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A forum for free and open discussion of polygraph-related topics
Posted by Benjamin David
- Feb 23, 2009, 12:59 AMEd Gelb has been the "poster boy" for the APA, irregardless of him having a doctorate or not. With his private investigation and polygraph firm, he is perhaps the most famous polygraph examiner in the entire world. So the APA is very unlikely to censor Ed Gelb in any way. If anything he is what makes the the APA "legitimate" . Back when employment polygraphs were legitimate, I was examined by him at least once a year, and Larry West, on the alternate 6 months. So with or without the "Ph.D." at the end of his name, nobody is going to touch him. If the APA has any integrity it is entirely Ed Gelb that gives it to him. So I do not think there is a chance at all to get Ed Gelb sensored in any way. You can keep trying, but I think it is easier to go after the "small fries" first, before you go after the "Emperor of all Polygraph Examiners" <BR><BR>Just a few thoughts, <BR><BR>Benjamin
Posted by George W. Maschke
- Oct 23, 2006, 06:13 PMQuote from: Meangino on Oct 23, 2006, 11:05 AM
Mr. Maschke, after more than four months do you expect CAPE to actually respond?
No. But CAPE's silence speaks volumes.
Posted by meangino
- Oct 23, 2006, 11:05 AMQuoteI don't know. It has been almost two months now...
Mr. Maschke, after more than four months do you expect CAPE to actually respond?
Posted by George W. Maschke
- Aug 08, 2006, 07:40 AMQuote from: Meangino on Aug 05, 2006, 07:52 PMMr. Maschke, when do you expect CAPE to respond?
I don't know. It has been almost two months now...
Posted by meangino
- Aug 05, 2006, 07:52 PMMr. Maschke, when do you expect CAPE to respond?
Posted by Principessa
- Jul 09, 2006, 12:26 AMSkeeters is a fraudster as well.
He conducted an interview of a suspect in the Holloway case, led the kid on that he would get him into college in California, promised him the moon, etc. and then turned the tape over to the Dr. Phil show who ALTERED it to make it sound like the man incriminated himself.
Both the NIH and FBI reviewed the tape and determined it was manipulated. Although Skeeters probably did not alter the tape, he was part of this fraud and his interview with all the sleaziness is well documented.
What is it with California Polygraph Presidents.....
He conducted an interview of a suspect in the Holloway case, led the kid on that he would get him into college in California, promised him the moon, etc. and then turned the tape over to the Dr. Phil show who ALTERED it to make it sound like the man incriminated himself.
Both the NIH and FBI reviewed the tape and determined it was manipulated. Although Skeeters probably did not alter the tape, he was part of this fraud and his interview with all the sleaziness is well documented.
What is it with California Polygraph Presidents.....
Posted by Fred F.
- Jul 08, 2006, 09:45 PMGeorge,
Your exposure of the Edward Gelb contract to the City of Long Beach is alarming. Long Beach has a great PD and provides great service to the City. Intercept may prevent this fine City from getting quality officers added to the force because of "issues" raised by the polygraph.
Since you sent that letter, City elections have taken place. Long Beach has a new mayor, Bob Foster, who was formerly the CEO of Southern California Edison. You may want to resend this letter to the incoming City Council to reiterate this critical information. I feel confident that Mayor Foster and the new members of the City Council will find this information worth acting on.
I also suggest you send a copy of to Anthony W. Batts, the Chief of Police for Long Beach. Chief Batts is a highly educated person who would be appalled to see someone like Gelb who claims to have a doctorial degree that simply cannot be verified getting a contract to provide services for his agency
As always keep up the fantastic effort George.
Fred F.
Your exposure of the Edward Gelb contract to the City of Long Beach is alarming. Long Beach has a great PD and provides great service to the City. Intercept may prevent this fine City from getting quality officers added to the force because of "issues" raised by the polygraph.
Since you sent that letter, City elections have taken place. Long Beach has a new mayor, Bob Foster, who was formerly the CEO of Southern California Edison. You may want to resend this letter to the incoming City Council to reiterate this critical information. I feel confident that Mayor Foster and the new members of the City Council will find this information worth acting on.
I also suggest you send a copy of to Anthony W. Batts, the Chief of Police for Long Beach. Chief Batts is a highly educated person who would be appalled to see someone like Gelb who claims to have a doctorial degree that simply cannot be verified getting a contract to provide services for his agency
As always keep up the fantastic effort George.
Fred F.
Posted by EosJupiter
- Jun 19, 2006, 04:10 AMDr Furedy,
It is indeed an honor to have such a noted scientist as yourself on this board. There isn't a polygrapher even worthy of disputing you. Your comments and observations on the APA I am sure are going cause some heartburn for them. I do believe like you that somewhere there has to be an accounting for the deception and denial they broadcast. Your observations are by far some of the best I have seen. As a scientist and engineer myself, I applaud your insights. Your website is also well done.
Regards .....
It is indeed an honor to have such a noted scientist as yourself on this board. There isn't a polygrapher even worthy of disputing you. Your comments and observations on the APA I am sure are going cause some heartburn for them. I do believe like you that somewhere there has to be an accounting for the deception and denial they broadcast. Your observations are by far some of the best I have seen. As a scientist and engineer myself, I applaud your insights. Your website is also well done.
Regards .....
Posted by furedy
- Jun 19, 2006, 03:30 AMgelbpost
FOCUS ON PROFESSIONAL RESPONSIBILITIES OF THE APA RATHER THAN THE ETHICS OF "DR" GELB
In its official reply to George, the APA was acting as if it were primarily or even exclusively a research oriented society like the Society for Psychophysiological Research (SPR). If it were like SPR, then the position that it will act only for advertisements and articles in APA's journal, the Polygraph, would be defensible. And to a neutral reader like my wife, the APA's letter seems justifiable at least content, if not in tone.
So, at first glance (and assuming, as I of course do not, that there is any scientific basis to the polygraph, and that it, therefore, is possible to do research on it), this seems a reasonable defence. As a parallel, if someone were to complain to SPR that a former president of SPR, in his separate practice as a clinical psychologist, misrepresented himself as having obtained a D.Sc. (higher than a Phd) when he had not, SPR would probably only act to make sure that in its journal this individual did not advertise himself as a D.Sc., nor claim this title in any of his publications in the journal.
However, the APA is predominantly a professional organization of practitioners that offer scientifically-based services of a psychological sort to the community. It purports to tell the community whether someone is telling the truth or lying, or is innocent or guilty. It is much more like the real APA (the American Psychological Association—here I'll use rAPA to distinguish it from the polygraphic APA) than SPR. In fact it is further from SPR than APA, which does contain a significant scientific, non-practitioner component, and still retains the highest research-impact psychology journals, whereas the APA's journal, Polygraph, doesn't even make it into the low-impact, peer-reviewed scientific journals category).
Now if the rAPA were notified that one of its former presidents who was also a practitioner, did not hold a PhD from a recognized institution (and, in particular, there was no record of the abstract of his PhD thesis being published in dissertation abstracts), the rAPA would be obligated to investigate if this charge was true. If it was, the rAPA would bound in terms of its professional obligations of protecting the public, to act against this former president, and to expel him formally from rAPA. A similar case occurred some years ago with the (in)famous psychologist, Joyce Davidson, who was expelled from the rAPA for what is essentially professional misconduct. By the way, I recall Joyce, because on the "Lie Detector", the show which starred Gelb as the polygrapher, she averred that the only danger with the polygraph was one that was given by someone who was not a member of the APA. The video where she said this can be viewed on http://www.psych.utoronto.ca/~furedy/polygraph.htm, see 1st section, item 29 (also somewhere on antipolygraph archives).
A more minor, but still significant, point is Gelb's apparent claim that he holds a PhD in psychology, which is certainly the most relevant academic discipline to the purportedly science-based practice of polygraphy as endorsed by the APA. To the extent that he has claimed psychology as a discipline in which he did his PhD (or other degrees), and this claim is false, the APA should have the same problem with him as the rAPA would have if an ex president claimed he had a degree in psychology, whereas he really only had the degree in some other discipline like theology. This false claim should be of interest to any professional organization, because it is a danger to the public to pretend that one has a degree in a profession-related discipline, whereas the degree is really in a discipline that is not related to the profession.
So while George's pursuit of an individual charlatan may be more suitable for legal suits, I think that anti-polygraph should give at least equal attention to the unprofessional conduct of the APA. This attention is independent of the other basic issue to which academics like me have given most attention: the lack of any scientific rationale for the practice of polygraphy as conducted by APA members. To return to my entrails-reading parallel, this is as if an individual entrails-reading priest allegedly lied about his background in disciplines that are purported to underlie entrails reading, and the temple of priests, when confronted with these allegations, were as casual about them as the APA is, rather than how bodies like the rAPA or the AMA would handle such matters.
Also, perhaps a follow-up letter to the APA may be in order, so it can more clearly be seen whether it continues to be so casual about its professional obligations.
All the best, John
FOCUS ON PROFESSIONAL RESPONSIBILITIES OF THE APA RATHER THAN THE ETHICS OF "DR" GELB
In its official reply to George, the APA was acting as if it were primarily or even exclusively a research oriented society like the Society for Psychophysiological Research (SPR). If it were like SPR, then the position that it will act only for advertisements and articles in APA's journal, the Polygraph, would be defensible. And to a neutral reader like my wife, the APA's letter seems justifiable at least content, if not in tone.
So, at first glance (and assuming, as I of course do not, that there is any scientific basis to the polygraph, and that it, therefore, is possible to do research on it), this seems a reasonable defence. As a parallel, if someone were to complain to SPR that a former president of SPR, in his separate practice as a clinical psychologist, misrepresented himself as having obtained a D.Sc. (higher than a Phd) when he had not, SPR would probably only act to make sure that in its journal this individual did not advertise himself as a D.Sc., nor claim this title in any of his publications in the journal.
However, the APA is predominantly a professional organization of practitioners that offer scientifically-based services of a psychological sort to the community. It purports to tell the community whether someone is telling the truth or lying, or is innocent or guilty. It is much more like the real APA (the American Psychological Association—here I'll use rAPA to distinguish it from the polygraphic APA) than SPR. In fact it is further from SPR than APA, which does contain a significant scientific, non-practitioner component, and still retains the highest research-impact psychology journals, whereas the APA's journal, Polygraph, doesn't even make it into the low-impact, peer-reviewed scientific journals category).
Now if the rAPA were notified that one of its former presidents who was also a practitioner, did not hold a PhD from a recognized institution (and, in particular, there was no record of the abstract of his PhD thesis being published in dissertation abstracts), the rAPA would be obligated to investigate if this charge was true. If it was, the rAPA would bound in terms of its professional obligations of protecting the public, to act against this former president, and to expel him formally from rAPA. A similar case occurred some years ago with the (in)famous psychologist, Joyce Davidson, who was expelled from the rAPA for what is essentially professional misconduct. By the way, I recall Joyce, because on the "Lie Detector", the show which starred Gelb as the polygrapher, she averred that the only danger with the polygraph was one that was given by someone who was not a member of the APA. The video where she said this can be viewed on http://www.psych.utoronto.ca/~furedy/polygraph.htm, see 1st section, item 29 (also somewhere on antipolygraph archives).
A more minor, but still significant, point is Gelb's apparent claim that he holds a PhD in psychology, which is certainly the most relevant academic discipline to the purportedly science-based practice of polygraphy as endorsed by the APA. To the extent that he has claimed psychology as a discipline in which he did his PhD (or other degrees), and this claim is false, the APA should have the same problem with him as the rAPA would have if an ex president claimed he had a degree in psychology, whereas he really only had the degree in some other discipline like theology. This false claim should be of interest to any professional organization, because it is a danger to the public to pretend that one has a degree in a profession-related discipline, whereas the degree is really in a discipline that is not related to the profession.
So while George's pursuit of an individual charlatan may be more suitable for legal suits, I think that anti-polygraph should give at least equal attention to the unprofessional conduct of the APA. This attention is independent of the other basic issue to which academics like me have given most attention: the lack of any scientific rationale for the practice of polygraphy as conducted by APA members. To return to my entrails-reading parallel, this is as if an individual entrails-reading priest allegedly lied about his background in disciplines that are purported to underlie entrails reading, and the temple of priests, when confronted with these allegations, were as casual about them as the APA is, rather than how bodies like the rAPA or the AMA would handle such matters.
Also, perhaps a follow-up letter to the APA may be in order, so it can more clearly be seen whether it continues to be so casual about its professional obligations.
All the best, John
Posted by underlyingtruth
- Jun 15, 2006, 07:49 PMGeorge,
Thanks for taking the time to file the complaints and make efforts to advance a change in attitude and policy. Taking a stand for what is right is important, regardless of the results.
Thanks for taking the time to file the complaints and make efforts to advance a change in attitude and policy. Taking a stand for what is right is important, regardless of the results.
Posted by digithead
- Jun 15, 2006, 07:34 PMGeorge,
I agree that your complaint and their subsequent response gives you something else to point to when discussing the polygraph with the press and consumers.
But your point of the APA needing to set ethical standards doesn't hold because polygraphy, as a pseudocscience, is unethical to begin with because it doesn't work. Why would the APA excommunicate a member from its ranks because he is a fraud when its membership is based on fraud?
Kevin Trudeau makes millions selling a book on natural cures that don't work. People know that he's a convicted thief but it hasn't made one iota of difference to his bottom line. I don't think Gelb is any different, especially since the polygraph is so ingrained into the police psyche.
I'm not trying to belabor the point here, I'm with you in believing that the polygraph should be tossed on the trash heap with all the junk that used to be used in criminal justice such as phrenology, lead bullet content analysis (a victory for the NAS, I might add), and repressed memory syndrome. But we, meaning academics and scientists, need to be more vocal in our oppositions to overcome the lure of wishful thinking that the polygraph provides.
Your site provides a basis for people to find out the truth behind the polygraph and it is a great bullhorn for the cause of those who have been harmed by these junk-peddlers. But everytime I see a show like Gelb's or on psychic detectives, I realize that getting rid of pseudoscience is harder that it looks. Pardon the pun but I wish that reality sold as well as wishful thinking.
Regards,
-digithead
I agree that your complaint and their subsequent response gives you something else to point to when discussing the polygraph with the press and consumers.
But your point of the APA needing to set ethical standards doesn't hold because polygraphy, as a pseudocscience, is unethical to begin with because it doesn't work. Why would the APA excommunicate a member from its ranks because he is a fraud when its membership is based on fraud?
Kevin Trudeau makes millions selling a book on natural cures that don't work. People know that he's a convicted thief but it hasn't made one iota of difference to his bottom line. I don't think Gelb is any different, especially since the polygraph is so ingrained into the police psyche.
I'm not trying to belabor the point here, I'm with you in believing that the polygraph should be tossed on the trash heap with all the junk that used to be used in criminal justice such as phrenology, lead bullet content analysis (a victory for the NAS, I might add), and repressed memory syndrome. But we, meaning academics and scientists, need to be more vocal in our oppositions to overcome the lure of wishful thinking that the polygraph provides.
Your site provides a basis for people to find out the truth behind the polygraph and it is a great bullhorn for the cause of those who have been harmed by these junk-peddlers. But everytime I see a show like Gelb's or on psychic detectives, I realize that getting rid of pseudoscience is harder that it looks. Pardon the pun but I wish that reality sold as well as wishful thinking.
Regards,
-digithead
Posted by George W. Maschke
- Jun 15, 2006, 07:11 PMIn light of the American Polygraph Association's unwillingness to hold Mr. Gelb accountable for his unethical conduct, I today filed a second ethics complaint against him with the California Association of Polygraph Examiners, of which Gelb is also a member:
A PDF version of this letter may be downloaded here:
http://antipolygraph.org/documents/gelb-complaint-cape-15-06-2006.pdf
CAPE President Jamie Skeeters promptly acknowledged receipt, mentioning that he has forwarded it to CAPE's ethics committee, which will investigate and advise both me and Gelb of its findings.
Quote15 June 2006
Hart Nibbrigkade 22
2597 XV The Hague
The Netherlands
maschke@antipolygraph.org
Mr. Jamie Skeeters
President
California Association of Polygraph Examiners
president@californiapolygraph.com
Dear Mr. Skeeters:
I write to bring to your attention misconduct by Edward I. Gelb of Los Angeles, a member of the California Association of Polygraph Examiners (CAPE).
In marketing his polygraph services, Mr. Gelb holds himself out to the public as holding a Ph.D. degree in psychology. On his website (http://www.polygraphexpert.com), Mr. Gelb styles himself, "Dr. Edward I. Gelb, Ph.D." In 1997, he represented himself as a Ph.D. to the United States Supreme Court as a co-signer (http://truth.boisestate.edu/amicus/list.html) of the Committee of Concerned Social Scientists' amicus brief (http://truth.boisestate.edu/amicus/brief.html) in U.S. v. Scheffer, where he is listed as "Ed Gelb, Ph.D." And on the CAPE website's List of Certified Examiners, Gelb is listed as "Dr. Gelb, Ed – Ph.D." (http://www.californiapolygraph.org/members/roster.htm#Certified%20Examiner).
However, AntiPolygraph.org has assembled compelling evidence that Mr. Gelb never received a doctoral degree from any accredited university. The comprehensive Dissertation Abstracts database (the definitive worldwide collection of doctoral dissertations including over 1.6 million records dating back to 1861) includes no doctoral dissertation by an Edward Gelb.
AntiPolygraph.org has obtained a copy of Gelb's resume (see attachment) that was included in court documents filed in a civil suit in 2002. Writing about himself in the third person, here is what Gelb says about his educational background: "Dr. Gelb was educated at the University of Southern California, LaSalle University and U.C.L.A.. He has been awarded a bachelor's degree in political science, a master's degree in psychology and a doctorate in psychology."
Gelb doesn't state where or when he earned which degree. Perhaps he wished the court to infer that he listed the universities in the same order that he listed his degrees and that he earned a bachelor's degree at USC, a master's degree at LaSalle, and a doctorate at UCLA. But this is certainly not the case. Had Gelb earned his Ph.D. at UCLA (or USC), his dissertation would surely be included in the Dissertation Abstracts database. That leaves LaSalle University. There is a legitimate institution of higher learning called LaSalle University in Philadelphia, but it awarded its first Ph.D. degree of any kind in 2002, years after Gelb began putting the letters "Ph.D." after his name. Mr. Gelb did not earn a doctoral degree there.
The "LaSalle University" that awarded Gelb his "doctorate" is a defunct, unaccredited diploma mill in Mandeville, Louisiana that was owned and operated by one Thomas James Kirk, A.K.A. Thomas McPherson. In 1996, LaSalle was raided by the FBI, and in 1997 Kirk pled guilty to federal fraud charges.
On 2 May 2006, the city council of Long Beach, California voted to approve a $150,000 one-year, extensible contract with Mr. Gelb's company, Intercept, Inc., to provide polygraph services to the Long Beach Police Department. Mr. Gelb's misrepresentation of himself as a Ph.D. may have unduly influenced Long Beach officials' decision making in awarding this contract. Mr. Gelb's claim to academic honors he has not earned misleads the public and gives him an unfair edge over those of his competitors who do not fraudulently claim to have doctoral degrees.
Mr. Gelb's conduct is inconsistent with Article 4 (Code of Ethics), Para. B of the CAPE Constitution, which requires that members "[m]aintain the highest standards of professional, moral and ethical conduct by assuming the responsibility for conduct and behavior designed to serve the cause of truth and justice." By deceitfully passing himself off as a Ph.D., Mr. Gelb is serving not the cause of truth and justice, but that of unscrupulous self interest.
I trust that you will promptly investigate this matter and take corrective action.
Sincerely,
[signed]
George W. Maschke
AntiPolygraph.org
A PDF version of this letter may be downloaded here:
http://antipolygraph.org/documents/gelb-complaint-cape-15-06-2006.pdf
CAPE President Jamie Skeeters promptly acknowledged receipt, mentioning that he has forwarded it to CAPE's ethics committee, which will investigate and advise both me and Gelb of its findings.
Posted by George W. Maschke
- Jun 15, 2006, 05:59 PMdigithead,
In view of the egregiousness of Gelb's unethical conduct, I think it would have been appropriate for the American Polygraph Association to expel him. As an alternative, it might have censured him and admonished him to cease and desist from falsely representing himself as a Ph.D. or face expulsion.
While the APA cannot revoke someone's ability to be a practicing polygrapher, it can set ethical standards for its membership. But it appears that the APA is unwilling to do so.
Despite the APA's unwillingness to take any disciplinary action against Mr. Gelb, I think the ethics complaint I filed has served a valuable purpose: that of showcasing the APA's fecklessness when it comes to setting ethical standards for its members. This is not something that the APA will be able to sweep under the rug. I'll be mentioning it to every journalist with whom I speak about polygraphy, and it will be prominently emphasized on AntiPolygraph.org for a long time to come, where it will be seen by potential purchasers of polygraph services.
In view of the egregiousness of Gelb's unethical conduct, I think it would have been appropriate for the American Polygraph Association to expel him. As an alternative, it might have censured him and admonished him to cease and desist from falsely representing himself as a Ph.D. or face expulsion.
While the APA cannot revoke someone's ability to be a practicing polygrapher, it can set ethical standards for its membership. But it appears that the APA is unwilling to do so.
Despite the APA's unwillingness to take any disciplinary action against Mr. Gelb, I think the ethics complaint I filed has served a valuable purpose: that of showcasing the APA's fecklessness when it comes to setting ethical standards for its members. This is not something that the APA will be able to sweep under the rug. I'll be mentioning it to every journalist with whom I speak about polygraphy, and it will be prominently emphasized on AntiPolygraph.org for a long time to come, where it will be seen by potential purchasers of polygraph services.
Posted by digithead
- Jun 15, 2006, 04:40 PMGeorge,
I'm wondering what sort of result you hoping for from the APA?
Certainly Gelb is a phony PhD, but no accreditation is needed to be a polygrapher. The APA may be the "accrediting" board for polygraphers but it by no means has any administrative or legal authority to revoke someone's ability to be a polygrapher. It merely provides a way of fooling consumers into thinking there is a true accrediting board. I could become a homeopathic doctor in mere minutes by filling out the "proper paperwork" and fool people into thinking that because I've been certified by a homeopathic governing board that I'm somehow practicing a viable alternative medicine rather than a dangerous pseudoscience.
If anything, Gelb should be sanctioned by the courts and other adminstrative bodies that he has testified in front of for perjury and/or false representation.
Unlike MDs, nurses, psychologists, and social workers who are licensed through the state, polygraphers do not have a true governing legal body which is enabled to revoke licenses or begin legal proceedings for fraud and misrepresentation.
Getting the APA to admit that one of their own is fraud will never happen. I still think the best course of action against this pseudoscience is to convince consumers (rather than practitioners) of this flapdoodle through research and science that it is a useless procedure that poses a tremendous risk to public safety.
In that regard, the NAS, Feinberg, yourself, Iacono, Furedy, Saxe, Crosse, and others are certainly providing enough evidence that the polygraph is useless. It's now time to challenge and convince the consumers of this junk that they need to stop using it because it causes more harm than good.
Trying to convince the APA that they're wrong is about as useful as talking to the taxman about poetry.
-digithead
I'm wondering what sort of result you hoping for from the APA?
Certainly Gelb is a phony PhD, but no accreditation is needed to be a polygrapher. The APA may be the "accrediting" board for polygraphers but it by no means has any administrative or legal authority to revoke someone's ability to be a polygrapher. It merely provides a way of fooling consumers into thinking there is a true accrediting board. I could become a homeopathic doctor in mere minutes by filling out the "proper paperwork" and fool people into thinking that because I've been certified by a homeopathic governing board that I'm somehow practicing a viable alternative medicine rather than a dangerous pseudoscience.
If anything, Gelb should be sanctioned by the courts and other adminstrative bodies that he has testified in front of for perjury and/or false representation.
Unlike MDs, nurses, psychologists, and social workers who are licensed through the state, polygraphers do not have a true governing legal body which is enabled to revoke licenses or begin legal proceedings for fraud and misrepresentation.
Getting the APA to admit that one of their own is fraud will never happen. I still think the best course of action against this pseudoscience is to convince consumers (rather than practitioners) of this flapdoodle through research and science that it is a useless procedure that poses a tremendous risk to public safety.
In that regard, the NAS, Feinberg, yourself, Iacono, Furedy, Saxe, Crosse, and others are certainly providing enough evidence that the polygraph is useless. It's now time to challenge and convince the consumers of this junk that they need to stop using it because it causes more harm than good.
Trying to convince the APA that they're wrong is about as useful as talking to the taxman about poetry.
-digithead
Posted by JunkMan
- Jun 15, 2006, 02:40 PMI guess every organization has it's problem child but for some reason or another has decided to put up with or ingnore the problem. Even worse, in many cases the problem child is rewarded. Strange phenomenon isn't it?