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Posted by railroaded
- Jul 28, 2005, 07:25 PMQuote from: Sergeant1107 on Jul 28, 2005, 03:14 PM In my experience children of that age do not make up stories about sexual contact.This is precisely what the investigator continually tells everyone I know. I have been reading up on this subject and three things strike me as odd.
1. Common wisdom is that kids don't lie about abuse. Period. UNLESS they have been abused and then they will lie to hide it. I find those two points terribly hard to reconcile.
2. I have read varying studies that show that upwards of 60% of all claims of sexual abuse are untrue, with a good portion of those false claims arising from divorce/custody cases.
3. No authorities will address the scenario where the child is instructed to lie about abuse by the parent, or has actually come to believe that a thought or fantasy is a real event. So the child may not necessarily be lying, but is still not telling a true version of events.
As a little background for my situation:
My wife's friend (!) was visiting one night shortly after we had finished paying off our house. My wife mentioned that our house waid just paid off, and that I had just made a significant (six-figures) profit on a sale I made.
The following week I got the call from the investigators that I needed to come in for an interview. That same "friend" had just come forward with a claim of abuse that allegedly happened 8 months earlier. She had to go that far back to find an instance where I was alone with her children...albeit for only 5 minutes!
To anyone who knows our version of the events, its obvious that she is after money. The investigators don't seem to want to hear my side of the story. I guess I will tell it in court.
Posted by railroaded
- Jul 28, 2005, 03:27 PMI feel sorry for what your family has gone through, especially your daughter. I am confident that in time your wounds will heal if you approach life with a positive attitude and support your daughter through this trying time.
The system is broken in more ways than one. As I said in a previous post, the accuser and the accused often go through hell at the whim of prosecutors, investigators and defense attorneys who make their living playing these games.
On the one hand we have (had) a legal system that justifiably guarantees rights for the accused, and on the other hand you have the child-saving industry that churns up families on both sides and spits them out with little or no regard for the repercussions.
The fact that the young man took and passed a polygraph says nothing about his guilt or innocence, just as the fact that your daughter failed the polygraph says nothing of her veracity.
I have been falsely accused of touching someone innapropriately and I can tell you from personal experience that the entire investigative system is a complete disaster. I was asked in for an interview in April of this year about an incident that alledgedly happened in August of last year and still have not heard a word about the results of the investigation or whether or not charges will be filed.
I have been through three months of sleepless nights, unable to concentrate on my work during the day. My kids have been interviewed by DCFS because the State's Attorney investigator made and "anonymous" call to them (thank God they closed that investigation as unfounded) and all of my friends and neighbors have been interviewed.
Someone even went so far as to post FLIERS on every home on my street and two streets adjacent that stated my name and address and that I was an "alledged child molester".
I now have to move because I cannot allow my children to go to school in the area and be subjected to the cruelty of simple-minded children of simple-minded parents. Although I have the support of my immediate neighbors, I have noticed strange behavior from others further down the street. This week I was watering my lawn and noticed a mother and two daughters coming towards my home on their bikes suddenly turn around and head the other way when they would normally continue around the block...as if I would jump out in the street and molest all three of them as they rode by.
Never mind that I have been in this neighborhood for 6 years with no trouble...all of the sudden I am a serial killer to be avoided like the plague.
In a way you should be glad that you can put the entire ordeal behind you. I wish I had that luxury.
The system is broken in more ways than one. As I said in a previous post, the accuser and the accused often go through hell at the whim of prosecutors, investigators and defense attorneys who make their living playing these games.
On the one hand we have (had) a legal system that justifiably guarantees rights for the accused, and on the other hand you have the child-saving industry that churns up families on both sides and spits them out with little or no regard for the repercussions.
The fact that the young man took and passed a polygraph says nothing about his guilt or innocence, just as the fact that your daughter failed the polygraph says nothing of her veracity.
I have been falsely accused of touching someone innapropriately and I can tell you from personal experience that the entire investigative system is a complete disaster. I was asked in for an interview in April of this year about an incident that alledgedly happened in August of last year and still have not heard a word about the results of the investigation or whether or not charges will be filed.
I have been through three months of sleepless nights, unable to concentrate on my work during the day. My kids have been interviewed by DCFS because the State's Attorney investigator made and "anonymous" call to them (thank God they closed that investigation as unfounded) and all of my friends and neighbors have been interviewed.
Someone even went so far as to post FLIERS on every home on my street and two streets adjacent that stated my name and address and that I was an "alledged child molester".
I now have to move because I cannot allow my children to go to school in the area and be subjected to the cruelty of simple-minded children of simple-minded parents. Although I have the support of my immediate neighbors, I have noticed strange behavior from others further down the street. This week I was watering my lawn and noticed a mother and two daughters coming towards my home on their bikes suddenly turn around and head the other way when they would normally continue around the block...as if I would jump out in the street and molest all three of them as they rode by.
Never mind that I have been in this neighborhood for 6 years with no trouble...all of the sudden I am a serial killer to be avoided like the plague.
In a way you should be glad that you can put the entire ordeal behind you. I wish I had that luxury.
Posted by Sergeant1107
- Jul 28, 2005, 03:14 PMAn1n1m1us,
I'm very sorry to hear about your daughter's ordeal. In my experience children of that age do not make up stories about sexual contact.
You asked if your daughter was too young for an accurate polygraph test. Unfortunately, there is no such thing as an accurate polygraph test. The polygraph is based on junk science and is no more accurate than a coin toss in determining deception. The test measures respiration, heart rate, and galvanic skin responses, and charts them with a polygram. Unless a confession is obtained, the polygram is just a measure of those three physiological responses. No one can look at a polygram and point to the lies that were told by reading the chart.
A polygraph examination is an interrogation, pure and simple. Why the law enforcement officers in your jurisdiction chose to subject an 11-year-old victim to an interrogation, and from your account a hostile one at that, is beyond me. I have some experience in dealing with the victims of sexual assault and I cannot imagine interrogating a minor victim in such a manner.
The bottom line is that the polygraphs the suspect "passed" don't mean he is telling the truth any more than the polygraph your daughter took means that she is lying. The police should be able to collect at least some evidence, even if the incident happened months ago. They can interview people who were there that day to see what they remember, and they can certainly dig around to see if this 16-year-old male has had any other such accusations made against him. I guarantee that if he assaulted your daughter it is not the only such incident for him.
Regardless of whether you are able to get any further assistance from the Sheriff's Office, you need to get counseling for you daughter right away. I don't know what state you're in, but you should contact something like the Department of Children and Families and get a number for a counselor. A general-practice or family counselor is good, but your daughter needs a specialist in this field. I cannot emphasize this enough – she needs competent counseling at once, and will be likely to require that counseling for years.
I'm very sorry to hear about your daughter's ordeal. In my experience children of that age do not make up stories about sexual contact.
You asked if your daughter was too young for an accurate polygraph test. Unfortunately, there is no such thing as an accurate polygraph test. The polygraph is based on junk science and is no more accurate than a coin toss in determining deception. The test measures respiration, heart rate, and galvanic skin responses, and charts them with a polygram. Unless a confession is obtained, the polygram is just a measure of those three physiological responses. No one can look at a polygram and point to the lies that were told by reading the chart.
A polygraph examination is an interrogation, pure and simple. Why the law enforcement officers in your jurisdiction chose to subject an 11-year-old victim to an interrogation, and from your account a hostile one at that, is beyond me. I have some experience in dealing with the victims of sexual assault and I cannot imagine interrogating a minor victim in such a manner.
The bottom line is that the polygraphs the suspect "passed" don't mean he is telling the truth any more than the polygraph your daughter took means that she is lying. The police should be able to collect at least some evidence, even if the incident happened months ago. They can interview people who were there that day to see what they remember, and they can certainly dig around to see if this 16-year-old male has had any other such accusations made against him. I guarantee that if he assaulted your daughter it is not the only such incident for him.
Regardless of whether you are able to get any further assistance from the Sheriff's Office, you need to get counseling for you daughter right away. I don't know what state you're in, but you should contact something like the Department of Children and Families and get a number for a counselor. A general-practice or family counselor is good, but your daughter needs a specialist in this field. I cannot emphasize this enough – she needs competent counseling at once, and will be likely to require that counseling for years.
Posted by an1n1m1us
- Jul 28, 2005, 02:03 PMSeveral months ago, my daughter Jane (11 years old at the time) was attending a church function when she suddenly broke down and started crying - she called home and disclosed to me that Joe, a friend's 16-year old son, had touched her inappropriately during a day-long visit to their home a few months prior. I was shocked - we had known this family for over 10 years - I couldn't fathome that any member of their family could do anything like this.
I immediately called our family counselor and scheduled an emergency session where she disclosed everything that Joe had done to her. The next day, our counselor reported the incident to the sheriff's office. Weeks went by, and we were called into the sheriff's office for an interview. They also interviewed Joe and decided to pursue the case. After weeks of hearing nothing, we received a call from the sheriff's office - they said that Joe had passed two polygraph tests - one private test at his attorney's office, another at the sheriff's office. They asked us if Jane (now 12) would take a polygraph. If she passed, they could pursue action against Joe, otherwise the case would have to be dropped since there was no other evidence.
Relunctant to just drop the issue, I agreed to let them polygraph my daughter - what a mistake that was. The scheduled 45-60 minute test turned into a 3 1/2 hour ordeal. They couldn't find child size cuffs, and had to track those down. She was too short to plce her feet solidly on the ground - they had to find a box for her to rest her feet on. They had to stop the questioning twice as the cuff was cutting off circulation and her arm was going numb.
I later found out that many of the questions were accusatory and confusing - "have you ever lied to fit in" or "have you ever told friends that you were abused so you could get sympathy", "have you ever lied to hurt someone when you were mad at them"
When the test was over, they said she failed. Her answers were "deceptive". Before discussing the results with me, they disclosed them to her - I guess to see what her reaction would be - she was hysterical when I finally got to see her and she was horribly afraid that I didn't believe her.
For a few minutes I really hoped that she had lyed about the incident - at least then she wouldn't have been abused. But I could tell, just like I could tell when she first brought this to my attention, that she wasn't lying. A mother just knows these things.
I'm not sure why I am writing this. Maybe it's to vent - to complain about a system that just doesn't work - unless there's physical evidence.
Needless to say, I'd like to get opinions from others about the the practices by law enforcement of subjecting 12 year olds to intense interrogation. How young is too young for an accurate result? Could the heavy-handed line of questions posed by the polygrapher alter the result? How could Joe beat two polygraphs?
I immediately called our family counselor and scheduled an emergency session where she disclosed everything that Joe had done to her. The next day, our counselor reported the incident to the sheriff's office. Weeks went by, and we were called into the sheriff's office for an interview. They also interviewed Joe and decided to pursue the case. After weeks of hearing nothing, we received a call from the sheriff's office - they said that Joe had passed two polygraph tests - one private test at his attorney's office, another at the sheriff's office. They asked us if Jane (now 12) would take a polygraph. If she passed, they could pursue action against Joe, otherwise the case would have to be dropped since there was no other evidence.
Relunctant to just drop the issue, I agreed to let them polygraph my daughter - what a mistake that was. The scheduled 45-60 minute test turned into a 3 1/2 hour ordeal. They couldn't find child size cuffs, and had to track those down. She was too short to plce her feet solidly on the ground - they had to find a box for her to rest her feet on. They had to stop the questioning twice as the cuff was cutting off circulation and her arm was going numb.
I later found out that many of the questions were accusatory and confusing - "have you ever lied to fit in" or "have you ever told friends that you were abused so you could get sympathy", "have you ever lied to hurt someone when you were mad at them"
When the test was over, they said she failed. Her answers were "deceptive". Before discussing the results with me, they disclosed them to her - I guess to see what her reaction would be - she was hysterical when I finally got to see her and she was horribly afraid that I didn't believe her.
For a few minutes I really hoped that she had lyed about the incident - at least then she wouldn't have been abused. But I could tell, just like I could tell when she first brought this to my attention, that she wasn't lying. A mother just knows these things.
I'm not sure why I am writing this. Maybe it's to vent - to complain about a system that just doesn't work - unless there's physical evidence.
Needless to say, I'd like to get opinions from others about the the practices by law enforcement of subjecting 12 year olds to intense interrogation. How young is too young for an accurate result? Could the heavy-handed line of questions posed by the polygrapher alter the result? How could Joe beat two polygraphs?