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Posted by dakath
- Oct 05, 2007, 12:39 PMeven i can admit that was a bit of exaggeration for dramatical affect nothing more. i was just trying to emphasize the point of a lot of good people shoot themselves in the foot by flapping their jaws too much about things that really even didnt need to be said
Posted by Ludovico
- Oct 03, 2007, 08:51 AMQuoteUltimately it is up to the individual to get the job and the system is really geared in a way that 90+% of people that would be excellent officers don't even get considered due to a confession they made that they really didn't have to.
Seriously now. If 90+% of decent people were rejected we'd have practically nothing but corruption in public service.
That's way too cynical, even by1904's standards. If you are truly that cynical, you'll not last in LE.
It's another example of mysticism and crazy-making at this site.
enjoy,
Posted by dakath
- Oct 03, 2007, 04:03 AMDon't get me wrong I don't make any pretenses to be some kind of guru on government job processes. I just feel quite strongly about the subject, having gone through even more rigorous background checking and application processes getting into the military. I have personally seen many good people turned away from jobs (police, fire, Armed Forces) they deserve and are qualified for. All these people did, was doing nothing more than be too open with the admissions people, about minor stuff from their past that really had no bearing on who they were or where they were in their lives at the time of actually applying. I just think it is really easy to get nervous and say too much during the verbal especially, when if you would've been smart and played it cool, and kept your mouth shut, everything would have been just fine. And probably would have got the job. Use your best judgment and listen to your conscience when it comes to applying honestly, it is of the utmost importance like ludovico said. Just don't be stupid and tell them about the times when you used to get stoned with your buddies and made an ass of yourself. Unless your still doing it...in that case you may want to just either not apply or hope to god your unflinching honestly impresses the shit out of them. But remember these are cops after all and if you volunteer info about the stupid crap you did, and bad judgment calls you made in the past they will NOT take you seriously and rightfully so. All you need to to do is be confident in your abilities and show them what positive things you can bring to the department. My ultimate point I think is if your somewhat sketchy past is behind you, do yourself and the department a favor and just keep it to yourself.
Posted by Ludovico
- Oct 02, 2007, 07:51 PMQuoteUltimately it is up to the individual to get the job and the system is really geared in a way that 90+% of people that would be excellent officers don't even get considered due to a confession they made that they really didn't have to.
In some ways you sound reasonable and thoughtful, but then you go and parrot some misguided mythological mysticism like this.
Be well.
Posted by dakath
- Oct 02, 2007, 06:11 PMThanks for the advice i do agree with what you said in that last statement. And yes public officials should be the cream of the crop so to speak. And as for everything I said previously My whole point really was to let this guy know because he F'd up at one point like i did that it doesn't mean he should feel as though he doesn't have a chance in hell at getting the job. Ultimately it is up to the individual to get the job and the system is really geared in a way that 90+% of people that would be excellent officers don't even get considered due to a confession they made that they really didn't have to. Dont get me wrong do NOT lie or omit things that they really NEED to know (I.E things that recently or currently would prevent you from doing that job the right way.) But other than that ludovico made many good points as well and even made me think about how i am going to approach the application process. So with that said i wish you all the best and good luck as well. 8-)
Posted by Ludovico
- Oct 01, 2007, 11:48 AMQuoteCan you at least agree with the fact that many people have deep dark secrets that they tell nobody.
Sure. Lots of people prolly have things they'll simply go to there grave with.
The community still has a right to expect the best from persons in positions of public trust.
I know there are a lot of fine people doing some very important and very dangerous work, all over the world right now. I wish we could do more for them. If you have done your part, then we all owe you a huge debt of gratitude.
You must know that cops are decent sensible people. You'll have to make your own choices about disclosure.
I would suggest that you try to stay out of all the crazy-making surrounding the polygraph. Its just a test, an important test, but still just a test. Don't go throwing away a career opportunity for this cause. With that said, you should probably talk to your family members more and read this site less.
Good luck to you.
Posted by dakath
- Oct 01, 2007, 11:30 AMBelieve me i fully understand where you are coming from and understand the implications of what i am trying to do. If i fail I fail but the point is i am not going to let one mistake hold me back from something i see as my calling ever since i left the military i miss that type of environment. I was just smoking really to avoid dealing with some issues relating to my wartime service in Afghanistan...to me the mental anguish at the time was too much to bear and i took the weaklings way out, but is that really any worse than someone who takes a shot of whiskey when they feel like shit, to me its not. I understand that omitting stuff from the department is wrong, but really I don't want to talk about that subject anymore period. i am over it, and i don't need someone to tell me how i am unfit for service because i smoked a little weed after watching one of my best friends die 10 feet in front of me. If that ever happened to you wouldn't you want a second chance at a better life and maybe some vindication. I mean lets be serious here...My own father is a cop, his advice to me was to be honest but don't tell them too much. And this is coming from a guy who has never had a drink, drug, or committed a single criminal offense. HE even had to cheat a little bit to get in, he was denied by 3 different dept's. and when a senior officer saw his plight helped him out by cluing him in on what the correct verbal question answers were. (this is where he kept F'ing up) Can you at least agree with the fact that many people have deep dark secrets that they tell nobody. Well for me this is one of those. I didn't want to go to war i saw things i didn't want to see and then in a childish act i just used it as fuel to do what i wanted to make the pain go away. you usually don't show people how strong of an officer you're going to be by letting them in on your greatest secret downfall. All in all i do understand what your saying in that last post man, but just like the old saying first impressions are everything and i am definitely not going to show them how strong i am now, by telling them how weak i was at one time. My hope is that one day i could be honest about all of this, but the current political landscape and over enforced drug policies are unfortunately going to prevent me from doing so because if i don't, some other undeserving dick beater who just keeps his mouth shut, and goes with the process, will get the job anyway.
Quote:
Plenty of cops lie <snip>
Spoken like so many criminals.
Hey, you don't s'pose they may have simply told the truth about things?
Now with all this discussion about pot, and lying in a police application process - I suppose you'll pay very careful attention to any polygraph questions about mara-houchi. Or you could try to ignore those questions - but that would take effort too. Hmm. That's a dilemma. All that there effort might become observable. Or you could try the route of just try not to believe it works - but then, why would you bother posting here if you really believed that. You'd simply have no worries.
1.I am NOT a criminal...hence i want to be a cop so i can put them behind bars smart guy. (you know REAL criminals)
2. I personally know a few officers that got the job despite doing some shady things in their past and may have omitted or fluffed up things a bit. They are good cops to this day...probably because of that shady past. It gives them a reason not to go back to it once you see how things are from sober and mature eyes. Thats honestly how i feel about it.
Quote:
Plenty of cops lie <snip>
Spoken like so many criminals.
Hey, you don't s'pose they may have simply told the truth about things?
Now with all this discussion about pot, and lying in a police application process - I suppose you'll pay very careful attention to any polygraph questions about mara-houchi. Or you could try to ignore those questions - but that would take effort too. Hmm. That's a dilemma. All that there effort might become observable. Or you could try the route of just try not to believe it works - but then, why would you bother posting here if you really believed that. You'd simply have no worries.
1.I am NOT a criminal...hence i want to be a cop so i can put them behind bars smart guy. (you know REAL criminals)
2. I personally know a few officers that got the job despite doing some shady things in their past and may have omitted or fluffed up things a bit. They are good cops to this day...probably because of that shady past. It gives them a reason not to go back to it once you see how things are from sober and mature eyes. Thats honestly how i feel about it.
Posted by Ludovico
- Sep 29, 2007, 03:08 PMAll the cops kids that I grew up with were pretty wild. Almost as wild as the minister's kids.
You better read and practice if your ever gonna getta job.
Perhaps some basic PT: squeeze, bite, count, 1, squeeze, bite, count, 2 squeeze, bite count, 3...
No. You chose to do something that you knew was unlawful, and contrary to your family's value system (perhaps even your own).
Hey, isn't that what we call a lie by omission. Let us know how that works out, will ya.
Spoken like so many criminals.
Hey, you don't s'pose they may have simply told the truth about things?
Now with all this discussion about pot, and lying in a police application process - I suppose you'll pay very careful attention to any polygraph questions about mara-houchi. Or you could try to ignore those questions - but that would take effort too. Hmm. That's a dilemma. All that there effort might become observable. Or you could try the route of just try not to believe it works - but then, why would you bother posting here if you really believed that. You'd simply have no worries.
G'luck to ya.
You better read and practice if your ever gonna getta job.
Perhaps some basic PT: squeeze, bite, count, 1, squeeze, bite, count, 2 squeeze, bite count, 3...
Quotei made a small mistake with some pot...
No. You chose to do something that you knew was unlawful, and contrary to your family's value system (perhaps even your own).
Quotei just choose not to say anything about the pot <snip>
Hey, isn't that what we call a lie by omission. Let us know how that works out, will ya.
QuotePlenty of cops lie <snip>
Spoken like so many criminals.
Hey, you don't s'pose they may have simply told the truth about things?
Now with all this discussion about pot, and lying in a police application process - I suppose you'll pay very careful attention to any polygraph questions about mara-houchi. Or you could try to ignore those questions - but that would take effort too. Hmm. That's a dilemma. All that there effort might become observable. Or you could try the route of just try not to believe it works - but then, why would you bother posting here if you really believed that. You'd simply have no worries.
G'luck to ya.
Posted by dakath
- Sep 29, 2007, 02:39 PMi understand the implications of the job and what it means to be a cop being as my own father was one. he explained everything to me. I do respect authority he was a good authority figure. I just see things a differnt way. i made a small mistake with some pot... does that mean i will make a bad cop...no of course not a lot of people have done it and became a cop well before the 5 year mark. and they work out fine to this day. about the dinosaurs thing really you have to understand that i don't have disrespect for authority i just can see through Some[/i] of the bullshit in the process. i understand the importance of being honest with what you say and write down. and believe me i do. i just choose not to say anything about the pot and just the pot. because other than that i am fit for the job. i had no urge to return to the substance and being a police officer was my motivation behind stopping. so if that is really the only thing i choose not to talk about really what is the problem there knowing full well how the interviewers will look at it and think that i made a bad judgment call and that i am not fit because of it. well what if i already received help for that problem and have put it behind me... do they really need to know. to me the answer really is no. however that is conditional the pot is the only thing i personally would omit. everything else is open book for them. i was simply implying to this guy that if he has put this problem behind him and he feels ready then he should try to apply and if he feels strongly about omitting whatever it was that he did or about the previous app then he should do so and not let hypocritical people on this website scare him into thinking that full admission of his life story is a requirement to become a cop. Plenty of cops lie and omit they are people too and probably did omit some small stupid thing they did from the board or poly tester to gain employment there. My ultimate point is don't sweat over the small stuff... if your previous mistake does not affect you now or hasn't in some time then it wont affect you in your new position either. the academy like boot camp is a time for you to reflect on your new found inner strength and learn about what it takes to be an officer. believe me if your previous mistakes will prevent you from being an officer, the academy is where you will find out and make a decision on whether or not it is right for you.
Posted by Ludovico
- Sep 29, 2007, 02:08 PMQuotewhy would you volunteer information If they cant prove it, don't say s**t.
Because, smartie, you know the truth - unless of course you really are mentally handicapped. But if you're not impaired, then you know what you did, and when your examiner asks, you get to make the choice to tell the truth, or lie - unless of course there is absolutely zero construct validity anything about the polygraph. Waddaya think the odds are there is absolutely zero validity???
Even if imperfect, the polygraph might just reveal your deception. Its a gamble.
You a gamblin' man, Chief? Its your career. You decide. Do you lie? Do you tell the truth? Oh, the choices...
Or, unless you can find a way to disconnect your brain from reality, but that would make you psychotic and unfit - buy hey, you could just fake you MMPI also.
QuoteThe bottom line is this you and only you have the power to get that job.
Ready. OK. Gimme a "J". Gimme an "O" Gimme a "B" You can do it!
QuoteJust don't compulsively give up info on anything you don't think they need to know.
Sure chief. You decide what matters to them.
QuoteSo no matter what you've done in life walk into an LE agency with pride because a lot of these self-richeous dinosaurs that are running things now will be retiring soon.
Such respect for authority. You'll have to bone up on your MMPI questions so that doesn't shine through like the beacon that it is.
Have fun at your poly.
Ciao.
Posted by dakath
- Sep 28, 2007, 06:59 AMAbsolutely. Not only is it 2 different states way far apart but also remember you do have 5th amendment rights. If you are ashamed of something you did and have moved past it and you want it to be between you and god that is your business and only yours. Look I got a really good bit of advice from my military recruiter when i joined. I wanted to be honest about all of my little hell raising when i was young on the background, I was 17 at the time and quite naive. He sat me down and asked me do you want to be a soldier yes or no. I said yes of course and he replied with the only people that get in the military are the people that people that tell the whole truth usually are declined for all the wrong reasons. He also said why would you volunteer information If they cant prove it, don't say s**t. Seriously do you really think that cops are honest all the time? As long as you are not omitting anything that they can find (i.e criminal past, driving, credit, employment, current drug use, or your address history) yous should be fine. and as for making you feel better about reapplying in Chicago i read in some other forums that most interviewers understand when you omit an unfavorable previous application and rarely check around to find out. Since NYPD is a huge organization it is possible that they can find out but i think unlikely. A lot of these departments do not have the time to check every agency in the country just for previous apps. My own father got 3 apps rejected before her got in. Just keep your nose to the grindstone move past your mistakes and do what you have to do to support yourself your family and community. Don't let any of these self-reichous hypocrites tell you who you can or cannot be. If you think you would make a good officer then try it out it the only way you or the LE agency will ever know. The worst case scenario is it really doesn't work out and you can move on to bigger and better areas of employment.(I.E The Fire Department) But if you do make it, and are a good cop, and make a good career out of it. Then who is the a**hole really...you for lying, or the agency for making you submit to unreliable polygraphs and trying to make you feel guilty for not divulging your whole life story no matter how private or humiliating or cracking and making false statements under pressure. Bottom line is these guys do not really care about you until you are part of the force...they have a job to do in the app process and that is to get rid of applicants who are clearly not able to be an officer for real reasons like current drug use, real crimes, and people who would abuse the position. not people that f**ked up a little bit in the past. The bottom line is this you and only you have the power to get that job. You just need to play it cool and answer honestly to the questions they ask...Just don't compulsively give up info on anything you don't think they need to know. And this is real talk from someone who made it through the Clinton era military screening process.
P.S: Just a bit of advice for all of you out there there is a lot of conflicting advice on this website whether or not to be completely open and honest. Remember this being honest is a requirement on the app. But being open with all of your life experiences...nope that's exactly why we have the 1st and 5th amendment in our constitution. So no matter what you've done in life walk into an LE agency with pride because a lot of these self-richeous dinosaurs that are running things now will be retiring soon. And a whole new generation of law enforcement will accept people who have made mistakes more openly. How are you going to ask a person enforce the law if they have never had any experience on the other side of the tracks. An ideal cop is someone who understands the mind of criminal through personal experience. And is also the kind of person who will bring real criminals to justice (I.E Murderers, molesters, and thieves, Etc.) Not just pot-heads, junkies, and minorities. These are the reasons why prisons are overcrowded and billions of tax dollars get sunk into that system annually.
P.S: Just a bit of advice for all of you out there there is a lot of conflicting advice on this website whether or not to be completely open and honest. Remember this being honest is a requirement on the app. But being open with all of your life experiences...nope that's exactly why we have the 1st and 5th amendment in our constitution. So no matter what you've done in life walk into an LE agency with pride because a lot of these self-richeous dinosaurs that are running things now will be retiring soon. And a whole new generation of law enforcement will accept people who have made mistakes more openly. How are you going to ask a person enforce the law if they have never had any experience on the other side of the tracks. An ideal cop is someone who understands the mind of criminal through personal experience. And is also the kind of person who will bring real criminals to justice (I.E Murderers, molesters, and thieves, Etc.) Not just pot-heads, junkies, and minorities. These are the reasons why prisons are overcrowded and billions of tax dollars get sunk into that system annually.
Posted by ashamedrecruit
- Jun 12, 2007, 09:43 PMIf I made an admission on a pre-polygraph exam, can this be shared with other local departments or around the country? Aren't there any laws that govern sharing this information?
I may have made an admission that I feel that it was a big mistake. Too late now. :-/ I have no criminal record. The admission was not made face to face but through email. Nothing was signed. Say I apply to Chicago, should I not mention that I applied to NY because of the admission?
I haven't taken the actual polygraph or submitted any fingerprints. Should I decline the polygraph if asked to take it?
I've looked for similar topics on this board but could not find any. Thanks guys!
I may have made an admission that I feel that it was a big mistake. Too late now. :-/ I have no criminal record. The admission was not made face to face but through email. Nothing was signed. Say I apply to Chicago, should I not mention that I applied to NY because of the admission?
I haven't taken the actual polygraph or submitted any fingerprints. Should I decline the polygraph if asked to take it?
I've looked for similar topics on this board but could not find any. Thanks guys!