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Posted by CobraCommander
- Jul 15, 2005, 08:55 AMLittle update:
I have been taken off the bank crew, but my boss has gotten me on at a school that he recently picked up, so I still at least have employment.
I think my boss saw the writing on the wall. He's been pretty fair at giving me a fair shot regarding this issue. He knows I didn't do it, and he even suspects a former employee that I myself think had a part in it.
My problem with this is knowing that the bank didn't really care who did it, never tried to hear my side of the story, and see if I could vindicate myself with an alibi or witnesses. I'm sure that if they had just asked me to come down and talk, or call me then the whole thing would have worked out right there. These "official" procedures that businesses take in these circumstances aren't always the best means to finding a solution. To them a poly is good a reason as any to find a person's guilt, even though they only asked me to take one, based soley on one weak testimony from a guard that couldn't positively ID anyone, AND the fact that their property loss was insured anyway.
The only thing that salvaged my job and a potential lawsuit was my boss' fair play in this. If my boss hadn't been more understanding, then this thing could have gotten out of hand. I at least know now how to handle these polygraphs in the future, even though this kind of thing shouldn't happen to anyone. Lie detectors are unlawful, unreasonable, and should be removed totally from pre-screenings and from being used to contest a person's honesty.
I have been taken off the bank crew, but my boss has gotten me on at a school that he recently picked up, so I still at least have employment.
I think my boss saw the writing on the wall. He's been pretty fair at giving me a fair shot regarding this issue. He knows I didn't do it, and he even suspects a former employee that I myself think had a part in it.
My problem with this is knowing that the bank didn't really care who did it, never tried to hear my side of the story, and see if I could vindicate myself with an alibi or witnesses. I'm sure that if they had just asked me to come down and talk, or call me then the whole thing would have worked out right there. These "official" procedures that businesses take in these circumstances aren't always the best means to finding a solution. To them a poly is good a reason as any to find a person's guilt, even though they only asked me to take one, based soley on one weak testimony from a guard that couldn't positively ID anyone, AND the fact that their property loss was insured anyway.
The only thing that salvaged my job and a potential lawsuit was my boss' fair play in this. If my boss hadn't been more understanding, then this thing could have gotten out of hand. I at least know now how to handle these polygraphs in the future, even though this kind of thing shouldn't happen to anyone. Lie detectors are unlawful, unreasonable, and should be removed totally from pre-screenings and from being used to contest a person's honesty.
Posted by Sergeant1107
- Jul 11, 2005, 12:55 PMQuote from: Jeffery on Jul 10, 2005, 10:26 AMThe bank is trying to get you into a polygraph to confess. If you confess during a polygraph, they will prosecute.I agree. If the bank told you they'd hired a retired FBI interrogator who had years of experience questioning criminals and suspects, and that he or she would be having a go at you for a few hours to see if your story held up, you would be more likely to see the ploy for what it is.
Even though I'm no fan of most attorneys, they are useful in certain situations. If you are accused or suspected of a crime you need to retain an attorney well-versed in criminal law. If the only issue is the EPPA and having to take a polygraph, you should get an attorney well-versed in labor law.
Posted by Jeffery
- Jul 10, 2005, 10:26 AMQuote from: CobraCommander on Jul 10, 2005, 04:53 AMI know that even if I took the poly, the bank could still retain the right to suspect me and ask my boss to make sure I don't clean that buildingBingo.
Quoteif I take the test and fail I lose my job, and if I take the test and pass, the bank could still suspect me -- and I'll lose my job. I'm screwed either way as far I'm concerned.The bank is trying to get you into a polygraph to confess. If you confess during a polygraph, they will prosecute. Don't believe them when they say the won't. And don't believe the hype of "the polygraph will clear you." Bullshit. If they had any evidence on you you'd already be in jail. You don't need clearing. But the situation with your job is a bit precarious. You may want to contact a lawyer who knows about EPPA.
Posted by CobraCommander
- Jul 10, 2005, 04:53 AMThanks for the support and info, guys. Without sites like this, I might not have been informed enough to know that such laws as the EPPA even existed.
The legalities of this confuse me a bit. I know I can't legally be fired for refusing for taking a poly, but then again I work for an employer that contracts with the bank, so the bank in reality isn't my employer, only the company that does the business with my boss, who owns the cleaning co.
I don't want to sue anyone, I just want to keep my job, but I know that even if I took the poly, the bank could still retain the right to suspect me and ask my boss to make sure I don't clean that building, which is paramount to discipline, same as being fired more or less. So if I refuse, I lose my job, if I take the test and fail I lose my job, and if I take the test and pass, the bank could still suspect me -- and I'll lose my job. I'm screwed either way as far I'm concerned.
What I don't get is why companies hold up procedures that eliminate workers like me from being heard. If they heard my story and realized that I have an alibi and witnesses to back it up, everything would be cleared. And the bank knows it has no case against me; a security guard's shady ID of someone that looks like me wouldn't hold up one second in court, and since they aren't going to prosecute anyway, I don't understand why they wouldn't want to hear my story so they could have confidence in me, which would allow me to keep working there without them worrying.
My boss and I have been in talks for me to work with him at one of his other places. If so, then my employment will at least be salvaged. If not, well, I might think about legal action, if there's any to be had. But I don't want that. I just want to have a job.
Anyway, you guys have a great site here and it is very educating (and frightening) to know what polys can do to someone, regardless of the results.
The legalities of this confuse me a bit. I know I can't legally be fired for refusing for taking a poly, but then again I work for an employer that contracts with the bank, so the bank in reality isn't my employer, only the company that does the business with my boss, who owns the cleaning co.
I don't want to sue anyone, I just want to keep my job, but I know that even if I took the poly, the bank could still retain the right to suspect me and ask my boss to make sure I don't clean that building, which is paramount to discipline, same as being fired more or less. So if I refuse, I lose my job, if I take the test and fail I lose my job, and if I take the test and pass, the bank could still suspect me -- and I'll lose my job. I'm screwed either way as far I'm concerned.
What I don't get is why companies hold up procedures that eliminate workers like me from being heard. If they heard my story and realized that I have an alibi and witnesses to back it up, everything would be cleared. And the bank knows it has no case against me; a security guard's shady ID of someone that looks like me wouldn't hold up one second in court, and since they aren't going to prosecute anyway, I don't understand why they wouldn't want to hear my story so they could have confidence in me, which would allow me to keep working there without them worrying.
My boss and I have been in talks for me to work with him at one of his other places. If so, then my employment will at least be salvaged. If not, well, I might think about legal action, if there's any to be had. But I don't want that. I just want to have a job.
Anyway, you guys have a great site here and it is very educating (and frightening) to know what polys can do to someone, regardless of the results.
Posted by Sergeant1107
- Jul 09, 2005, 04:05 PMDrew, believe me when I say I understand that completely. I was looking to see what advice a pro-polygraph person would give, in that I was curious if even they would admit there are "bad" polygraphers out there along with the "good", and if so how would one differentiate between the two?
To me, it's like the points you make when teaching a class on motor vehicle stops. What kind of car does a cop-killer drive? What time of day or night are they on the road? If you don't have a 100% accurate answer then it would be wise to approach all cars at all times as if they might contain someone who would hurt a cop. What are the descriptors to look for in a "good" polygrapher as opposed to a "bad" one? If there isn't a 100% accurate answer, and I don't see how there could be given the numerous variables and wholly subjective nature of the conclusions, then wouldn't it be wise to avoid them altogether?
To me, it's like the points you make when teaching a class on motor vehicle stops. What kind of car does a cop-killer drive? What time of day or night are they on the road? If you don't have a 100% accurate answer then it would be wise to approach all cars at all times as if they might contain someone who would hurt a cop. What are the descriptors to look for in a "good" polygrapher as opposed to a "bad" one? If there isn't a 100% accurate answer, and I don't see how there could be given the numerous variables and wholly subjective nature of the conclusions, then wouldn't it be wise to avoid them altogether?
Posted by Drew Richardson
- Jul 09, 2005, 03:22 PMSergeant1107,
I won't be here to see your reply but I hope that you understand that while there may well be differences between what you describe as "a professional, reputable polygrapher" and one who is "not technically proficient, experienced, ethical, or impartial," the results of their polygraph exams may well be the same. The reason for this is that the technique in many of its applications and formats doesn't work. What we have here is not malpractice for the most part but quackery. Best and have a pleasant week...
I won't be here to see your reply but I hope that you understand that while there may well be differences between what you describe as "a professional, reputable polygrapher" and one who is "not technically proficient, experienced, ethical, or impartial," the results of their polygraph exams may well be the same. The reason for this is that the technique in many of its applications and formats doesn't work. What we have here is not malpractice for the most part but quackery. Best and have a pleasant week...
Posted by Sergeant1107
- Jul 09, 2005, 03:14 PMQuote from: nonombre on Jul 09, 2005, 12:15 PM...I think this guy is telling the truth. Accordingly, I believe he'd pass the polygraph exam...Nonombre,
Your faith in the polygraph is clear from your prior posts. Are you able to say, without qualification, that an innocent person accused of a crime should eagerly agree to a polygraph because it will help them prove they are telling the truth? I'm not trying to say that such was your advice in this thread, I'm just asking for your opinion.
Or, after reading my own account as well as the many others like mine would you feel it would be more accurate to caution the subject about making certain they go to a professional, reputable polygrapher? Can you agree that the subject risks significant loss if they go to a polygraph examiner who is not technically proficient, experienced, ethical, or impartial?
Posted by tasercop
- Jul 09, 2005, 02:24 PMAs a polygraph examiner I disagree, of course, with most of the advice on this board. However, your employer asking you to take a polygraph is probably in violation of the EPPA. Before the employer can ask you, there must be a monitary loss to the company. The loss is to the bank, not to your employer, who is a subcontractor. If this is in fact the case, your employer violated EPPA. Also, you cannot be fired for refusing to take a polygraph. If they do, you will own them in court. Even if there is a monitary loss to your employer, there must be reasonable suspicion (actually interpreted by the courts now as probable cause) that you committed the theft. Even then, if you refuse, your employer cannot take any discipline action against you. As a police examiner I get asked by employers all the time to give their employees polygraphs. I explain the EPPA to them and refer them to an attorney for advice. Most are ignorant, for some reason, about EPPA.
Good luck. I agree too that you sound innocent.
Good luck. I agree too that you sound innocent.
Posted by Jeffery
- Jul 09, 2005, 02:02 PMQuote from: nonombre on Jul 09, 2005, 12:15 PMHey,
For whatever its worth, I have heard alot of stories over the the years that I have been conducting criminal investigations, and I think this guy is telling the truth.
Accordingly, I believe he'd pass the polygraph exam, but of course the first thing you all are gonna tell him is to not take the test. But that's okay, just thought I would chime in.
Nonombre
If he's innocent what does he have to gain by passing it? If he passes, the bank may just say "well, he did it anyway; everybody knows polygraphs are unreliable."
Just look at the story of the guy who took a polygraph that "proved him innocent" and the military rejected it and still brought him up on charges. Polygraphs "only work" if they prove you guilty. THey don't prove your innocence.
Posted by Sergeant1107
- Jul 09, 2005, 12:52 PMCobraCommander,
Sorry to hear about your difficulties. You should contact an attorney if you are about to lose your job for no other reason than you refuse to take a polygraph.
Since I am one of the many people who have told the truth on a polygraph and been told afterwards that I was clearly lying, I understand your decision to refuse the polygraph. Just because you are innocent and plan on telling the truth is no guarantee you'll "pass" your polygraph.
If your bank wanted you to go see Madame Souflaka the Fortune Teller and have her use her tarot cards to see if you were telling the truth, most reasonable people would find that ridiculous. It's unfortunate that polygraph exams have an aura of validity around them – they are in effect no more accurate than the fortune teller would be.
Sorry to hear about your difficulties. You should contact an attorney if you are about to lose your job for no other reason than you refuse to take a polygraph.
Since I am one of the many people who have told the truth on a polygraph and been told afterwards that I was clearly lying, I understand your decision to refuse the polygraph. Just because you are innocent and plan on telling the truth is no guarantee you'll "pass" your polygraph.
If your bank wanted you to go see Madame Souflaka the Fortune Teller and have her use her tarot cards to see if you were telling the truth, most reasonable people would find that ridiculous. It's unfortunate that polygraph exams have an aura of validity around them – they are in effect no more accurate than the fortune teller would be.
Posted by nonombre
- Jul 09, 2005, 12:15 PMHey,
For whatever its worth, I have heard alot of stories over the the years that I have been conducting criminal investigations, and I think this guy is telling the truth.
Accordingly, I believe he'd pass the polygraph exam, but of course the first thing you all are gonna tell him is to not take the test. But that's okay, just thought I would chime in.
Nonombre
For whatever its worth, I have heard alot of stories over the the years that I have been conducting criminal investigations, and I think this guy is telling the truth.
Accordingly, I believe he'd pass the polygraph exam, but of course the first thing you all are gonna tell him is to not take the test. But that's okay, just thought I would chime in.
Nonombre
Posted by CobraCommander
- Jul 09, 2005, 08:40 AMHey guys,
First I want to thank all of you for creating such an informative site and forum. I hope polygraphs will one day be eradicated, as everything I have learned about them has told me that this is junk science, and no one should put their own integrity on the line just to be "cleared" by some wack-job examiner.
My story is this: I am currently working for a domestic cleaning company, doing janitorial work for one of our contracts, which is a bank -- the name I won't give.
Last weekend, while I was off work, the bank was broken into and some money and computers were stolen from one of the floors -- that I clean. The breakin was made up to look like the janitors did it; carts left out, janitor closets opened and keys used. The security guard who came in later said he saw someone on the fourth floor who looked like me, even though the person was in one of the restrooms and the guard never was able to clearly identify whether or not it was me, he said the person just kinda looked me -- sorta. No positive ID.
Well, I got a call the following Monday from my boss telling me what had happened and that the bank was asking for me to take a polygraph to clear my story, even though no police nor anyone from the bank ever called or came by my house to see what my side of the story was.
I've always been critical of technology like polygraphs being used to vindicate or even indicte human truth. But after talking it over with friends and family, as well as searching sites like this one for info, I told them I refused to take one; my alibi was solid and I had two witnesses who could verify that I was where I was when the breakin happened, which was at home watching tv!
Now, the evidence against me is weak, the bank has said that they won't press charges either way, and my alibi is solid, yet the bank has told my boss that unless I take it, I will have to be let go. I have decided to stand my ground and not take one, come what may.
So I'll now probably have to quit and look for work elsewhere. I have another PT job on the side that will at least put some money in my pocket for the time being, but it looks like I'm going to lose my job, not only because I've refused to take a polygraph, but because of the shady testimony of a guard who, from what I've been told, may even lose his job over this because the whole thing would have been solved if the guard had only checked to make sure who that person was in the bathroom -- which of course he would have seen that it wasn't me!
I never in a million years thought this kind of thing would happen to me. I have no criminal record, I obey the laws, pay my taxes, and get up and go to work everyday, just like every other hard working American. But I'm now going to lose my job because of stupid security procedures and a group of bankers that feel so distrusting of everyone that they'd rather just hang an innocent man rather than try and search through the evidence to find the guilty party, or even just let it go since they said they aren't going to prosecute anyway.
All of this makes no sense to me, that I would lose my job, not because I was found guilty or clearly identified as the thief, but because I would make the decision to stand by my principles and not take a polygraph!
I've looked up the laws concerning my rights under the EPPA, but I'd like any advice that you guys might have, and any action that I could or should take. This whole thing has left me stressed out, angry as can be, and more or less exhausted by the system procedures that guarantee that honest, hard working people like myself will be constantly shut out of the loop and turned into scapegoats.
First I want to thank all of you for creating such an informative site and forum. I hope polygraphs will one day be eradicated, as everything I have learned about them has told me that this is junk science, and no one should put their own integrity on the line just to be "cleared" by some wack-job examiner.
My story is this: I am currently working for a domestic cleaning company, doing janitorial work for one of our contracts, which is a bank -- the name I won't give.
Last weekend, while I was off work, the bank was broken into and some money and computers were stolen from one of the floors -- that I clean. The breakin was made up to look like the janitors did it; carts left out, janitor closets opened and keys used. The security guard who came in later said he saw someone on the fourth floor who looked like me, even though the person was in one of the restrooms and the guard never was able to clearly identify whether or not it was me, he said the person just kinda looked me -- sorta. No positive ID.
Well, I got a call the following Monday from my boss telling me what had happened and that the bank was asking for me to take a polygraph to clear my story, even though no police nor anyone from the bank ever called or came by my house to see what my side of the story was.
I've always been critical of technology like polygraphs being used to vindicate or even indicte human truth. But after talking it over with friends and family, as well as searching sites like this one for info, I told them I refused to take one; my alibi was solid and I had two witnesses who could verify that I was where I was when the breakin happened, which was at home watching tv!
Now, the evidence against me is weak, the bank has said that they won't press charges either way, and my alibi is solid, yet the bank has told my boss that unless I take it, I will have to be let go. I have decided to stand my ground and not take one, come what may.
So I'll now probably have to quit and look for work elsewhere. I have another PT job on the side that will at least put some money in my pocket for the time being, but it looks like I'm going to lose my job, not only because I've refused to take a polygraph, but because of the shady testimony of a guard who, from what I've been told, may even lose his job over this because the whole thing would have been solved if the guard had only checked to make sure who that person was in the bathroom -- which of course he would have seen that it wasn't me!
I never in a million years thought this kind of thing would happen to me. I have no criminal record, I obey the laws, pay my taxes, and get up and go to work everyday, just like every other hard working American. But I'm now going to lose my job because of stupid security procedures and a group of bankers that feel so distrusting of everyone that they'd rather just hang an innocent man rather than try and search through the evidence to find the guilty party, or even just let it go since they said they aren't going to prosecute anyway.
All of this makes no sense to me, that I would lose my job, not because I was found guilty or clearly identified as the thief, but because I would make the decision to stand by my principles and not take a polygraph!
I've looked up the laws concerning my rights under the EPPA, but I'd like any advice that you guys might have, and any action that I could or should take. This whole thing has left me stressed out, angry as can be, and more or less exhausted by the system procedures that guarantee that honest, hard working people like myself will be constantly shut out of the loop and turned into scapegoats.