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A forum for free and open discussion of polygraph-related topics
Posted by antrella
- Mar 09, 2006, 02:55 PMBill - from page 13 of the SA Applicant Booklet:
This examination will focus on national security and counterintelligence issues, whether the applicant has ever sold illegal drugs for profit or violated the FBI guidelines pertaining to the use of illegal drugs, and the accuracy and completeness of the Application for Employment (FD-140). Applicants who do not fall within acceptable parameters for any of these areas of the polygraph examination will be disqualified. Further, applicants who do not provide full information pertaining to drug usage/sales or do not meet the criteria of the drug policy for employment will be disqualified. For more information, see the Employment Drug Policy found in Chapter 1.
There aren't any real questions listed - that's all the booklet says about the poly. Perhaps you're referring to an earlier edition (pre-97)?
This examination will focus on national security and counterintelligence issues, whether the applicant has ever sold illegal drugs for profit or violated the FBI guidelines pertaining to the use of illegal drugs, and the accuracy and completeness of the Application for Employment (FD-140). Applicants who do not fall within acceptable parameters for any of these areas of the polygraph examination will be disqualified. Further, applicants who do not provide full information pertaining to drug usage/sales or do not meet the criteria of the drug policy for employment will be disqualified. For more information, see the Employment Drug Policy found in Chapter 1.
There aren't any real questions listed - that's all the booklet says about the poly. Perhaps you're referring to an earlier edition (pre-97)?
Posted by Bill Crider
- Mar 09, 2006, 02:45 PMI was "Yes" tested. In my case, all of the affirmative answers were the control questions. For example--"I am afraid that I will fail this test despte telling the truth" was one of my controls.
With the FBI test, the relevant questions are listed on page 13 of the Speical Agent Applicant Booklet and they read them almost verbatim during the test. It is impossible to not recognize them.
With the FBI test, the relevant questions are listed on page 13 of the Speical Agent Applicant Booklet and they read them almost verbatim during the test. It is impossible to not recognize them.
Posted by Twoblock
- Mar 09, 2006, 11:41 AMretcopper
Thanks.
I really do miss these boards during mining season.
Thanks.
I really do miss these boards during mining season.
Posted by retcopper
- Mar 09, 2006, 11:22 AMTwoblock:
Good luck in your mining ventures.
Good luck in your mining ventures.
Posted by Twoblock
- Mar 08, 2006, 05:52 PMnonombre
I have noticed your being logged in a few times since I posted my challenge to you. I guess you decline as usual. You make a wild statement and run.
Doesn't matter. My time on the computer will shortly be limited/none. Have to get ready for the mining season.
You have a good time trying to aggravate the troops now, ya hear.
I have noticed your being logged in a few times since I posted my challenge to you. I guess you decline as usual. You make a wild statement and run.
Doesn't matter. My time on the computer will shortly be limited/none. Have to get ready for the mining season.
You have a good time trying to aggravate the troops now, ya hear.
Posted by Joker
- Mar 06, 2006, 11:14 PMWell I must credit the claims of polygraph examiners to detect countermeasures. When I get one of the control questions perhaps I'll just think "I'M NOT USING COUNTERMEASURES! I'M NOT USING COUNTERMEASURES!"
This should pretty much assure me of a "lying" response on the correct (control) questions.
Regards
This should pretty much assure me of a "lying" response on the correct (control) questions.
Regards
Posted by quickfix
- Mar 06, 2006, 11:00 PMOne can't pass the test and be inconclusive at the same time. It's nonsense. No credible examiner would make such a statement, and I don't know any federal agency examiner who would. If countermeasures are suspected, it's a No Opinion call with suspected countermeasures. "River" should have been told as much (it's possible he was so told, and "River" is merely misquoting him). More likely would have been, "You might have passed had you not used countermeasures". That's a whole different story, since, if there was a lack of response to the relevant questions, it very well could be an NDI result.
Posted by Fair Chance
- Mar 06, 2006, 10:36 PMTwoblocks' point is very precise. The polygraph is supposed to be "highly accurate". I was the same person doing the same thing on three seperate occasions but the results swung wildly about the threshold of any doubt. I was "inconclusive", "not within acceptable parameters", and then "within acceptable parameters." I still look back and try to make sense out of it all. It makes no sense. They were completely satisfied that I was lying but somehow did not want to justify their conclusions and thus another polygraph. My third was absolutely identical to my first and for no other reason, I expected to be found inconclusive again but I was found "to be acceptable."
No true comparison of anything is possible because there are no audio or video tapes to perform an analysis or quality control. The tapes, or CDs or DVDs are cheap and easily stored yet the FBI keeps trying to fight such a simple add-on which could protect both the examiner and examinee. The FBI keeps trying to convince people that they are trying to protect the applicant's rights by not recording the exam but the applicant has no rights in an FBI application so the point is moot.
Just does not make sense Twoblock.
Regards.
No true comparison of anything is possible because there are no audio or video tapes to perform an analysis or quality control. The tapes, or CDs or DVDs are cheap and easily stored yet the FBI keeps trying to fight such a simple add-on which could protect both the examiner and examinee. The FBI keeps trying to convince people that they are trying to protect the applicant's rights by not recording the exam but the applicant has no rights in an FBI application so the point is moot.
Just does not make sense Twoblock.
Regards.
Posted by Twoblock
- Mar 06, 2006, 10:11 PMquickfix
When I mentioned you in my post, I guess I didn't make myself clear enough. I wasn't including the countermeasure issue of the test. I meant the structured process of how the test is performed i.e. the rights of the examinee and the limitations of the examiner and what an examinee is to expect when he goes for a screening poly.
Nonombre probably won't answer so I will ask you. Do you think nbkriver11's examiner has the legal right to treat him that way. Telling him "you passed but I'm going to deem it INC because I "think" you used countermeasures. He wasn't sure even though the chart showed altered breathing? That was his mistake and he should be called on it. Sounds like a rookie to me. Hell I could have read that chart.
I'll say here again polygraphers do not have the right to be "in your face punitive" during a test. They should do the test, score the test, make a determination then let it go. It's either DI, or NDI. I don't believe in INC. That's a polygrapher's cop out. An honest polygrapher should say "there's a mistake here. We're going to have to do this over until we get it right". Maybe over simplified, but that's what I believe.
When I mentioned you in my post, I guess I didn't make myself clear enough. I wasn't including the countermeasure issue of the test. I meant the structured process of how the test is performed i.e. the rights of the examinee and the limitations of the examiner and what an examinee is to expect when he goes for a screening poly.
Nonombre probably won't answer so I will ask you. Do you think nbkriver11's examiner has the legal right to treat him that way. Telling him "you passed but I'm going to deem it INC because I "think" you used countermeasures. He wasn't sure even though the chart showed altered breathing? That was his mistake and he should be called on it. Sounds like a rookie to me. Hell I could have read that chart.
I'll say here again polygraphers do not have the right to be "in your face punitive" during a test. They should do the test, score the test, make a determination then let it go. It's either DI, or NDI. I don't believe in INC. That's a polygrapher's cop out. An honest polygrapher should say "there's a mistake here. We're going to have to do this over until we get it right". Maybe over simplified, but that's what I believe.
Posted by quickfix
- Mar 06, 2006, 08:02 PMTwoblock: you're on the money, I don't need to lead people astray, it's pointless. To comment on nonombre's remark, let me take it a step further by saying that good examiners don't accuse examinees of employing CMs unless they're DAMN sure. Nonombre is absolutely on target when he says that when examinee is confronted, the behavior ceases immediately. The examinee is now "put on notice" that continued behavior will not be tolerated and examinee runs the risk of the exam being terminated. If you're an applicant, do you want to take the risk? Further, because of the quality control review, if there is any doubt of possible countermeasures having been employed, the test will not be supported, and the examinee will be called back for a re-test. I have to believe that the examinee must weigh the advantages and disadvantages of using CMs, and decide if the reward is worth the risk.
Posted by George W. Maschke
- Mar 06, 2006, 03:49 PMQuote from: nbkriver11 on Mar 05, 2006, 07:09 PMI took my first polygraph test last week. I used the tongue biting and breathing techniques. After the test the guy said that I passed the test on paper but he was going to deem it inconclusive becuase he thought I used counter measures. He said it was due to "unusual breathing patterns". We went through the set of 10 questions twice and then a third round were I had to answer yes to every question (including the one I said no to and lied). I am retaking the test next month. Is there anything I can do to pass it and how do you get around the third series of questions were you have to answer yes to all of them?
If indeed you employed breath holding (that is, breathing in and holding it), that was a mistake, as polygraphers tend to view this as "unnatural" and a probable countermeasure. On the other hand, blocking (that is, breathing out and waiting a few seconds before breathing in again) is perhaps the most frequently observed breathing reaction and polygraphers are not surprised to see it. However, if all of your breathing reactions looked identical (same length, same depth of breath), your polygrapher may have taken that as a sign of countermeasure use.
Note also that none of the breathing reactions desrcibed in Chapter 4 of The Lie Behind the Lie Detector call for deep breathing. On your "re-test," you might try using mental countermeasures and letting the breathing reactions take care of themselves.
As for the series where you were asked to answer all questions "yes," this is a counter-countermeasure technique called the "yes test." It is designed to trip up unsophisticated examinees. With the "yes test," the key to passing remains to show stronger reactions to the "control" questions than to the relevant questions. The "yes test" is addressed at pp. 157-58 of the 4th edition of TLBTLD.
Posted by retcopper
- Mar 06, 2006, 11:50 AMNonombre:
Good posts but your'e wasting your time. Most of the people in here DON'T want to believe what you are writing.
My experiences with counter measures are exactly the same as yours .
Good posts but your'e wasting your time. Most of the people in here DON'T want to believe what you are writing.
My experiences with counter measures are exactly the same as yours .
Posted by Twoblock
- Mar 06, 2006, 12:48 AMnonombre
Forget the fact that we are not talking about you being the polygrapher. Instead dwell on the first two posts of this thread and try to understand every little part of them as they are written. Then pick my post apart and tell us all, verbatim, what errors that I made in my response to nbkriver11. And ,damn it, none of us want any halfbaked gobbledegoop answers. The facts, man, just the facts. List them 1, 2, 3, 4, etc. You are guaranteed a response whether I agree or disagree. If I disagree I will give you a reason. If you disagree with any of my statements, give me a reason.
nbkdriver11
If you have researched this site enough, you know not to listen to advice from polygraphers. Although, quickfix has posted intelligently resently and he makes his living in polygraphy, I believe he won't lead anyone astray on the structure of the U. S. government polygraph. I. also, believe (by his posts) that he is in the position to know first hand.
Forget the fact that we are not talking about you being the polygrapher. Instead dwell on the first two posts of this thread and try to understand every little part of them as they are written. Then pick my post apart and tell us all, verbatim, what errors that I made in my response to nbkriver11. And ,damn it, none of us want any halfbaked gobbledegoop answers. The facts, man, just the facts. List them 1, 2, 3, 4, etc. You are guaranteed a response whether I agree or disagree. If I disagree I will give you a reason. If you disagree with any of my statements, give me a reason.
nbkdriver11
If you have researched this site enough, you know not to listen to advice from polygraphers. Although, quickfix has posted intelligently resently and he makes his living in polygraphy, I believe he won't lead anyone astray on the structure of the U. S. government polygraph. I. also, believe (by his posts) that he is in the position to know first hand.
Posted by nonombre
- Mar 05, 2006, 11:57 PMQuote from: polyfool on Mar 05, 2006, 10:41 PM
Nonombre,
I've posed this question to you once or twice before--no surprise--you never answered it. If polygraph examiners can correctly identify countermeasures, then why is it that examiners accuse examinees of employing such techniques when they haven't a clue as to what they are? I won't hold my breath for an answer.
Polyfool,
I do not mind answering your question. I don't know about the thousands of other polygraph examiners in the world. I can just answer for myself. My answer consists of two points:
1. I, for one never acuse an examinee of countermeasures unless I am quite sure.
2. As a result, the vast majority of those I confront of countermeasures confess to their use and IF I should choose to retest, the exact physiological behavior I saw on the polygraph charts immediately ceases. In the few cases where the examinee does not admit to what he has clearly done, the behavior STILL immediately stops. Why is it therefore, that in virtually every case, the actions you all insist we can't see seem to cease as soon as the examinee has been confronted with what it is you all continually insist we can't see...
In the end, I feel worst for all the truthful people who have been misguided by this site and taught to employ the myriad of utterly stupid actions which in so many causes them to lose their life's dream.
You guys blame the polygraph. I blame you.
Regards,
Nonombre
Posted by polyfool
- Mar 05, 2006, 10:41 PMQuote from: nonombre on Mar 05, 2006, 09:10 PM
nbkriver11,
Listen very closely. You were caught using countermeasures, plain and simple.
At first I was surprised the examiner even offered a re-test. Then I reflected upon it and remembered that on several occasions recently, when I caught am examinee attempting countermeasures, I confronted them and in each case, the behavior stopped. They did not always admit to what they had obviously done, but in every case the physiology that caused me to suspect cm's immediately stopped. In each case we were able to ultimately complete the exam and successfully resolve whatever the issue happened to be (screening/crim).
Please don't listen to posters on this site that pick apart nuances in phraseology (e.g., he thought???) The only thing I believe the examiner probably did wrong in your case was to imply that your examination was NDI numerically but that he believes CM's had been employed. I, for one would have never made that statement. I would have simply shut down the test, looked you in the face and announced that were we were about to have a very long talk about polygraph countermeasures.
In short, you seem like a decent enough fellow. Next time try dealing honestly with the examiner. There are many people who return for testing, drop their attempts to defeat the test, and are ultimately deemed NDI.
I very much hope you are one of those people.
Nonombre
nbrriver11,
Your polygraph examiner had a hunch that you might be using countermeaures. He couldn't say for sure. I agree with TwoBlock--it would be wise to gracefully back out of a retest.
If countermeasures are correctly employed, examiners cannot say for sure whether the examinee is using them. If that were the case, examiners would not falsely accuse examinees of using cm's who have never even heard of them.
Nonombre,
I've posed this question to you once or twice before--no surprise--you never answered it. If polygraph examiners can correctly identify countermeasures, then why is it that examiners accuse examinees of employing such techniques when they haven't a clue as to what they are? I won't hold my breath for an answer.
P.S. Your advice to nbkriver11 about "next time try dealing honestly with the examiner" is ironic since the examiner is anything but honest with the examinee.