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A forum for free and open discussion of polygraph-related topics
Posted by katedidd
- Feb 16, 2006, 06:26 AMHey, I am a victim of a crime- assault and rape! I gave my statement to authorities, he gave his. HE denied all till 2 weeks later, then admitted the act, but said it was consensual. SO, it is his word against mine. SO local Sheriff says take CVSA. I agreed. No problem But refused to sign release form. SO, charges dropped due to MY lack of cooperation!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I am the victim here. I told the truth, he did not! Pics of bruises on my body taken by local police department. I did NOT give consent for bruises being left on my body! I told them I would take CVSA, but would not sign release, which is MY right! Victims obviously have none here.
Posted by polyrized
- Feb 16, 2006, 05:20 AMEr, not so fast.
From personal experience I can tell you that they WILL share every aspect of that polygraph with not just other government intelligence agencies but other government agencies.
In my case extremely sensitive information about my private sexual history was shared with another agency, even though I had done nothing illegal or that indicated a mental health problem.
I too was led to believe the information would be respected, guarded and treated with sensitivity. Which is why I answered questions which were really none of their business with candor and complete honesty.
Remember, the goal of these polygraph interviews is to get people to give out information they otherwise would not. And giving out deceptive assurances as to what will happen to the information is part of their method and in my opinion, completely unethical.
From personal experience I can tell you that they WILL share every aspect of that polygraph with not just other government intelligence agencies but other government agencies.
In my case extremely sensitive information about my private sexual history was shared with another agency, even though I had done nothing illegal or that indicated a mental health problem.
I too was led to believe the information would be respected, guarded and treated with sensitivity. Which is why I answered questions which were really none of their business with candor and complete honesty.
Remember, the goal of these polygraph interviews is to get people to give out information they otherwise would not. And giving out deceptive assurances as to what will happen to the information is part of their method and in my opinion, completely unethical.
Posted by valerie
- Feb 16, 2006, 03:56 AMHi everyone,
Ok so this is what I've been told about all of these issues so far...
(1) FBI confidentiality
The FOIA is indeed only for the individual seeking information kept about themselves. Other individuals, or future employers cannot see the information (except other government intelligence agencies). I was told that even for FBI employees, when they apply for other jobs all that will show up was whether they did in fact work for the FBI or not. In my case, I was only applying for an internship position and have not been officially accepted - so no information will turn up at all.
The only way the FBI releases the information is if it subpoenaed. This is confidential information - just like medical records, it is not something that can be accessed by the public or even private companies.
(2) Future Polygraphs
After a polygraph exam, the polygrapher sends the results, along with his recommendation/interpretation of the results, to HQ. HQ then decides whether to agree with the polygrapher or not. If they do, you have to go through the official appeal process - in which you may get the option to retest. If they do not agree with the polygrapher, the results are deemed inconclusive, and you are automatically invited back for another test.
This is what I know so far. I do think it is strange, however, that the FBI is still conducting my background check even though I haven't passed my polygraph. It isn't a problem, of course, it doesn't matter to me at all. It just seems a tad inefficient to me.
But anyway, thank you again for all your responses. I learn more everyday it appears.
Best regards,
Val
Ok so this is what I've been told about all of these issues so far...
(1) FBI confidentiality
The FOIA is indeed only for the individual seeking information kept about themselves. Other individuals, or future employers cannot see the information (except other government intelligence agencies). I was told that even for FBI employees, when they apply for other jobs all that will show up was whether they did in fact work for the FBI or not. In my case, I was only applying for an internship position and have not been officially accepted - so no information will turn up at all.
The only way the FBI releases the information is if it subpoenaed. This is confidential information - just like medical records, it is not something that can be accessed by the public or even private companies.
(2) Future Polygraphs
After a polygraph exam, the polygrapher sends the results, along with his recommendation/interpretation of the results, to HQ. HQ then decides whether to agree with the polygrapher or not. If they do, you have to go through the official appeal process - in which you may get the option to retest. If they do not agree with the polygrapher, the results are deemed inconclusive, and you are automatically invited back for another test.
This is what I know so far. I do think it is strange, however, that the FBI is still conducting my background check even though I haven't passed my polygraph. It isn't a problem, of course, it doesn't matter to me at all. It just seems a tad inefficient to me.
But anyway, thank you again for all your responses. I learn more everyday it appears.
Best regards,
Val
Posted by Johnn
- Feb 15, 2006, 11:40 PMZippy,
I dont' think you understand the FBI hiring process. That's it - after a failed poly, there is no more. All Valerie can do now is wait for her "offer rescinded" letter and appeal.
I dont' think you understand the FBI hiring process. That's it - after a failed poly, there is no more. All Valerie can do now is wait for her "offer rescinded" letter and appeal.
Posted by Zippy
- Feb 15, 2006, 04:06 AM"Let me start out by saying that I am so relieved to have found this site. My dismal experience with the FBI polygraph was a mere 7 hours ago. I am so shocked and upset that I haven't had a bite to eat all day and feel physically and emotionally drained."
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First off, you will be called back for another poly. This is the game they play. Your poly ended the same way every poly I ever took ended. They want to see how you will react to this. Stay cool. I can almost guarantee you I am right. He tipped his hand when he said "no drug test, your test is over". You will have to take a drug test sometime during the hiring process. You stuck to your guns and did not admit to something that you did not do just to please the examiner. He/she knows you're telling the truth. No one gets in, or disqualified, based on one poly exam. If you really have your heart set on joining that pack of sick dogs, hang in there. They are going to call you back for more fun. Who knows, you may be the one who fixes that mess of an agency.
I took my first poly back in the late 60's. If you believe that poly, I raped my mother on many occasions, and enjoyed sexual relations with animals. You think I'm kidding? I'm not. I looked at him like he had two heads when he tried to discuss this with me. He acted like he was mad, mad, mad at me. He appeared to be furious with me, demanding I tell him the truth about "me and mom". I left thinking to myself, will I guess that is that. I'm a goin' into the infantry. Three poly exams later I got the position I was going for (Army Intelligence). I know, I know, oxymoron.
At 54 years of age, I took another entrance poly and the examiner tried to tell me there was DI on my answers about pot. (It's always drugs these days - back in the 60's it was sex with mom and animals) I haven't smelled pot in over thirty years. Again, I just laughed and asked her if she knew how ridiculous and obvious this game was. She smiled at me and told me if I couldn't tell the truth I would not get the job. One poly later, guess where I'm working. Yep.
Relax kid. They aren't finished with you yet. Don't ever sweat a poly. The poly doesn't work, and they know it. It's there for intimidation. Had you changed your story, you'd be out the door for good. Unless the examiner saw something else that made him believe you were not a good fit, you will be invited back. In the mean time, try to find honest work.
Don't let us die not knowing how long it took to call you back.
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First off, you will be called back for another poly. This is the game they play. Your poly ended the same way every poly I ever took ended. They want to see how you will react to this. Stay cool. I can almost guarantee you I am right. He tipped his hand when he said "no drug test, your test is over". You will have to take a drug test sometime during the hiring process. You stuck to your guns and did not admit to something that you did not do just to please the examiner. He/she knows you're telling the truth. No one gets in, or disqualified, based on one poly exam. If you really have your heart set on joining that pack of sick dogs, hang in there. They are going to call you back for more fun. Who knows, you may be the one who fixes that mess of an agency.
I took my first poly back in the late 60's. If you believe that poly, I raped my mother on many occasions, and enjoyed sexual relations with animals. You think I'm kidding? I'm not. I looked at him like he had two heads when he tried to discuss this with me. He acted like he was mad, mad, mad at me. He appeared to be furious with me, demanding I tell him the truth about "me and mom". I left thinking to myself, will I guess that is that. I'm a goin' into the infantry. Three poly exams later I got the position I was going for (Army Intelligence). I know, I know, oxymoron.
At 54 years of age, I took another entrance poly and the examiner tried to tell me there was DI on my answers about pot. (It's always drugs these days - back in the 60's it was sex with mom and animals) I haven't smelled pot in over thirty years. Again, I just laughed and asked her if she knew how ridiculous and obvious this game was. She smiled at me and told me if I couldn't tell the truth I would not get the job. One poly later, guess where I'm working. Yep.
Relax kid. They aren't finished with you yet. Don't ever sweat a poly. The poly doesn't work, and they know it. It's there for intimidation. Had you changed your story, you'd be out the door for good. Unless the examiner saw something else that made him believe you were not a good fit, you will be invited back. In the mean time, try to find honest work.
Don't let us die not knowing how long it took to call you back.
Posted by polyfool
- Feb 14, 2006, 11:17 PMQuote from: Johnn on Feb 14, 2006, 11:56 AMBill,
Is that so? I mean, isn't it like a health matter where the patient has a right to his own records, as opposed to someone asking for someone else's records?
In any case, I'm going to write a second letter contesting their results - only so that whoever receives my file will also see my letters.
Johnn,
You're right. The poly results are made available to the applicant at his request under the Privacy Act. All records on file with the FBI that pertain to the requestor must be made available to him or her. However, information regarding a third party can be excluded and withheld from release. Another person requesting your records under FOIA would not be allowed access to them because of an unwarranted invasion of your privacy, but some entities can be granted access to the information, such as the federal govt. and LE.
Bill,
I think Valerie may have been referring to the agent telling her others wouldn't find out about the results because they're confidential. However, as you alluded, that is not the case when it comes to other federal agencies and LE agencies as they can be granted access. I also had an agent try to tell me that failing the agency's polygraph was no big deal. They want applicants to think that, so they're easier to get rid of.
Posted by Johnn
- Feb 14, 2006, 11:56 AMBill,
Is that so? I mean, isn't it like a health matter where the patient has a right to his own records, as opposed to someone asking for someone else's records?
In any case, I'm going to write a second letter contesting their results - only so that whoever receives my file will also see my letters.
Is that so? I mean, isn't it like a health matter where the patient has a right to his own records, as opposed to someone asking for someone else's records?
In any case, I'm going to write a second letter contesting their results - only so that whoever receives my file will also see my letters.
Posted by Bill Crider
- Feb 14, 2006, 03:09 AMby the way, the FBI agent is lying to you (gasp)
the Polygraph information is not Strictly confidential or Top Secret or any of that horseshit. You can get it by filing a FOIA request. No subpeona or federal charges required. I did it as have many other on this site and got my poly charts, interviews and everything else mailed to me in about 8 weeks. The FBI lady knows this but feels the need to feed you yet another line of bullshit for some unknown reason.
Sorry, not my most professional post, but sometimes I get to thinking about it again and its just raw anger
GD, SOB--its been almost a year since my last failure and I'm just as pissed now as I was then.
the Polygraph information is not Strictly confidential or Top Secret or any of that horseshit. You can get it by filing a FOIA request. No subpeona or federal charges required. I did it as have many other on this site and got my poly charts, interviews and everything else mailed to me in about 8 weeks. The FBI lady knows this but feels the need to feed you yet another line of bullshit for some unknown reason.
Sorry, not my most professional post, but sometimes I get to thinking about it again and its just raw anger
GD, SOB--its been almost a year since my last failure and I'm just as pissed now as I was then.
Posted by SadderbutWiser
- Feb 12, 2006, 09:43 PMVal--I'm so sorry. I'm the one who posted "Hubby failed CIA Poly" and it truly stinks. My hubby is a wonderful man who, like yourself, has NEVER touched drugs, etc. He "failed" his first test, but then discovered that it wasn't a real "failure"--instead, they wanted him to return for more interrogation a week later. He actually "passed" the next polygraph, but has now become so disillusioned with the CIA that he plans to "get the clearance and run." By this I mean that he's been "waiting" for this job for over 15 months, and blew off several other career opps in the process. At this point, his income potential will basically double with the clearance. After he gets it, he plans to put in as little time at "the farm" as possible, and then get the heck outta there. It's a nasty organization, and the whole process has left us feeling quite "tainted" and dirty. I'm disgusted, and I'm so sorry that you had to be filthied in the manner that you were. I swear, the whole polygraph experience has a lot in common with rape, IMHO.
Posted by valerie
- Feb 12, 2006, 01:53 AMDear rickeygs,
I think it depends on what kind of law you go into. I can tell you that in my law class alone there are people from so many different backgrounds with so many different stories to tell. We have white, black, asian, heterosexual, homosexual, young, middle-aged, and old (a 65 year old woman just starting law school).
There are certainly firms that foster the "good 'ol boy" beliefs and practices. But there are many more firms that do not.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that an employer will not hire or fire you for your beliefs, or for things you have done in the past (to a certain extent of course). It is all about whether you are good at your job or not, and that's what counts.
I think it depends on what kind of law you go into. I can tell you that in my law class alone there are people from so many different backgrounds with so many different stories to tell. We have white, black, asian, heterosexual, homosexual, young, middle-aged, and old (a 65 year old woman just starting law school).
There are certainly firms that foster the "good 'ol boy" beliefs and practices. But there are many more firms that do not.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that an employer will not hire or fire you for your beliefs, or for things you have done in the past (to a certain extent of course). It is all about whether you are good at your job or not, and that's what counts.
Posted by rickeygs
- Feb 12, 2006, 12:17 AMYou stated you are going into law instead of joining the FBI. I hope you realize the law community is also a club whereby your present beliefs will be sorefully tested. In law it is not whether a person is guilty or innocent, it is about winning and losing.
Posted by Fair Chance
- Feb 11, 2006, 11:20 PMDear Valerie,
I know the awful feeling of being falsely accused of lying and having your reputation attacked.
Please appeal in writing. It might not change the outcome but at least your appeal and letter of disagreement with polygraph findings will let the FBI know that they lost another qualified candidate due to this insanity of trust in this machine.
The FBI has too many people in high places who blindly believe in the polygraph. Every appeal letter adds to a stack of public opinion of ex-applicants who will not think highly of the FBI or its mission for the rest of their lives.
I do everything I can to educate people on the grave shortcomings of polygraph examination under the current FBI guidelines. I would not have any friends or family apply to any law enforcement agency who believes in the validity of the polygraph for pre-screening applicants.
Try and get some sleep, pick yourself up, and get on with a few certified letters to the person who wrote your "not within acceptable parameters."
The FBI application process is not within acceptable pararmeters.
Regards.
I know the awful feeling of being falsely accused of lying and having your reputation attacked.
Please appeal in writing. It might not change the outcome but at least your appeal and letter of disagreement with polygraph findings will let the FBI know that they lost another qualified candidate due to this insanity of trust in this machine.
The FBI has too many people in high places who blindly believe in the polygraph. Every appeal letter adds to a stack of public opinion of ex-applicants who will not think highly of the FBI or its mission for the rest of their lives.
I do everything I can to educate people on the grave shortcomings of polygraph examination under the current FBI guidelines. I would not have any friends or family apply to any law enforcement agency who believes in the validity of the polygraph for pre-screening applicants.
Try and get some sleep, pick yourself up, and get on with a few certified letters to the person who wrote your "not within acceptable parameters."
The FBI application process is not within acceptable pararmeters.
Regards.
Posted by Bill Crider
- Feb 11, 2006, 08:13 PMI am sorry to hear what happened to you. These FBI polygraphers are a bunch of self righteous a-holes. Hearing your story makes me angry all over again.
(you can read my story on the personal statements section of the site, it is very similar to yours)-but they accused me of selling also. Idiots.
(you can read my story on the personal statements section of the site, it is very similar to yours)-but they accused me of selling also. Idiots.
Posted by valerie
- Feb 11, 2006, 06:11 PMAgain, thank you for your responses. I have been feeling a little better today. After speaking with the agent that interviewed me, she said that this polygraph information is strictly confidential and can only be released if the individual is charged with a crime and the FBI is subpoenaed for the information. I have now moved past the "upset" crying stage into more of an anger stage.
After reading so many posts, I am upset not only because the FBI and other agencies are turning down well-qualified people, but also because of these horrible experiences that they are putting innocent people through. Whether a person passes a polygraph or not is one thing, but to be subjected to abuse on the part of the polygrapher is simply unacceptable. I know that I am decent human being as are so many other people on this site. I am not a criminal and in no way deserved the treatment I received yesterday. The more I read regarding this matter, the more disgusted I am.
After reading so many posts, I am upset not only because the FBI and other agencies are turning down well-qualified people, but also because of these horrible experiences that they are putting innocent people through. Whether a person passes a polygraph or not is one thing, but to be subjected to abuse on the part of the polygrapher is simply unacceptable. I know that I am decent human being as are so many other people on this site. I am not a criminal and in no way deserved the treatment I received yesterday. The more I read regarding this matter, the more disgusted I am.
Posted by George W. Maschke
- Feb 11, 2006, 02:53 PMValerie,
I concur with polyfool. You should definitely contest the polygrapher's opinion in writing. You don't want the last thing in your FBI file to be your polygrapher's uncontested false accusation that you lied.
But as polyfool also noted, while the FBI will often grant "re-tests," it is only to create the illusion of fairness. The results are foreordained: FBI applicants almost always "fail" the second time, too. In terms of institutional politics, the FBI's polygraphers simply cannot afford to be seen reversing more than a handful of polygraph decisions.
What the FBI did to you (and many others, including myself) was deeply wrong, and I hope you'll consider working with us to put an end to polygraph screening. Misplaced governmental reliance on this pseudoscience is harming not only individuals such as ourselves, but is also undermining national security.
For background on polygraph validity, policy, and procedure, see The Lie Behind the Lie Detector.
I concur with polyfool. You should definitely contest the polygrapher's opinion in writing. You don't want the last thing in your FBI file to be your polygrapher's uncontested false accusation that you lied.
But as polyfool also noted, while the FBI will often grant "re-tests," it is only to create the illusion of fairness. The results are foreordained: FBI applicants almost always "fail" the second time, too. In terms of institutional politics, the FBI's polygraphers simply cannot afford to be seen reversing more than a handful of polygraph decisions.
What the FBI did to you (and many others, including myself) was deeply wrong, and I hope you'll consider working with us to put an end to polygraph screening. Misplaced governmental reliance on this pseudoscience is harming not only individuals such as ourselves, but is also undermining national security.
For background on polygraph validity, policy, and procedure, see The Lie Behind the Lie Detector.