- Welcome to AntiPolygraph.org Message Board.
A forum for free and open discussion of polygraph-related topics
Posted by EJohnson
- Nov 19, 2007, 10:48 AMQuote from: jeffsaunders on Nov 19, 2007, 10:20 AMGood discussion Mr. Johnson. We need more straight talk and explanation like this. I have a question for you, though, (I suspect you figured that one out already).
In a sex offender maintenance polygraph, what typically happens if the person "fails" the poly? And, when I say "fail" I mean the examiner draws the conclusion that the subject is lying, not the polygraph exam actually showing or proving that the subject is lying.
I don't understand your question after your last end-paragraph caveat. When a sex offender fails a Maintenance polygraph, the general protocol is to conduct a more specific and formalized investigation. i.e. Fail alcohol----ya get your blood tested rather than urine---or maybe the Offender's home is searched thoroughly. Regardless, a failed polygraph is not good---and suspected countermeasures causes such alarm that every conceivable investigative tool, manhour, and expense is typically expended----much to the exhaustion of officials who already have full caseloads and limited time/resources. Worse yet, the Offender experiences a higher level of suspicion---and every offender values a form of trust that is the precious and none-to-common commodity of a parolee or probationer. Last summer, an Offender was labeled as a "countermeasure suspect" for manufacturing phony arousals on controls and was consequently disallowed to attend the wake of his mother's funeral as there were to be children at the funeral/wake. This of course was agonizing to the Offender, and I imagine that his porn use, or contact with kids--whatever motivated him to use countermeasures, could not have been worth the heartache---barring that he had reoffended, an unlikely event for that individual. He could have done many other things besides his obvious but unadmitted attempt at countermeasures. He could have just turned in the dirty mag, admitted internet viewings---whatever---and that particularly well-liked and participative-in-treatment Offender would have been reprimanded, but certainly not restricted from attending the funeral wake as he had a thorough "protection plan"----a written plan and agreement of how he would conduct himself if risky situations were to present themselves---namely, kids. I no longer conduct polygraph testing, but I hope he has corrected his behavior---as he had great potential.
Posted by nopolycop
- Nov 19, 2007, 10:20 AMGood discussion Mr. Johnson. We need more straight talk and explanation like this. I have a question for you, though, (I suspect you figured that one out already).
In a sex offender maintenance polygraph, what typically happens if the person "fails" the poly? And, when I say "fail" I mean the examiner draws the conclusion that the subject is lying, not the polygraph exam actually showing or proving that the subject is lying.
In a sex offender maintenance polygraph, what typically happens if the person "fails" the poly? And, when I say "fail" I mean the examiner draws the conclusion that the subject is lying, not the polygraph exam actually showing or proving that the subject is lying.
Posted by EJohnson
- Nov 19, 2007, 08:18 AMQuote from: jeffsaunders on Nov 19, 2007, 12:26 AMYeah, the test is so accurate that it (the polygrapher) can conclude that 1) I was truthful about not having sex with anyone other than my wife and 2) I was being deceptive about having sex with someone under the age of 18. Given that my wife was well over 30 at the time, the stupidity of being "consequenced" for having failed that maintenance exam is beyond words. The polygraph is a fraud, it is used to suit whatever conclusions examiners wish to draw, and anyone subject to conditions where taking a polygraph is a requirement and who chooses to remain ignorant of the fraud being perpetrated on them deserves whatever else he or she gets.
React more to control questions than to relevant questions and you will pass. It is that simple.Quote from: jeffsaunders on Nov 15, 2007, 08:09 PMPerhaps your question should be addressed in the post conviction section of this board, as it seems evident that you are a sex offender in treatment and on supervision. Once more, it appears that you are at this site in order to sidestep your treatment---as a sexual history test is a treatment exam. Your presence here signifies your desire to manipulate (yet more) people who actually want to help you.
To George;
You haven't the slightest clue as to the possible consequences of your encouragement that sexual offenders manipulate treatment providers by disengaging from treatment----and providing the empiricaly proven effective treatment notions of (ATSA) "full responsibility and engagement/disclosure". Your advice puts kids and women at risk. "Say Nothing" means danger for all---including the offenders themselves. I have little doubt that the poster will tank his tests provided that he lingers around here----but his focus will continue to be self serving, manipulative, and narcissistic----the same damn behaviors/cognitions that got him in trouble to begin with.
Interesting. For those that don't know, a "Maintenance" exam is a test given to sex ofenders who are on parole or probation (living in the community) to try and ascertain the compliance of the offender with the rules of supervision--i.e. contact with children, drinking alcohol, ....you know, doing things that most people don't want sex offenders doing. One of the reasons that sex offenders are not allowed to have contact with children is that kids are so easily manipulated---and worse yet, if a child happens to sit on the lap of the wrong guy, that guy can recieve sexual pleasure---such an act is called "Frottage" (uninvited touching.) Of course there are many Offenders who secretly have contact with children---usually familial children, unbeknownst to authorities. Many Offenders are and have been married, and if they are the manipulater type, will play on the ignorances of those that believe that men who are sexually attracted to adults will not also be attracted to children. But going back to the contact with children issue---both "non-sexual and sexual contact", many Offenders regard such contact as their secret right, and such Offenders are usually of the very narcissistic variety (superbly selfish) in that they have unrealistic trust of their behavioral fortitude, despite a long history of grand thinking errors. Although not perfect by any means, polygraph is helpful in indicating Offender's who lie about such contact, as Frottage (for example) is a sexual crime that is very subtle.
Going back to this notion of righteous indignation over treatment and supervision (including being polygraphed)---such self involvement is pervasive. It (superb selfishness) is demonstrated well in the above poster's anecdotal reply, as it seems many people who would sexually molest children are quite "into" themselves, and will readily martyr themselves as desperate attempts to divert attention to their past. Once more, we see Offenders characterizing their offenses as mere accidents----flukes-----a kind of whoops, "I accidentally had oral sex with a 7 yr old boy/girl" type of tresspass. Also, we see (saw) many Offenders lying (attempting) to lie about the age of their victim to their new group, despite the documents which proved otherwise. To be fair, there are many recovering sex offenders who do the right thing, and see their cohorts as being of the highest level of manipulaters in our society. Such higher thinking recoverers understand that in order to recover, they must start anew, and disregard old thinking errors that would toll the line of attempting to defeat a threat---namely polygraph.
The original poster of this thread seeks to understand the differences in question value/ relevance of his test -----a test which is meant to try, despite test construct errors (all tests have them), to determine some risky behaviors in order to create a more robust report than what the Offender would decide to self-report---as I stated above---an oft times folly as the vast majority of sex Offenders are not known for their veracity and candor in the earlier stages of their treatment. Such is also proven true and documented in addiction therapy literature. 1904 added nothing but criticism of the questions of the polygraph examiner, not the question of the sex offender---the one who was proven (very likely) to have raped a woman or a child. The fact that he is even on the internet is a violation in nearly every state. Perhaps 1904 and others would feel differently if the Offender was on a "how to hypnotize a child" website or a "how to create a fake ID card" website. And to cap off, the above threader tells a sad tale which is ultimately either a polygraph error which probably caused some temporary supervision sanctions---given that society is repulsed at letting sex offenders free, is hardly compelling as parole/probation is one giant ever changing sanction---or the offender went to a secret birthday party he wasn't supposed to attend, got a little sexually "moved" or was flooded with physical contact by virtue of hugs/kisses---and tanked a test. We see this type of incident countless times. Either way, when it comes to kids, caution prevails and all know polygraph has weaknesses, but sex offenders have proven empirically to have greater acute dynamic risk behaviors than polygraph has errors.
I am not in love with Jeff's stated test questions, but they all seem quite relevant to me. I hope for the sake of Jeff's community he is on the straight and narrow path to recovery. Good luck Jeff and please get the F*** off the internet!
Posted by Mr. Truth
- Nov 19, 2007, 12:26 AMYeah, the test is so accurate that it (the polygrapher) can conclude that 1) I was truthful about not having sex with anyone other than my wife and 2) I was being deceptive about having sex with someone under the age of 18. Given that my wife was well over 30 at the time, the stupidity of being "consequenced" for having failed that maintenance exam is beyond words. The polygraph is a fraud, it is used to suit whatever conclusions examiners wish to draw, and anyone subject to conditions where taking a polygraph is a requirement and who chooses to remain ignorant of the fraud being perpetrated on them deserves whatever else he or she gets.
React more to control questions than to relevant questions and you will pass. It is that simple.
React more to control questions than to relevant questions and you will pass. It is that simple.
Quote from: jeffsaunders on Nov 15, 2007, 08:09 PMPerhaps your question should be addressed in the post conviction section of this board, as it seems evident that you are a sex offender in treatment and on supervision. Once more, it appears that you are at this site in order to sidestep your treatment---as a sexual history test is a treatment exam. Your presence here signifies your desire to manipulate (yet more) people who actually want to help you.
To George;
You haven't the slightest clue as to the possible consequences of your encouragement that sexual offenders manipulate treatment providers by disengaging from treatment----and providing the empiricaly proven effective treatment notions of (ATSA) "full responsibility and engagement/disclosure". Your advice puts kids and women at risk. "Say Nothing" means danger for all---including the offenders themselves. I have little doubt that the poster will tank his tests provided that he lingers around here----but his focus will continue to be self serving, manipulative, and narcissistic----the same damn behaviors/cognitions that got him in trouble to begin with.
Posted by 1904
- Nov 16, 2007, 07:28 AMQuote from: jeffsaunders on Nov 15, 2007, 07:51 PM
Do you plan to harm yourself in the future?
Do you plan to commit a sex offense?
Do you plan to engage in deviant sex in the future?
Do you plan on being honest with your parole officer?
Have you had contact with potential victims?
One could speculate about why you are to be tested, but to be fair,
the 5 questions above are potentially the most stupid I have ever seen.
One cannot 'test' a subject's intentions for the future.
Intentions can change an infinite number of times in a short space of time.
Posted by EJohnson
- Nov 15, 2007, 08:09 PMPerhaps your question should be addressed in the post conviction section of this board, as it seems evident that you are a sex offender in treatment and on supervision. Once more, it appears that you are at this site in order to sidestep your treatment---as a sexual history test is a treatment exam. Your presence here signifies your desire to manipulate (yet more) people who actually want to help you.
To George;
You haven't the slightest clue as to the possible consequences of your encouragement that sexual offenders manipulate treatment providers by disengaging from treatment----and providing the empiricaly proven effective treatment notions of (ATSA) "full responsibility and engagement/disclosure". Your advice puts kids and women at risk. "Say Nothing" means danger for all---including the offenders themselves. I have little doubt that the poster will tank his tests provided that he lingers around here----but his focus will continue to be self serving, manipulative, and narcissistic----the same damn behaviors/cognitions that got him in trouble to begin with.
To George;
You haven't the slightest clue as to the possible consequences of your encouragement that sexual offenders manipulate treatment providers by disengaging from treatment----and providing the empiricaly proven effective treatment notions of (ATSA) "full responsibility and engagement/disclosure". Your advice puts kids and women at risk. "Say Nothing" means danger for all---including the offenders themselves. I have little doubt that the poster will tank his tests provided that he lingers around here----but his focus will continue to be self serving, manipulative, and narcissistic----the same damn behaviors/cognitions that got him in trouble to begin with.
Posted by jeffsaunders
- Nov 15, 2007, 07:51 PMHere are the questions:
Do you live in New Mexico?
Do you have any violations you have not told your parole officer about?
Do you plan to harm yourself in the future?
Were you completely honest about your sex history?
Do you plan to commit a sex offense?
Is there anything about your sex history you don't want authorities to know about?
Do you plan to engage in deviant sex in the future?
Do you lie to your wife?
Do you plan on being honest with your parole officer?
Have you had contact with potentional victims?
Any thoughts? I can only see two relevent question in there. The onea bout was there anything in yoru sex history and were you completely honest in your sex history....
Am I wrong?
It seems "do you have any violations" is too broad as well as have you had contact with potential victims. Too broad for relavent I think.
Thoughts?
Besides every time I hear of an exam from these people they seem to only have 2 questions they're using for R's.
Do you live in New Mexico?
Do you have any violations you have not told your parole officer about?
Do you plan to harm yourself in the future?
Were you completely honest about your sex history?
Do you plan to commit a sex offense?
Is there anything about your sex history you don't want authorities to know about?
Do you plan to engage in deviant sex in the future?
Do you lie to your wife?
Do you plan on being honest with your parole officer?
Have you had contact with potentional victims?
Any thoughts? I can only see two relevent question in there. The onea bout was there anything in yoru sex history and were you completely honest in your sex history....
Am I wrong?
It seems "do you have any violations" is too broad as well as have you had contact with potential victims. Too broad for relavent I think.
Thoughts?
Besides every time I hear of an exam from these people they seem to only have 2 questions they're using for R's.
Posted by 1904
- Nov 15, 2007, 04:27 AMQuote from: jeffsaunders on Nov 14, 2007, 04:02 PMI'm being poly'd for an investigation into an allegation. I'm not here to debate my innocence or guilt.
The poly is about my sex history. It seems they have TWO relevant q's, one irrelivent, and tons of control q's. Does that make sense?
Do they often times only do two rel. q's instead of say 4 or 5?
It depends on the protocol being used.
There can be as few as 2 Relevants, but not likely in your case.
More likely to be 4 -5 RQ's and 2 Control with Irrelevants and Symptomatics - shouldnt be more than 11-13 questions per test set.
The examiner will probably run the test 3 times.
Ask the examiner for printouts of each test chart.
That way you can always get a 2nd opinion if you're not happy with
the result.
Posted by jeffsaunders
- Nov 14, 2007, 04:02 PMI'm being poly'd for an investigation into an allegation. I'm not here to debate my innocence or guilt.
The poly is about my sex history. It seems they have TWO relevant q's, one irrelivent, and tons of control q's. Does that make sense?
Do they often times only do two rel. q's instead of say 4 or 5?
The poly is about my sex history. It seems they have TWO relevant q's, one irrelivent, and tons of control q's. Does that make sense?
Do they often times only do two rel. q's instead of say 4 or 5?