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Posted by Johnn
- Feb 03, 2006, 09:37 PMWell, today I received my other "offer rescinded - no further avenue" letter.
Difference between this letter and the last is that I no longer care.
With that said, the second polygrapher's name is Seth - and he's from the New York City Field Office. I forgot what his last name was, but how many Seth's polygraphers are there from the New York City field office?
Hi Seth! Are you in here monitoring these boards "day in and day out"!?
To George,
I apologize for the Trimarco comparison.
Difference between this letter and the last is that I no longer care.
With that said, the second polygrapher's name is Seth - and he's from the New York City Field Office. I forgot what his last name was, but how many Seth's polygraphers are there from the New York City field office?
Hi Seth! Are you in here monitoring these boards "day in and day out"!?
To George,
I apologize for the Trimarco comparison.
Posted by nolehce
- Jan 23, 2006, 09:31 PMThe vibe I get from the original post is that the examiner was Steve Sparks (Stephen Sparks?). Did he have greyish hair? A beard or scruff? Was the examination done in the DC office of the Northern Virginia office?
While I understand that most polygraphers display a gruff attitude designed to intimidate, the can't-be-bothered sound of this particular examiner reminds me of Mr. Sparks.
Uggh -- an angry shiver runs through me when I think of him and that day spent strapped to the machine.
While I understand that most polygraphers display a gruff attitude designed to intimidate, the can't-be-bothered sound of this particular examiner reminds me of Mr. Sparks.
Uggh -- an angry shiver runs through me when I think of him and that day spent strapped to the machine.
Posted by George W. Maschke
- Jan 23, 2006, 11:52 AMJohnn,
Based on your account, it seems clear that your polygraph was rigged. Every federal polygrapher must know that it is not acceptable to accuse a subject of deception regarding a relevant issue during the pre-test phase. The predictable result is that the examinee will become sensitized to the relevant question and "fail" -- whether or not he is telling the truth. Again, every polygrapher knows this, and what your examiner did can only be considered willful misconduct.
Your polygrapher no doubt felt free to do so in part because of the FBI's deliberate policy of not recording polygraph examinations, which makes it impossible for an examinee to prove examiner misconduct. Nonetheless, I think you should file a complaint with the FBI's Office of Professional Responsibility and DOJ's Inspector General. Addresses are provided at pp. 166-67 of the 4th edition of The Lie Behind the Lie Detector.
You might also want to name and shame this rogue polygrapher right here. His identity is not a state secret. Publicly naming him could help in identifying others he may have similarly abused, and may encourage them to also lodge official complaints. An OPR/IG referral from several individuals would be harder to dismiss than a report by a single victim. Naming your polygrapher may also help to deter him from doing to others in the future what he did to you.
I must put in a word in defense of Jack Trimarco, who administered my FBI pre-employment polygraph. Although he falsely accused me of deception, he did not treat me with hostility, and to the best of my recollection his demeanor remained professional at all times. It was my LAPD polygrapher, Ervin Youngblood, whose conduct was overtly hostile. But that was only after the "in-test" phase. Even he did not accuse me of deception during the pre-test.
Based on your account, it seems clear that your polygraph was rigged. Every federal polygrapher must know that it is not acceptable to accuse a subject of deception regarding a relevant issue during the pre-test phase. The predictable result is that the examinee will become sensitized to the relevant question and "fail" -- whether or not he is telling the truth. Again, every polygrapher knows this, and what your examiner did can only be considered willful misconduct.
Your polygrapher no doubt felt free to do so in part because of the FBI's deliberate policy of not recording polygraph examinations, which makes it impossible for an examinee to prove examiner misconduct. Nonetheless, I think you should file a complaint with the FBI's Office of Professional Responsibility and DOJ's Inspector General. Addresses are provided at pp. 166-67 of the 4th edition of The Lie Behind the Lie Detector.
You might also want to name and shame this rogue polygrapher right here. His identity is not a state secret. Publicly naming him could help in identifying others he may have similarly abused, and may encourage them to also lodge official complaints. An OPR/IG referral from several individuals would be harder to dismiss than a report by a single victim. Naming your polygrapher may also help to deter him from doing to others in the future what he did to you.
I must put in a word in defense of Jack Trimarco, who administered my FBI pre-employment polygraph. Although he falsely accused me of deception, he did not treat me with hostility, and to the best of my recollection his demeanor remained professional at all times. It was my LAPD polygrapher, Ervin Youngblood, whose conduct was overtly hostile. But that was only after the "in-test" phase. Even he did not accuse me of deception during the pre-test.
Posted by polyfool
- Jan 22, 2006, 11:29 PMEos,
Your suspicion is correct about nobody liking the polygraph or polygraph examiners. I know of at least one hiring manager in the FBI who HATES the poly because it stopped him from hiring the "best and the brightest." Can you imagine the tension between hiring mgrs. and the poly dept.? As a manager, you want to hire the best, so you make job offers to the most talented, only to be stopped dead in your tracks because of a know-it-all, jerk polygraph examiner and his meaningless test. Not only do you not get to hire the "best and the brightest, " but the job goes unfilled for god knows how long, you're forced to lower your standards and hire a sub-par employee just to get the position filled. I think what reallly gets me most about this whole thing is that the government is trusting such an important decision as national security to be made by a bunch of uneducated, sleazy polygraph examiners. It's really hard to fathom that this is going on, but it's true. The government relies on the most unethical bunch of sleazeballs to make these important decisions while the educated who know better are forced to stand by and watch it happen. Why is no one paying attention and doing nothing about it? No wonder employees are leaving the agency in droves and those who know better are staying away and not applying there. It's utter nonsense.
Your suspicion is correct about nobody liking the polygraph or polygraph examiners. I know of at least one hiring manager in the FBI who HATES the poly because it stopped him from hiring the "best and the brightest." Can you imagine the tension between hiring mgrs. and the poly dept.? As a manager, you want to hire the best, so you make job offers to the most talented, only to be stopped dead in your tracks because of a know-it-all, jerk polygraph examiner and his meaningless test. Not only do you not get to hire the "best and the brightest, " but the job goes unfilled for god knows how long, you're forced to lower your standards and hire a sub-par employee just to get the position filled. I think what reallly gets me most about this whole thing is that the government is trusting such an important decision as national security to be made by a bunch of uneducated, sleazy polygraph examiners. It's really hard to fathom that this is going on, but it's true. The government relies on the most unethical bunch of sleazeballs to make these important decisions while the educated who know better are forced to stand by and watch it happen. Why is no one paying attention and doing nothing about it? No wonder employees are leaving the agency in droves and those who know better are staying away and not applying there. It's utter nonsense.
Posted by EosJupiter
- Jan 22, 2006, 10:37 PMJohnn
I feel your pain and god willing we will get rid of this infernal machine. And the assclowns that support and use it. As I have found in dealing with feds, two things rise to the surface in these organizations. 1- THe best and brightest, 2 - Turds. THe best and brightest move on and leave, leaving the turds to take over. It appears nobody ever flushes these types at the FBI.
Its only a matter of time before the polygraph is done. By my guess, and I admit to it as a guess, nobody likes the polygraph or polygraphers. THis includes those that pass. Given a choice to get rid of the polygraph or submit to one. Guess which way I believe the majority will choose. According to the American Polygraph Association (APA) President.
Link:
http://www.polygraph.org/presidentspeech.htm
They want to win the media war and the publics perception of the polygraph. Every test they give (good or bad), adds another to the army of people who dislike the machine and polygraphers. Its not a pleasant affair, and human nature being adverse to unpleasant things, dooms them from the outset. Its all a matter of time. And we will win, because truth, science, and public opinion wins the day !!!
Good luck and you can do better than the FBI
Regards ....
I feel your pain and god willing we will get rid of this infernal machine. And the assclowns that support and use it. As I have found in dealing with feds, two things rise to the surface in these organizations. 1- THe best and brightest, 2 - Turds. THe best and brightest move on and leave, leaving the turds to take over. It appears nobody ever flushes these types at the FBI.
Its only a matter of time before the polygraph is done. By my guess, and I admit to it as a guess, nobody likes the polygraph or polygraphers. THis includes those that pass. Given a choice to get rid of the polygraph or submit to one. Guess which way I believe the majority will choose. According to the American Polygraph Association (APA) President.
Link:
http://www.polygraph.org/presidentspeech.htm
They want to win the media war and the publics perception of the polygraph. Every test they give (good or bad), adds another to the army of people who dislike the machine and polygraphers. Its not a pleasant affair, and human nature being adverse to unpleasant things, dooms them from the outset. Its all a matter of time. And we will win, because truth, science, and public opinion wins the day !!!
Good luck and you can do better than the FBI
Regards ....
Posted by Johnn
- Jan 22, 2006, 09:35 PMQuote from: Fair Chance on Jan 22, 2006, 07:37 PMDear Johnn,
The FBI is truly broken. Their insane trust in the polygraph I believe will ruin the agency. Previous to such use of the polygraph in the FBI employment process, what did we have, one or two spies? Look at the damage this policy has had on the amount of applicants who were highly qualified who were accused of bad doings. I cannot recommend that anyone apply to such an agency let alone someone who is highly intelligent and on the cutting edge of technology. The Director has implored existing FBI employees to recommend their family and friends for IT positions in the Bureau that close at the end of January, 2006. Do you even thing for a moment I would like to have a relative or friend hate me for the rest of their lives for destroying their reputation and chances of getting another government job because of a false polygraph result?
I have consistantly stated that the FBI will have a crisis because they are not going to get top notch talent because of the polygraph. This has nothing to do with security. There is no truly sharp scientific mind that can solve problems that is going to accept the validity of the polygraph as a scientific tool capable of telling truth from fiction. They are going to get exactly what they want, unthinking yes men who cannot or will not think outside of the box. Unfortunately, the terrorist are not handicapped by such thinking. I want my country safe, I want my children safe, and the use of polygraph in employment pre-screening is not going to do it.
Regards.
I worked in IT for over 10 years - 5 years with the feds but in a different agency. Like George, I received awards for my service. I guess they feel that despite the fact, I was a drug user/national security risk back then as well.
Posted by Fair Chance
- Jan 22, 2006, 07:37 PMDear Johnn,
The FBI is truly broken. Their insane trust in the polygraph I believe will ruin the agency. Previous to such use of the polygraph in the FBI employment process, what did we have, one or two spies? Look at the damage this policy has had on the amount of applicants who were highly qualified who were accused of bad doings. I cannot recommend that anyone apply to such an agency let alone someone who is highly intelligent and on the cutting edge of technology. The Director has implored existing FBI employees to recommend their family and friends for IT positions in the Bureau that close at the end of January, 2006. Do you even thing for a moment I would like to have a relative or friend hate me for the rest of their lives for destroying their reputation and chances of getting another government job because of a false polygraph result?
I have consistantly stated that the FBI will have a crisis because they are not going to get top notch talent because of the polygraph. This has nothing to do with security. There is no truly sharp scientific mind that can solve problems that is going to accept the validity of the polygraph as a scientific tool capable of telling truth from fiction. They are going to get exactly what they want, unthinking yes men who cannot or will not think outside of the box. Unfortunately, the terrorist are not handicapped by such thinking. I want my country safe, I want my children safe, and the use of polygraph in employment pre-screening is not going to do it.
Regards.
The FBI is truly broken. Their insane trust in the polygraph I believe will ruin the agency. Previous to such use of the polygraph in the FBI employment process, what did we have, one or two spies? Look at the damage this policy has had on the amount of applicants who were highly qualified who were accused of bad doings. I cannot recommend that anyone apply to such an agency let alone someone who is highly intelligent and on the cutting edge of technology. The Director has implored existing FBI employees to recommend their family and friends for IT positions in the Bureau that close at the end of January, 2006. Do you even thing for a moment I would like to have a relative or friend hate me for the rest of their lives for destroying their reputation and chances of getting another government job because of a false polygraph result?
I have consistantly stated that the FBI will have a crisis because they are not going to get top notch talent because of the polygraph. This has nothing to do with security. There is no truly sharp scientific mind that can solve problems that is going to accept the validity of the polygraph as a scientific tool capable of telling truth from fiction. They are going to get exactly what they want, unthinking yes men who cannot or will not think outside of the box. Unfortunately, the terrorist are not handicapped by such thinking. I want my country safe, I want my children safe, and the use of polygraph in employment pre-screening is not going to do it.
Regards.
Posted by Johnn
- Jan 22, 2006, 06:43 PMI took my polygraph retest last week, and now I know for sure that FBI polygraph retests are a setup to make it appear as if the department uses fair hiring standards.
First of all, I was made to wait in the lobby for 20 minutes before the guy showed up. When he finally got out of the elevator, he quickly walked in front of me in an aggresive manner, and announced his name and told me that he was giving me the polygraph. I took out my hand to meet him, but of course, he ignored me and proceeded to the elevator bank. At this point I knew that this was going to turn out bad, because unlike the first examiner, this person acted angry.
He reminds me of the person who gave George his first polygraph - that Trimarco guy -full of arrogance and hostility.
When we were in the elevator, he did not say one word to me, but I didn't say anything to him either. Finally, when the doors opened, he scurried to the examination room, leaving me with no choice but to practically run after him - a sign of hostility, if you ask me.
When I got in the room, he closed the door behind me and made me sign a waiver that there are no recording devices in the room, and that if I understand this. I signed and said yes. Then, he gave me another sheet of paper with the department drug guidelines, which I meet - I checked the truth - that I've NEVER used illegal drugs in my entire life.
When the examiner took the paper back, he shifted angrily in his chair as if I were lying on paper. He asked me about 5 times if I meet the drug guidelines, and I said yes to all five times. He then snapped, "The last time you took the test, you lied, so why can't you just be honest with me?" That's when I told him what the denomination of my religion is and how taking drugs is prohibited, but he couldn't have cared less. He said, "But you lied the last time, so maybe when you were younger, you made a few mistakes, like we all make sometimes". I told him that I've never used drugs in my entire life and that that's the solid truth. Then I told him that the polygraph was mistaken in my case. Then he interrupted to say that polygraphs are 95% correct. And I interrupted back and said, "Well maybe I fell in the 5%". He didn't like that, his eyes glared at me up and down for about 5 seconds. He leaned over his chair and raised his voice, "The only reason why you failed the last test is because you lied, plain and simple! And I am not about to work with someone who lies because we are defending the United States and I have family here...", blah blah blah. I told him that I have family here as well, but he interrupted me to lecture me on more crap about the validity of the polygraph.
I already knew that he was going to fail me on this test - I felt that he was being totally biased. A fair retest will not involve the polygrapher knowing that you took and "failed" a previous test.
He finally asked me if I've done research on the polygraph, and he proceeded to say that he's on these boards day in and day out, and that anyone who practices the frauds published on these websites will be found out immediately, especially with him because he's a grand master at detecting this kind of stuff. Then he said that the people on these polygraph boards take your money and sell you garbage that doesn't work. My first thought was that this polygraph website - the first that comes up while searching on google, does not sell anything, so now I know for a fact that this guy is a liar himself. Either that, or he's not spending as much time, "day in and day out" on these boards at all. I guess either way makes him a liar.
Anyway, when he finally hooked me up to the machine, although initially I was so nervous that my hands were trembling; I felt a lot calmer after I didn't have to look at him and he returned to the controls.
I was very calm during the entire test - no question about it. I did not experience any "fight or flight" symptoms at all - I was a lot calmer than the first test, that's for sure. I can say that I was so calm, it was as if I were at work. I know in my heart that I passed that retest - whether this unprofessional tester says so or not. On my last test, I did a few things that I shouldn't have done. I took deep breaths and I was too anxious. I found out on this test when the examiner told me not to take deep breaths that your'e not supposed to do so.
(Not that it truly makes any difference - obviously the exam doesn't work, anyway)
Of course, when he returned, he said that I lied on this test as well. He said, "Not only did the test show that you lied on the drug usage question, but it also showed that you lied on your application, that you lie to employers and that you are the type of person who makes mistakes and covers them". He failed me on everything - except selling drugs and what my name is, I guess.
What's funny is that he showed physiological symptoms of lying himself. Not once did he look at me straight in the eye to tell me what his findings were. Unlike the beginning, he was not hostile at all. He did not raise his voice nor did he attack me on anything, but just told me that I failed and on what.
He then told me that he would have to help me make a statement if I'm about to make a case for a third poly. I asked him (very angry) if he was kidding, and that I am not taking any more polygraphs because clearly, for someone to "fail" twice while telling the truth does not make the polygraph's validity 95%. They simply do not work. And I also told him that his particular machine is defective. Then, he started yapping away - without looking at me, but I was so angry, that I stood up while he was at it, and I started putting on my coat. He asked me if I wanted him to help me put a statement together to make an admission to something so that it will be easy for me to get a third polygraph - what a liar, there's no such thing as making an admission and getting a third polygraph! Instead, I told him that the only thing I want him to do is to escort me downstairs. He said, "okay, I understand completely how you feel", which I snapped, "No you don't".
He then said that I should be getting a letter in about 2 or 3 weeks from HQ.
It's funny how when the office called me at work to re-schedule this exam, they told me that I would have to fill out an sf-86 form again, which I did, and bring it in when I take the polygraph. The polygrapher NEVER asked for it, which means that he intended to fail me anyway.
The actual test did not even last for 20 minutes - the entire session was for about 45 minutes in comparison to the 6 hours when I took the test the last time.
At this point, I feel very disillusioned. How can people who are in authority be so evily inclined to a machine which does not work? Why is it that "so many" people get to pass and not me? My sister did not have these issues when she took her polygraph for the police department at all. I just don't know why it has to be me, especially since I did not do any of the things I was accused of doing - nothing at all!
First of all, I was made to wait in the lobby for 20 minutes before the guy showed up. When he finally got out of the elevator, he quickly walked in front of me in an aggresive manner, and announced his name and told me that he was giving me the polygraph. I took out my hand to meet him, but of course, he ignored me and proceeded to the elevator bank. At this point I knew that this was going to turn out bad, because unlike the first examiner, this person acted angry.
He reminds me of the person who gave George his first polygraph - that Trimarco guy -full of arrogance and hostility.
When we were in the elevator, he did not say one word to me, but I didn't say anything to him either. Finally, when the doors opened, he scurried to the examination room, leaving me with no choice but to practically run after him - a sign of hostility, if you ask me.
When I got in the room, he closed the door behind me and made me sign a waiver that there are no recording devices in the room, and that if I understand this. I signed and said yes. Then, he gave me another sheet of paper with the department drug guidelines, which I meet - I checked the truth - that I've NEVER used illegal drugs in my entire life.
When the examiner took the paper back, he shifted angrily in his chair as if I were lying on paper. He asked me about 5 times if I meet the drug guidelines, and I said yes to all five times. He then snapped, "The last time you took the test, you lied, so why can't you just be honest with me?" That's when I told him what the denomination of my religion is and how taking drugs is prohibited, but he couldn't have cared less. He said, "But you lied the last time, so maybe when you were younger, you made a few mistakes, like we all make sometimes". I told him that I've never used drugs in my entire life and that that's the solid truth. Then I told him that the polygraph was mistaken in my case. Then he interrupted to say that polygraphs are 95% correct. And I interrupted back and said, "Well maybe I fell in the 5%". He didn't like that, his eyes glared at me up and down for about 5 seconds. He leaned over his chair and raised his voice, "The only reason why you failed the last test is because you lied, plain and simple! And I am not about to work with someone who lies because we are defending the United States and I have family here...", blah blah blah. I told him that I have family here as well, but he interrupted me to lecture me on more crap about the validity of the polygraph.
I already knew that he was going to fail me on this test - I felt that he was being totally biased. A fair retest will not involve the polygrapher knowing that you took and "failed" a previous test.
He finally asked me if I've done research on the polygraph, and he proceeded to say that he's on these boards day in and day out, and that anyone who practices the frauds published on these websites will be found out immediately, especially with him because he's a grand master at detecting this kind of stuff. Then he said that the people on these polygraph boards take your money and sell you garbage that doesn't work. My first thought was that this polygraph website - the first that comes up while searching on google, does not sell anything, so now I know for a fact that this guy is a liar himself. Either that, or he's not spending as much time, "day in and day out" on these boards at all. I guess either way makes him a liar.
Anyway, when he finally hooked me up to the machine, although initially I was so nervous that my hands were trembling; I felt a lot calmer after I didn't have to look at him and he returned to the controls.
I was very calm during the entire test - no question about it. I did not experience any "fight or flight" symptoms at all - I was a lot calmer than the first test, that's for sure. I can say that I was so calm, it was as if I were at work. I know in my heart that I passed that retest - whether this unprofessional tester says so or not. On my last test, I did a few things that I shouldn't have done. I took deep breaths and I was too anxious. I found out on this test when the examiner told me not to take deep breaths that your'e not supposed to do so.
(Not that it truly makes any difference - obviously the exam doesn't work, anyway)
Of course, when he returned, he said that I lied on this test as well. He said, "Not only did the test show that you lied on the drug usage question, but it also showed that you lied on your application, that you lie to employers and that you are the type of person who makes mistakes and covers them". He failed me on everything - except selling drugs and what my name is, I guess.
What's funny is that he showed physiological symptoms of lying himself. Not once did he look at me straight in the eye to tell me what his findings were. Unlike the beginning, he was not hostile at all. He did not raise his voice nor did he attack me on anything, but just told me that I failed and on what.
He then told me that he would have to help me make a statement if I'm about to make a case for a third poly. I asked him (very angry) if he was kidding, and that I am not taking any more polygraphs because clearly, for someone to "fail" twice while telling the truth does not make the polygraph's validity 95%. They simply do not work. And I also told him that his particular machine is defective. Then, he started yapping away - without looking at me, but I was so angry, that I stood up while he was at it, and I started putting on my coat. He asked me if I wanted him to help me put a statement together to make an admission to something so that it will be easy for me to get a third polygraph - what a liar, there's no such thing as making an admission and getting a third polygraph! Instead, I told him that the only thing I want him to do is to escort me downstairs. He said, "okay, I understand completely how you feel", which I snapped, "No you don't".
He then said that I should be getting a letter in about 2 or 3 weeks from HQ.
It's funny how when the office called me at work to re-schedule this exam, they told me that I would have to fill out an sf-86 form again, which I did, and bring it in when I take the polygraph. The polygrapher NEVER asked for it, which means that he intended to fail me anyway.
The actual test did not even last for 20 minutes - the entire session was for about 45 minutes in comparison to the 6 hours when I took the test the last time.
At this point, I feel very disillusioned. How can people who are in authority be so evily inclined to a machine which does not work? Why is it that "so many" people get to pass and not me? My sister did not have these issues when she took her polygraph for the police department at all. I just don't know why it has to be me, especially since I did not do any of the things I was accused of doing - nothing at all!