twoblock
- Mar 13, 2008, 10:54 AMTheNoLieGuy4U
Are you trying to tell me that a failed FBI poly isn't a factor in the hiring process when the applicant is trying for other LE jobs? Do you think that the many, many posters here are lying when they say it was?
Subversion has always been a priority in our Intel. com. Especially when it entails military personnel. I'll bet a dollar to a donut that if the FBI thought George was a subversive, they would have at least turned that information over to the army and, if proven, he would have been dishonorably discharged. As I have said I know nothing about George's job. However, you are strongly accusing him of aiding the enemy. To have any credibility, you should tell us how you know this and show us proof of the accusations. If you can, then I doubt that many of us would stay with this website. Otherwise you are guilty of character assassination which is an actionable offence.
If you had researched my past posts, you would know that my hobby, over the past 40 years, has been to find and expose government and corporate corruption. I was totally responsible for closing one corrupt corp. that dealt with government contracts. That's why I'm so hard on Washington politicians. Most of them are corrupt. I am sick and tired of us taxpayers being ripped off. Why I'm anti-poly is that it's a one man one machine judge and jury in the hiring process. One fails the Intel. poly, his/her LE career has ended for the most part. The good sargent, who posts here, is an exception. He was hell bent on becoming a LEO. He had to take 4 polys before he passed one and I firmly believe he told the truth on all 4. Therefore, the first 3 was a waiste of taxpayer money.
As to federal agencies not communicating, you are correct. If they had, the towers might still be standing. Is this subversion? Mueller just admitted to a senate committee that the FBI illegally wire-tapped millions of Americans. This was ordered by the President (I'm a conservative Rep.) under the guise of homeland security when it was a "big brother Globalist act". Is this subversion? It's at least a violation of the Constitution. Will anyone be prosecuted for this violation? Hell no!!
I may not be posting much until Fall. I have been recruited to spend another summer in Alaska training personnel in the art of mining gold. For an honest corp. I might add.
BTW. On another post you accused me again of advocating George's assassination. You should stop this. I have explained that I was asking you if that was your suggestion in your statement "or other".
Are you trying to tell me that a failed FBI poly isn't a factor in the hiring process when the applicant is trying for other LE jobs? Do you think that the many, many posters here are lying when they say it was?
Subversion has always been a priority in our Intel. com. Especially when it entails military personnel. I'll bet a dollar to a donut that if the FBI thought George was a subversive, they would have at least turned that information over to the army and, if proven, he would have been dishonorably discharged. As I have said I know nothing about George's job. However, you are strongly accusing him of aiding the enemy. To have any credibility, you should tell us how you know this and show us proof of the accusations. If you can, then I doubt that many of us would stay with this website. Otherwise you are guilty of character assassination which is an actionable offence.
If you had researched my past posts, you would know that my hobby, over the past 40 years, has been to find and expose government and corporate corruption. I was totally responsible for closing one corrupt corp. that dealt with government contracts. That's why I'm so hard on Washington politicians. Most of them are corrupt. I am sick and tired of us taxpayers being ripped off. Why I'm anti-poly is that it's a one man one machine judge and jury in the hiring process. One fails the Intel. poly, his/her LE career has ended for the most part. The good sargent, who posts here, is an exception. He was hell bent on becoming a LEO. He had to take 4 polys before he passed one and I firmly believe he told the truth on all 4. Therefore, the first 3 was a waiste of taxpayer money.
As to federal agencies not communicating, you are correct. If they had, the towers might still be standing. Is this subversion? Mueller just admitted to a senate committee that the FBI illegally wire-tapped millions of Americans. This was ordered by the President (I'm a conservative Rep.) under the guise of homeland security when it was a "big brother Globalist act". Is this subversion? It's at least a violation of the Constitution. Will anyone be prosecuted for this violation? Hell no!!
I may not be posting much until Fall. I have been recruited to spend another summer in Alaska training personnel in the art of mining gold. For an honest corp. I might add.
BTW. On another post you accused me again of advocating George's assassination. You should stop this. I have explained that I was asking you if that was your suggestion in your statement "or other".
Posted by TheNoLieGuy4U
- Mar 12, 2008, 08:31 PM TwoBlock,
I appreciate you have an eight year investment on this site, and that you view George as a victim whether that be founded or not. The comparisons you ask as to why a particular agency did or did not do something comes down to priorities. We don't know in the time frame of reference what other priorities took precedent, and you are taking GM's version as gospel. He represented Trimarco as professional in what otherwise may have been a normal work day for him. Between You and GM you have wondered why GM was NOT more of a priority, and I can not account for that. I acknowlege GM's unique talents and education, but also see clearly that had he not jumped the gun and turned on his breatheren that the government would have come to him in the war on terror, rather than the creation of this site which is seen as not only Anti-polygraph; but viewed as Anti-U.S. Government. The fact it is done from foreign soil makes it all the worse. Further, that GM is involved in ongoing contact with foreign nationals who are themselves anti-U.S., and their acquired knowledge of how to attempt distortion in a polygraph, is inconsistent with an oath that most of us feel is a life long commitment; in our words, deeds, writings, and actions. YOU as John Q. Public could do so, but a former Intelligence Officer has a more sacred commitment.
That GM did NOT move forward in the process with the FBI, or seperately with LAPD are not necessarily connected. We can't get many of the Federal agancies to talk to each other, and so the presumption the FBI and LAPD are in constant communication is a long stretch. I find it hard to believe that those two examiners, at two different levels of government, would have any need to talk to one another, as their caseloads are different. They tend to be internally oriented and not externally so. Also, remember that GM was applying for a job, not being tested specifically as a subversive, so no arrest was ever pending in either test. Therefore, no arrest(s) ever contimplated.
I have tried to point out that the one common denominator that I see occuring on this site is that posters here show a common theme in "They did not pick me despite a contingency offer of hire", and that somehow that agency allowed the job to go unfulfilled due to the polygraph outcome. We can all agree that the agency has its own selfish interest and needs that it gets met, and that somebody perhaps better qualified got the job as it was most certainly filled. Therefore, the Ego of many of these postings bothers me. I have wondered if any of those not hired ever took the time or effort to go meet who WAS picked when and where possible. I would want to know WHO beat me out in this competative world and why. Maybe many fine applicants are / were processed who were well qualified, but due to consent decrees or affirmative action, or other goals, variables unknown to the applicant; they were not picked. The polygraph is but one rung in the ladder. For many law enforcement applicants, you can go ALL the way through the steps, and simply have your name put on a list which expires after a year or so, and then have to repeat the process after that expiration.
In regard to the old fashioned investigation you have referred to, that is nice in a theoretical world, but agencies have budgets, and only the treasury department can print up money, but not for their own use.
You will forgive my not being familiar with the law of the sea treaty, but let me just say I am not for our nation giving up our sovereignty to anyone, and especially not to the U.N.. That treaty though, if it is being forced rough shot into existance, if not the same as the use of the polygraph which has had and can show incremental progress over time as with other technology or processes. Logically, in the free market, our government would buy something which could do the job better, but do date that apparatus has not appeared. Good Men and Women, like you and your wife, work in the polygraph field, and to demonize them and their job creates a Machiavelian "Us or Them" mentality that is only a side track. I guess I just hate to see anybody with a fine mind not use that gift to actually CREATE something, rather than destroy something. Ask yourself this !! , if the same energy that is put into this site were put into creativity, then either the polygraph process would be improved, or surpassed. Example; One such individual who has been accepted in all of the U.S. Circuit courts is Dr. Lawrence Farwell with so called Brain Fingerprinting. A guy like that just doesn't have time for negativity, and is rather a pioneer. GM has / or had that capability at such a PhD level, but instead went negative. What is the real reward of that ?
I appreciate you have an eight year investment on this site, and that you view George as a victim whether that be founded or not. The comparisons you ask as to why a particular agency did or did not do something comes down to priorities. We don't know in the time frame of reference what other priorities took precedent, and you are taking GM's version as gospel. He represented Trimarco as professional in what otherwise may have been a normal work day for him. Between You and GM you have wondered why GM was NOT more of a priority, and I can not account for that. I acknowlege GM's unique talents and education, but also see clearly that had he not jumped the gun and turned on his breatheren that the government would have come to him in the war on terror, rather than the creation of this site which is seen as not only Anti-polygraph; but viewed as Anti-U.S. Government. The fact it is done from foreign soil makes it all the worse. Further, that GM is involved in ongoing contact with foreign nationals who are themselves anti-U.S., and their acquired knowledge of how to attempt distortion in a polygraph, is inconsistent with an oath that most of us feel is a life long commitment; in our words, deeds, writings, and actions. YOU as John Q. Public could do so, but a former Intelligence Officer has a more sacred commitment.
That GM did NOT move forward in the process with the FBI, or seperately with LAPD are not necessarily connected. We can't get many of the Federal agancies to talk to each other, and so the presumption the FBI and LAPD are in constant communication is a long stretch. I find it hard to believe that those two examiners, at two different levels of government, would have any need to talk to one another, as their caseloads are different. They tend to be internally oriented and not externally so. Also, remember that GM was applying for a job, not being tested specifically as a subversive, so no arrest was ever pending in either test. Therefore, no arrest(s) ever contimplated.
I have tried to point out that the one common denominator that I see occuring on this site is that posters here show a common theme in "They did not pick me despite a contingency offer of hire", and that somehow that agency allowed the job to go unfulfilled due to the polygraph outcome. We can all agree that the agency has its own selfish interest and needs that it gets met, and that somebody perhaps better qualified got the job as it was most certainly filled. Therefore, the Ego of many of these postings bothers me. I have wondered if any of those not hired ever took the time or effort to go meet who WAS picked when and where possible. I would want to know WHO beat me out in this competative world and why. Maybe many fine applicants are / were processed who were well qualified, but due to consent decrees or affirmative action, or other goals, variables unknown to the applicant; they were not picked. The polygraph is but one rung in the ladder. For many law enforcement applicants, you can go ALL the way through the steps, and simply have your name put on a list which expires after a year or so, and then have to repeat the process after that expiration.
In regard to the old fashioned investigation you have referred to, that is nice in a theoretical world, but agencies have budgets, and only the treasury department can print up money, but not for their own use.
You will forgive my not being familiar with the law of the sea treaty, but let me just say I am not for our nation giving up our sovereignty to anyone, and especially not to the U.N.. That treaty though, if it is being forced rough shot into existance, if not the same as the use of the polygraph which has had and can show incremental progress over time as with other technology or processes. Logically, in the free market, our government would buy something which could do the job better, but do date that apparatus has not appeared. Good Men and Women, like you and your wife, work in the polygraph field, and to demonize them and their job creates a Machiavelian "Us or Them" mentality that is only a side track. I guess I just hate to see anybody with a fine mind not use that gift to actually CREATE something, rather than destroy something. Ask yourself this !! , if the same energy that is put into this site were put into creativity, then either the polygraph process would be improved, or surpassed. Example; One such individual who has been accepted in all of the U.S. Circuit courts is Dr. Lawrence Farwell with so called Brain Fingerprinting. A guy like that just doesn't have time for negativity, and is rather a pioneer. GM has / or had that capability at such a PhD level, but instead went negative. What is the real reward of that ?
Posted by Twoblock
- Mar 12, 2008, 12:23 PMTheNoLieGuy4U
Thanks for the kind words in your first paragraph.
George and I go back, on the net, about 8 years. It seems to me if he was aiding the enemy as much as you accuse, he would already have been contacted by an Intel. agency even though he is in Holland. Further, if my memory serves correctly, Trimarco failed him on all relevant question. That's not the norm is it? Him being a military intelligence officer and the type of subversive and dope questions he was asked, why wasn't he arrested on the spot? The least that should have happened, if the FBI thought he was guilty and evidently they didn't think so, is he should have been drummed out of the military. Yet he remained in and retired. I believe he failed the LAPD poly simply and totally because of the failed FBI poly. And yes, that seems to happen all too frequently. I will not believe that a large percentage of posters on these boards, including long term police officers, who state their poly failures, are liars.
Osama and his henchmen doesn't need George to translate from english to arabic and farsi. They have some pretty good tranlators themselves. He believes, as well as the rest of the anti crowd, that our Intel. Agencies relies too heavely on the polygraph given its error rate. What ever happened to the old fashion investigation?
Apparently you were a federal investigator therefore, instead of spending so much time and energy ranting the same old accusations over and over and offering no proof, why don't you turn that time and energy helping to fight the Globalist agenda of our elected officials in Washington. I'm talking about the UN's: Law of the Sea Treaty (see my posts on Off Topic Posts). That is much more detrimental to this country than this site could ever be. It is real (John Cornyn R. Texas has written a detailed report about its danger) and if passed will make this nation a third world country or lower. I know the Globalist movement is a subject, when brought up, is immediately changed and the media won't touch it because they are a part of it. Ron Paul has tried but they quickly shut him up. It's a cause worthy of attention.
Thanks for the kind words in your first paragraph.
George and I go back, on the net, about 8 years. It seems to me if he was aiding the enemy as much as you accuse, he would already have been contacted by an Intel. agency even though he is in Holland. Further, if my memory serves correctly, Trimarco failed him on all relevant question. That's not the norm is it? Him being a military intelligence officer and the type of subversive and dope questions he was asked, why wasn't he arrested on the spot? The least that should have happened, if the FBI thought he was guilty and evidently they didn't think so, is he should have been drummed out of the military. Yet he remained in and retired. I believe he failed the LAPD poly simply and totally because of the failed FBI poly. And yes, that seems to happen all too frequently. I will not believe that a large percentage of posters on these boards, including long term police officers, who state their poly failures, are liars.
Osama and his henchmen doesn't need George to translate from english to arabic and farsi. They have some pretty good tranlators themselves. He believes, as well as the rest of the anti crowd, that our Intel. Agencies relies too heavely on the polygraph given its error rate. What ever happened to the old fashion investigation?
Apparently you were a federal investigator therefore, instead of spending so much time and energy ranting the same old accusations over and over and offering no proof, why don't you turn that time and energy helping to fight the Globalist agenda of our elected officials in Washington. I'm talking about the UN's: Law of the Sea Treaty (see my posts on Off Topic Posts). That is much more detrimental to this country than this site could ever be. It is real (John Cornyn R. Texas has written a detailed report about its danger) and if passed will make this nation a third world country or lower. I know the Globalist movement is a subject, when brought up, is immediately changed and the media won't touch it because they are a part of it. Ron Paul has tried but they quickly shut him up. It's a cause worthy of attention.
Posted by TheNoLieGuy4U
- Mar 12, 2008, 12:07 AM TwoBlock,
Thank You for your civility, except for the last sentence. I commend your wife, you, and the sacrafices the two of you have made to see her through toward her goal for PhD in Engineering, a true hard science PhD. I'm sure your family will be all the more blessed for it upon her completion.
To tell you the truth it would appear to be an unresolved issue regarding Ed Gelb's PhD. My original point still stands though that it is not a variable in the equation of his actual ability to do a polygraph test in any phase. Other than some research types, most Federal Examiners will have a Bachelors like you, and many have their Masters. Still they are belittled on a daily basis here as if they were buffoons. I think what bothers the moderator most is that his soft PhD in middle eastern languages did him little good against an FBI agent, or a seasoned Police Examiner at LAPD. Further, while he admittedly has some unique qualifications and talents to offer, he was not the only assett out there from which they had to choose. Obversely, the moderator's PhD (Assumed Real) may or may not be going to waste, but his childish sole blame of the polygraph fails to account for other variables like good old competition.
So then, that Ed Gelb's, or anyone else's PhD is real or not, or that George's PhD is relavent or not in the consideration of the polygraph are two insignificant variables to me. Ed never did a BETTER test due to the title of PhD, regardless of that title's status; as the skills he brought into the room came from some long hard years as a Police Officer at LAPD as well as in private practice. He is by any measur successful. GM on the other hand, is living the life of a tunnel visioned zealot who chose to betray his fellow brotherhood / sisterhood of intelligence officers in both the spirit and reality of the oath he took which has been covered on this site. His timing in life was such that despite all of his studies amounted to what other than the plaque on the wall and title after his name. I'll tell you !! Based on not being able to handle rejection he went off the deep end, whereas had he not acted out as he did his country would have given him a shot REGARDLESS of his polygraph with perhaps a half dozen different agencies. He knows well that such agencies act first in the NEEDS of the nation, and his language skills would have broght him into the world of HUMINT to this day. Actions speak louder than words, and his actions are / were unsat. So now he sits in Holland with this once in a lifetime opportunity having passed him by, and by his own hand to leave him ponder what could have been. He did not stop there though, he made himself the patron Saint of Child Molesters who openly identfy themselves as such on this site and he does not care that he is a defacto assistant to them to act out again, and perhaps next time with your child or mine. Further, you too should read the piece he did on Al Queda and ask yourself just who passively assisted them at the very least, and who potentially had the ability to explain all of this to them in their own languages oral and written, if so, at the very most. I don't think you would wish his life onto any of your children.
I want to assure you personally TwoBlock that I am not a pompous ass as you may have derived from my emotion between the lines. I am well known as a patriot, a generous man, and a religeous one. I simply don't have to be dipped in s&*t to know it stinks, and what is being done here on this site, and the child molesters, would be cheaters, and malcontents offer no solutions for our country to meet it's needs. They offer no Plan "B" which is affordable, or practicle. The very governmetn they want to apply to for a job they assume is ALL screwed up. As previously stated, there appears to be a false sense of entitlment in the younger folks today. One may apply, and may be chosen, but move on if and when you are not. Clearly the job did not go unfulfilled. It is only guys like the moderator who are unfulfilled. I hope all of them find a sense of purpose, and not Anti anything, but rather something constructive.
Thank You for your civility, except for the last sentence. I commend your wife, you, and the sacrafices the two of you have made to see her through toward her goal for PhD in Engineering, a true hard science PhD. I'm sure your family will be all the more blessed for it upon her completion.
To tell you the truth it would appear to be an unresolved issue regarding Ed Gelb's PhD. My original point still stands though that it is not a variable in the equation of his actual ability to do a polygraph test in any phase. Other than some research types, most Federal Examiners will have a Bachelors like you, and many have their Masters. Still they are belittled on a daily basis here as if they were buffoons. I think what bothers the moderator most is that his soft PhD in middle eastern languages did him little good against an FBI agent, or a seasoned Police Examiner at LAPD. Further, while he admittedly has some unique qualifications and talents to offer, he was not the only assett out there from which they had to choose. Obversely, the moderator's PhD (Assumed Real) may or may not be going to waste, but his childish sole blame of the polygraph fails to account for other variables like good old competition.
So then, that Ed Gelb's, or anyone else's PhD is real or not, or that George's PhD is relavent or not in the consideration of the polygraph are two insignificant variables to me. Ed never did a BETTER test due to the title of PhD, regardless of that title's status; as the skills he brought into the room came from some long hard years as a Police Officer at LAPD as well as in private practice. He is by any measur successful. GM on the other hand, is living the life of a tunnel visioned zealot who chose to betray his fellow brotherhood / sisterhood of intelligence officers in both the spirit and reality of the oath he took which has been covered on this site. His timing in life was such that despite all of his studies amounted to what other than the plaque on the wall and title after his name. I'll tell you !! Based on not being able to handle rejection he went off the deep end, whereas had he not acted out as he did his country would have given him a shot REGARDLESS of his polygraph with perhaps a half dozen different agencies. He knows well that such agencies act first in the NEEDS of the nation, and his language skills would have broght him into the world of HUMINT to this day. Actions speak louder than words, and his actions are / were unsat. So now he sits in Holland with this once in a lifetime opportunity having passed him by, and by his own hand to leave him ponder what could have been. He did not stop there though, he made himself the patron Saint of Child Molesters who openly identfy themselves as such on this site and he does not care that he is a defacto assistant to them to act out again, and perhaps next time with your child or mine. Further, you too should read the piece he did on Al Queda and ask yourself just who passively assisted them at the very least, and who potentially had the ability to explain all of this to them in their own languages oral and written, if so, at the very most. I don't think you would wish his life onto any of your children.
I want to assure you personally TwoBlock that I am not a pompous ass as you may have derived from my emotion between the lines. I am well known as a patriot, a generous man, and a religeous one. I simply don't have to be dipped in s&*t to know it stinks, and what is being done here on this site, and the child molesters, would be cheaters, and malcontents offer no solutions for our country to meet it's needs. They offer no Plan "B" which is affordable, or practicle. The very governmetn they want to apply to for a job they assume is ALL screwed up. As previously stated, there appears to be a false sense of entitlment in the younger folks today. One may apply, and may be chosen, but move on if and when you are not. Clearly the job did not go unfulfilled. It is only guys like the moderator who are unfulfilled. I hope all of them find a sense of purpose, and not Anti anything, but rather something constructive.
Posted by Twoblock
- Mar 11, 2008, 09:44 PMFurther to my post:
I wonder in what discipline was Ed Gelb's masters degree and PhD?
I wonder in what discipline was Ed Gelb's masters degree and PhD?