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A forum for free and open discussion of polygraph-related topics
Posted by the_wolf
- Mar 20, 2008, 07:44 PMQuote from: stiller on Jan 10, 2008, 07:03 PMPlease explain to me, Mr. Wolf, how one can "pass" or "fail" an opinion? It is well established that the results of a polygraph examination is simply the learned opinion of the polygrapher, correct? With the more experienced, better educated polygraphers likely to have a more accurate opinion, correct?An examiner reading your physiological data and scoring the data based on the degree of physiological arousal that is
Assuming the above is accurate, how can one pass or fail an opinion?
1, timely
2, significant
3, and consistent among the 3 collected charts
Should be able at accurately assess which question you are most afraid of. Lets, remember people, this is not a lie detector, it's a fear detector. We are reading sympathetic vs parasympathetic nervous system reaction. No one can "detect a lie" unless of course that person truly is GOD. And if you do meet God, tell him to call me. I know a lot of people that are trying to find his son and I am sick of them asking me where he is.
While there are some scoring systems that give the examiner a degree of subjectivity, the decision to go to the green or the red SHOULD be an objective one. This is sadly not always the case. Thus bringing me to my next opinion.
I feel, in some cases, the new examiner is more apt to be objective than subjective. The new examiner is fresh out of school, wide eyed and truly eager to do it all "by the book". They will often sit at their desk with a ruler and a score sheet and take 5-10 minutes to score chart #1. ahhhh to be a young examiner. On the flip side of that, the new examiner can miss a few things that only experience teaches. I believe that you learn about polygraph in polygraph school. It's what gets pumped into that new examiners brain after school that makes him/her a chart roller or an examiner.
That brings me to the next issue.
The more experienced examiner, can be someone who truly loves his/her job. They can't wait to get and sometimes comes home late because time got away from him/her. This is an examiner that trains interns well, quality controls the lesser experienced charts for errors, and corrects the bad habits or unprofessional behavior of the examiners under his or her supervision. Sadly this examiner is not in the majority.
Some more experienced examiners may have "hit the wall". Maybe he/she has become a bit jaded or has become someone who goes to work, does the job, and goes home like many people that some of us know. They forgot how important it was to be objective and fair. This examiner, in my opinion has many years under his or her belt and can't wait to for the day that they can leave it all behind them and spend their last days in God's waiting room, Florida.
On the flip side of this is the arrogant pinhead that feels that he/she maybe is "God's gift to the polygraph community". This is someone who runs his/her office like a chart factory, feels that they are somehow above the law, and disregards the principals of polygraph because after all, they seem to think they know it all.
Because they know it all, they try to hire or train as many people as they can in an effort to infect the community with their brand of "truth", making it more difficult for the examiner that does give a crap to make a solid difference that is positive and helpful to the world. This is next to impossible because of the chart roller larva that is infecting this industry with a smothering virus of ignorance, self indulgence, and egotism.
In closing over 51% of the time I would trust the non politically motivated "new guy" to give a fair test over most of the examiners that have been around 25+ years.
Let me know if I have missed anything in my answer.
Time to get home now. Everyone have a good night.
Posted by sackett
- Feb 01, 2008, 11:04 AMLA LE,
I can't answer your question because I do not know everything about both examinations to give an intelligent opinion. I could spend the next 2 hours typing legitimate hypothesis' to answer your question but I won't. Suffice it to say there are a lot of possible explanations why the same person can take 2 different tests and produce different results, which have nothing to do with the truth.
On your second statement, blind testing is not uncommon in criminal cases where a criminal suspect passes a private examination then is subjected by their defense attorney to a police examination. Re-testing an NDI examinee on a pre-employment issue within the same agency is extremely uncommon and in my opinion (potentially) unethical.
As for the reliability of either examination, I can't answer as for the reason I stated above.
It is unfortunate that you, a purported LEO feel no confidence in the polygraph. It is an invaluable tool in both pre-employment testing and investigations. And, until a suitable replacement is available, we have nothing better.
Have a nice day and be safe,
Sackett
I can't answer your question because I do not know everything about both examinations to give an intelligent opinion. I could spend the next 2 hours typing legitimate hypothesis' to answer your question but I won't. Suffice it to say there are a lot of possible explanations why the same person can take 2 different tests and produce different results, which have nothing to do with the truth.
On your second statement, blind testing is not uncommon in criminal cases where a criminal suspect passes a private examination then is subjected by their defense attorney to a police examination. Re-testing an NDI examinee on a pre-employment issue within the same agency is extremely uncommon and in my opinion (potentially) unethical.
As for the reliability of either examination, I can't answer as for the reason I stated above.
It is unfortunate that you, a purported LEO feel no confidence in the polygraph. It is an invaluable tool in both pre-employment testing and investigations. And, until a suitable replacement is available, we have nothing better.
Have a nice day and be safe,
Sackett
Posted by LALE
- Feb 01, 2008, 10:26 AMQuote from: stiller on Jan 31, 2008, 11:23 AMnopolycop, you wrote:
"Assuming the above is accurate, how can one pass or fail an opinion?"
passing and failing is based on upon numerical standards that must be met and can be replicated by another examiner. The "opinion" part comes in by the examiner to simply identify whether those standards were met.
Sackett
Mr Sackett, why is it that the same questions put to the same individual by two different examiners can produce two totally different scores? First test : DI / Second test : NDI
The second examiner was not told of the first test and the suspect was instructed to say nothing of the first test.
So, which score would be more reliable?
The first DI, or the second NDI.
lately I have no faith in polygraph and think that it does not have a place in LE.
LA LE
Posted by sackett
- Jan 31, 2008, 11:23 AMnopolycop, you wrote:
"Assuming the above is accurate, how can one pass or fail an opinion?"
passing and failing is based on upon numerical standards that must be met and can be replicated by another examiner. The "opinion" part comes in by the examiner to simply identify whether those standards were met.
Sackett
"Assuming the above is accurate, how can one pass or fail an opinion?"
passing and failing is based on upon numerical standards that must be met and can be replicated by another examiner. The "opinion" part comes in by the examiner to simply identify whether those standards were met.
Sackett
Posted by Sergeant1107
- Jan 10, 2008, 08:22 PMQuote from: stiller on Jan 10, 2008, 05:13 PMSpel ceck can b ur frend.
Something to keep in mind before ridiculing another poster's spelling mistakes is that there are some members of this board for whom English is a second language.
Posted by nopolycop
- Jan 10, 2008, 07:03 PMPlease explain to me, Mr. Wolf, how one can "pass" or "fail" an opinion? It is well established that the results of a polygraph examination is simply the learned opinion of the polygrapher, correct? With the more experienced, better educated polygraphers likely to have a more accurate opinion, correct?
Assuming the above is accurate, how can one pass or fail an opinion?
Assuming the above is accurate, how can one pass or fail an opinion?
Posted by the_wolf
- Jan 10, 2008, 05:13 PMQuote from: stiller on Dec 18, 2007, 03:27 AMQuote from: stiller on Dec 16, 2007, 11:34 PM
Sir,
One hundred examiners, more or less, will respondt to your post and deny that they do such behaviors. But the fact is, they are doing exactly what they were taught to do. Lie to and intimidate the examineees. Unfortunatly, polygrapf examiners regard a passing examinee as a defeat unto themselves.
So, this can explain the false credentials, doctorates, phd's etc that they need to impress the examinee and subjugate him psychologically.
The polygrapf is a wizards stick.
Respectfully,
JP
Spel ceck can b ur frend.
As private polygraph examiner I can tell you that I have heard of such a thing happening. If that has happened to you, I am truly sorry. What you do leave out was an improtant detail. Were you using CM's? You are posting here so that tells me there is a chance you may need to study up, because you got busted and now it's time for sour grapes.
I will also say that never once have I ever hoped that someone would fail a polygraph. I will admit that if I was polygraphing my ex-wife; I would pray to God that she fails, that would be the only exception. I am sure some of you guys may understand that.
It's not my job to get someone to fail the polygraph; it's my job to help them pass. If someone is going to fail they are going to do that all by themselves.
Any chart roller can run a DI or an inconclusive chart. A real Examiner does his best to run NDI charts
Posted by Barry_C
- Dec 19, 2007, 07:24 PMOkay, let me get this straight. Ask a question about EPPA, then learn it doesn't apply to the government, and then get our your broad brush and paint all polygraph examiners as unethical egomaniacs.
Clifton would love you. By the way, I'm not going to research it, but I think your typing "accent" isn't all that consistent.
Now, back to your question. No, Sancho is correct: EPPA doesn't apply to the government at any level.
Clifton would love you. By the way, I'm not going to research it, but I think your typing "accent" isn't all that consistent.
Now, back to your question. No, Sancho is correct: EPPA doesn't apply to the government at any level.
Posted by Jesper Paten
- Dec 18, 2007, 03:27 AMQuote from: stiller on Dec 16, 2007, 11:34 PMWhat would happen to a Polygrapher if he/she violated the Disclosure of Information portion of the Employee Polygraph Protection Act? Please keep in mind that:
* The polygraph was done for a Lateral Police Officer postion.
* The Polygrapher accused the Officer of deploying counter-measures.
* The Polygrapher approached two, on-duty fellow Officers, he/she
did not know, accusing the Officer of, "Barely passing the test," Also,
stating the Officer had, "Huge issues with the integrity questions."
** THE OFFICERS DID TELL THE OFFICER OF THE CONVERSATION.
** THE OFFICERS PROVIDED WRITTEN STATEMENTS.
Just a question. What rights does that Officer have at this point? This conversation has been passed through the Police Department like wildfire, and when the profession is based on integrity, a comment like this kills careers. What can happen to the Polygrapher...has anything like this happened before? This Polygrapher needs to be reported, WHAT WOULD YOU DO?
Sir,
One hundred examiners, more or less, will respondt to your post and deny that they do such behaviors. But the fact is, they are doing exactly what they were taught to do. Lie to and intimidate the examineees. Unfortunatly, polygrapf examiners regard a passing examinee as a defeat unto themselves.
So, this can explain the false credentials, doctorates, phd's etc that they need to impress the examinee and subjugate him psychologically.
The polygrapf is a wizards stick.
Respectfully,
JP
Posted by SanchoPanza
- Dec 17, 2007, 02:29 AMI just read the employee polygraph protection act and it doesn't appear to apply to government employees.
Perhaps your state law might offer some relief.
The act can be found here
http://www.fas.org/sgp/othergov/polygraph/eppa.html
Sancho Panza
Perhaps your state law might offer some relief.
The act can be found here
http://www.fas.org/sgp/othergov/polygraph/eppa.html
Sancho Panza
Posted by nopolycop
- Dec 17, 2007, 12:40 AMQuote from: stiller on Dec 16, 2007, 11:34 PM This Polygrapher needs to be reported, WHAT WOULD YOU DO?
Engage the services of a good employment attorney, (not the union attorney though) and discuss the situation with him/her.
Posted by stiller
- Dec 16, 2007, 11:34 PMWhat would happen to a Polygrapher if he/she violated the Disclosure of Information portion of the Employee Polygraph Protection Act? Please keep in mind that:
* The polygraph was done for a Lateral Police Officer postion.
* The Polygrapher accused the Officer of deploying counter-measures.
* The Polygrapher approached two, on-duty fellow Officers, he/she
did not know, accusing the Officer of, "Barely passing the test," Also,
stating the Officer had, "Huge issues with the integrity questions."
** THE OFFICERS DID TELL THE OFFICER OF THE CONVERSATION.
** THE OFFICERS PROVIDED WRITTEN STATEMENTS.
Just a question. What rights does that Officer have at this point? This conversation has been passed through the Police Department like wildfire, and when the profession is based on integrity, a comment like this kills careers. What can happen to the Polygrapher...has anything like this happened before? This Polygrapher needs to be reported, WHAT WOULD YOU DO?
* The polygraph was done for a Lateral Police Officer postion.
* The Polygrapher accused the Officer of deploying counter-measures.
* The Polygrapher approached two, on-duty fellow Officers, he/she
did not know, accusing the Officer of, "Barely passing the test," Also,
stating the Officer had, "Huge issues with the integrity questions."
** THE OFFICERS DID TELL THE OFFICER OF THE CONVERSATION.
** THE OFFICERS PROVIDED WRITTEN STATEMENTS.
Just a question. What rights does that Officer have at this point? This conversation has been passed through the Police Department like wildfire, and when the profession is based on integrity, a comment like this kills careers. What can happen to the Polygrapher...has anything like this happened before? This Polygrapher needs to be reported, WHAT WOULD YOU DO?