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Posted by Fair Chance
- May 16, 2006, 01:50 AMDear Bill,
I take no glee or happiness on being right in this matter. The FBI and the government in general are in need of people like you. As a taxpayer, I am furious about the wasted money spent taking you out of the system with the polygraph.
I know that within five years, the FBI is going to wish that they did not throw away alot of the applicants just because of the polygraph. They are flush with people wanting to join right now but I fear the future will not be as kind.
It can be a brutal club. I still think they are recovering from the excesses of the Hoover years.
Regards.
I take no glee or happiness on being right in this matter. The FBI and the government in general are in need of people like you. As a taxpayer, I am furious about the wasted money spent taking you out of the system with the polygraph.
I know that within five years, the FBI is going to wish that they did not throw away alot of the applicants just because of the polygraph. They are flush with people wanting to join right now but I fear the future will not be as kind.
It can be a brutal club. I still think they are recovering from the excesses of the Hoover years.
Regards.
Posted by Bill Crider
- May 16, 2006, 12:48 AMafter going thru it, I see that Fair chance is right about the FBI culture and for this reason, I am glad I did not make it in some ways.
Posted by Fair Chance
- May 15, 2006, 11:29 AMDear Allegedliar,
It is a quandry. Unfortunately, many of the current employees in the FBI have absolute faith in the polygraph because they have never had to take one for their current employment or passed on their first try and think it works (I passed, it must be valid). Questioning the polygraph policy itself would be going against existing Bureau policy and seen as "disloyal" to the the FBI. Like any government agency, the FBI demands loyalty and adherence to its culture or you will not be welcome.
I do agree with you that far too many agents look the other way when confronted with the choice of voicing their opinions concerning ethical issues or "keeping their jobs and promoting their careers." I am not saying that they are doing something illegal but I am saying that the FBI culture gets furious with anyone questioning their decisions in any manner or form.
The polygraph is accelerating this trend with the operator being the invisible gatekeeper who insures that only people with the "yes men" mentality get into the club. In less than five years, we will see if I am right. I will still be posting and people will justifiably hold me to the fire for my views.
Regards.
It is a quandry. Unfortunately, many of the current employees in the FBI have absolute faith in the polygraph because they have never had to take one for their current employment or passed on their first try and think it works (I passed, it must be valid). Questioning the polygraph policy itself would be going against existing Bureau policy and seen as "disloyal" to the the FBI. Like any government agency, the FBI demands loyalty and adherence to its culture or you will not be welcome.
I do agree with you that far too many agents look the other way when confronted with the choice of voicing their opinions concerning ethical issues or "keeping their jobs and promoting their careers." I am not saying that they are doing something illegal but I am saying that the FBI culture gets furious with anyone questioning their decisions in any manner or form.
The polygraph is accelerating this trend with the operator being the invisible gatekeeper who insures that only people with the "yes men" mentality get into the club. In less than five years, we will see if I am right. I will still be posting and people will justifiably hold me to the fire for my views.
Regards.
Posted by nolehce
- May 15, 2006, 01:06 AMQuote from: Bill Crider on May 14, 2006, 01:08 AM...I am not going to fault every agent and every person in the FBI. I spoke with a lot of agents during my 2 year odyssey and you may be surprised at how many of them dont hold the polygraph in high regard when off camera so to speak. Its a dumb process but lets not trash the whole work of the FBI....Yes, let's do trash the FBI as a whole -- I cannot accept apologism when it comes to the behaviour of this organization. If it hires its staff and agents based upon a lie, then it is an organization built upon lies. And we cannot trust such an organization to enforce our laws. And who are these men of steel you spoke with at the FBI -- sworn to uphold the law -- who will not even step out into the light of day to say publicly what they disclosed to you in private? Have they no shame? Are they merely running out the clock for their pensions?
These camera-shy men and women need to acquaint themselves with the practice known as resigning over principle. Were I to witness a resignation now and then over the bureau's misguided and misapplied use of the polygraph, I might have more respect for the FBI and its personnel. As it stands, they continue to go about their work either without principles or unwilling to stand up for them.
It should gravely concern any American -- especially failed candidates held to much higher standards during the FBI's hiring process and suspects scrutinized by the FBI in criminal investigations -- that such individuals are entrusted not only with national security but with the truth itself.
Posted by Bill Crider
- May 14, 2006, 01:08 AMI got the charts from my first 2 polygraphs and had them scored indendently and I will say that according to the scoring system, I did actually "fail" them. So while I do think the test is a bunch of crap and my opinion of the FBI definitely is less, I cant say its a conspiracy to deliberately fail people. I am not going to fault every agent and every person in the FBI. I spoke with a lot of agents during my 2 year odyssey and you may be surprised at how many of them dont hold the polygraph in high regard when off camera so to speak. Its a dumb process but lets not trash the whole work of the FBI. Every job in the world has parts that are stupid, that one is no exception.
Posted by FBI-Reject
- May 13, 2006, 05:54 PMMy second polygrapher was calm and cordial throughout. After a relatively short test, he told me that he "did not see anything that would hold me back," but the results are always reviewed.
After 6 weeks I got my rejection letter and "unsuitable" ruling due to issues that came up on my polygraph.
Now this is where it gets interesting. I requested my applicant file. I was shocked to read that my second polygrapher wrote that I was not a suitable polygraph subject and he recommended no further. This was after he said he thought I would pass.
It was then that I realized he had outright lied to my face. I'm sure his lie was a lie of convenience just to get me out of there in time for lunch. But this came after he lectured me in the pretest interview on how the FBI was searching for people of integrity. Well Mr. Polygrapher -- you just failed that one.
That only further cemented my view that:
1. The polygraph is a sham
2. Many polygraphers are more ethically and morally bankrupt than their subjects.
3. The FBI as an organization has a serious problem with arrogance, hypocracy, and incompetence.
Like allegedliar ... if the FBI were to ever request my cooperation in anything, I would do absolutely nothing to help them unless legally required. I believe that the organization is doing more damage to our country than it is helping it.
After 6 weeks I got my rejection letter and "unsuitable" ruling due to issues that came up on my polygraph.
Now this is where it gets interesting. I requested my applicant file. I was shocked to read that my second polygrapher wrote that I was not a suitable polygraph subject and he recommended no further. This was after he said he thought I would pass.
It was then that I realized he had outright lied to my face. I'm sure his lie was a lie of convenience just to get me out of there in time for lunch. But this came after he lectured me in the pretest interview on how the FBI was searching for people of integrity. Well Mr. Polygrapher -- you just failed that one.
That only further cemented my view that:
1. The polygraph is a sham
2. Many polygraphers are more ethically and morally bankrupt than their subjects.
3. The FBI as an organization has a serious problem with arrogance, hypocracy, and incompetence.
Like allegedliar ... if the FBI were to ever request my cooperation in anything, I would do absolutely nothing to help them unless legally required. I believe that the organization is doing more damage to our country than it is helping it.
Posted by George W. Maschke
- May 12, 2006, 02:46 AMQuote from: Ray on May 11, 2006, 06:51 PMGeorge,
Has the FBI ever released the official statistics regarding the pass/fail rate of applicant re-tests?
No, to the best of my knowledge, it has not.
Posted by Ray
- May 11, 2006, 06:51 PMGeorge,
Has the FBI ever released the official statistics regarding the pass/fail rate of applicant re-tests?
Has the FBI ever released the official statistics regarding the pass/fail rate of applicant re-tests?
Posted by George W. Maschke
- May 11, 2006, 03:36 PM8675309,
Your experience, that of Bill Crider, allegedliar, and many others who have posted here and/or contacted AntiPolygraph.org privately makes it crystal clear that the FBI's "re-tests" are a sham and that the results are foreordained to confirm the original examiner's opinion.
To the FBI polygraphers reading this: shame on you for being a party to this sham.
Your experience, that of Bill Crider, allegedliar, and many others who have posted here and/or contacted AntiPolygraph.org privately makes it crystal clear that the FBI's "re-tests" are a sham and that the results are foreordained to confirm the original examiner's opinion.
To the FBI polygraphers reading this: shame on you for being a party to this sham.
Posted by nolehce
- May 11, 2006, 03:57 AMI turned down the FBI's offer of a retest exactly because I felt I could not trust them. Also, in the interim, I landed a job offer in a different career field that pays $20,000 more a year. Gee, guess which path I chose!
I'm sorry to say that the FBI are a bunch of buffoons. They hold themselves out as protectors of national security. But what serious national security professional would shuffle the papers of one applicant's file with another's, as they did mine? Or call to offer me an Investigative Specialist position just days after they failed me on the poly for the Intelligence Analyst position? I had to tell THEM that THEY had already failed me -- so I likely wouldn't be in the running for whatever else they wanted to offer me. Talk about a bunch of bumbling a-holes.
Our family has a friend who is an FBI agent. I can no longer shake his hand when he greets me. To me, he now represents a great evil. The next time an FBI agent comes to my door seeking help with this or that, I will take great pleasure in telling him or her where to go.
If any FBI agents or staff are reading this, do you idiots realize what you are doing to the reputation of your bureau by tolerating the insanity of the polygraph? The needless enemies you are creating? Shame -- eternal shame on all of you and your organization.
One upside of my failed polygraph is that the next time I get called for jury duty, I can get out of it using the excuse: "No less than the FBI has informed me that I am a liar. When they polyraphed me, I myself sure thought that I was telling the truth. But they and their machine informed me otherwise. Therefore, your honor, I guess I simply cannot be trusted to sit on this jury. So thank you for excusing me."
I'm sorry to say that the FBI are a bunch of buffoons. They hold themselves out as protectors of national security. But what serious national security professional would shuffle the papers of one applicant's file with another's, as they did mine? Or call to offer me an Investigative Specialist position just days after they failed me on the poly for the Intelligence Analyst position? I had to tell THEM that THEY had already failed me -- so I likely wouldn't be in the running for whatever else they wanted to offer me. Talk about a bunch of bumbling a-holes.
Our family has a friend who is an FBI agent. I can no longer shake his hand when he greets me. To me, he now represents a great evil. The next time an FBI agent comes to my door seeking help with this or that, I will take great pleasure in telling him or her where to go.
If any FBI agents or staff are reading this, do you idiots realize what you are doing to the reputation of your bureau by tolerating the insanity of the polygraph? The needless enemies you are creating? Shame -- eternal shame on all of you and your organization.
One upside of my failed polygraph is that the next time I get called for jury duty, I can get out of it using the excuse: "No less than the FBI has informed me that I am a liar. When they polyraphed me, I myself sure thought that I was telling the truth. But they and their machine informed me otherwise. Therefore, your honor, I guess I simply cannot be trusted to sit on this jury. So thank you for excusing me."
Posted by Bill Crider
- May 11, 2006, 01:45 AMsame thing happened to me with 2 FBI retests. I failed more questions each time I took it.
Posted by polywantahcracker
- May 10, 2006, 11:49 PM8675309,
In retrospect would you have done anything different to prepare?
Sending you a PM.....
poly
In retrospect would you have done anything different to prepare?
Sending you a PM.....
poly
Posted by 8675309
- May 10, 2006, 10:32 PMNo mention of CM's whatsoever. I was however accused of lying on my application, but they already think I'm a drug dealer and drug addict, so whats one more? haha.
And I guarantee if I could have seen the charts, the application readings would be the lowest of them all. I was told that I showed almost zero reaction to the control question about lying to my boss. Then I was asked to explain how I could show such a low reading on that question, but have such difficulty with the application question. So I know she was bluffing, but I didnt play into her hands.
I was so close to answering that by saying "I never claimed the machine was faulty - just the person in front of it." But I bit my tongue - now i regret not saying it
And I guarantee if I could have seen the charts, the application readings would be the lowest of them all. I was told that I showed almost zero reaction to the control question about lying to my boss. Then I was asked to explain how I could show such a low reading on that question, but have such difficulty with the application question. So I know she was bluffing, but I didnt play into her hands.
I was so close to answering that by saying "I never claimed the machine was faulty - just the person in front of it." But I bit my tongue - now i regret not saying it
Posted by Mr. Mystery
- May 10, 2006, 10:02 PMI assume you were not accused of using countermeasures?
Posted by 8675309
- May 10, 2006, 09:42 PMI read the pdf between the first test and restest and I used mental CM's. Plus having gone through the first test, I knew exactly which questions were controls and which questions were relevant this time. Same exact relevant questions - very similar control questions.
Now I have a very good feeling you'll see a polygrapher post below me who says - "See I told you CM's dont work - you just wasted your chance" But regardless of what they say, no matter what you say or do in a restest is a moot point - you cannot pass. At least with the FBI - I can't speak for all.
I would say with very good confidence had that been my first exam, I would not have had a problem. Using the mental CM's seemed to work very well as I could feel my pulse get quicker, and I started to calm down right before he went onto the next question.
One of the main reasons I know the test was not fair was how I failed. If I really did have trouble with the drug questions the first time (which I still doubt), then it would make sense that I would be even more nervous the second time and surely fail that portion. But to fail on a question that I passed the first time? Sorry but I'm not buying that one.
Anyway I've vented - any other questions feel free to post and I'll answer.
Now I have a very good feeling you'll see a polygrapher post below me who says - "See I told you CM's dont work - you just wasted your chance" But regardless of what they say, no matter what you say or do in a restest is a moot point - you cannot pass. At least with the FBI - I can't speak for all.
I would say with very good confidence had that been my first exam, I would not have had a problem. Using the mental CM's seemed to work very well as I could feel my pulse get quicker, and I started to calm down right before he went onto the next question.
One of the main reasons I know the test was not fair was how I failed. If I really did have trouble with the drug questions the first time (which I still doubt), then it would make sense that I would be even more nervous the second time and surely fail that portion. But to fail on a question that I passed the first time? Sorry but I'm not buying that one.
Anyway I've vented - any other questions feel free to post and I'll answer.