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Posted by polyscam
- Oct 02, 2005, 12:16 AMEastwood wrote:
Please elaborate the handles of those you feel could not "pass" a polygraph on their own without use of countermeasures. Perhaps people would not resort to countermeasures if agencies didn't regularly resort to polygraph testing as a means of attempted truth verification. The polygraph community, in my view, is not up in arms with regard to countermeasures because their use thwarts the truth but because they expose the numerous flaws which plague polygraph testing. Flaws which are akin to the bleeding holes of a stuck pig.
QuoteI'll agree with you there - it's unfortunate that they listen to some here who could never pass one on their own, and had to resort to using this crap
Please elaborate the handles of those you feel could not "pass" a polygraph on their own without use of countermeasures. Perhaps people would not resort to countermeasures if agencies didn't regularly resort to polygraph testing as a means of attempted truth verification. The polygraph community, in my view, is not up in arms with regard to countermeasures because their use thwarts the truth but because they expose the numerous flaws which plague polygraph testing. Flaws which are akin to the bleeding holes of a stuck pig.
Posted by Eastwood
- Oct 01, 2005, 09:14 PMI'll agree with you there - it's unfortunate that they listen to some here who could never pass one on their own, and had to resort to using this crap
Posted by Johnn
- Sep 26, 2005, 03:35 AMQuote from: Eastwood on Sep 24, 2005, 01:27 AMNow you can confess - what were you hiding? Truthful people NEVER use countermeasures.
Please allow me to finish your statement. What you mean is,
"Initially, truthful people NEVER use countermeasures... however, when they find out that they've been labeled deceptive for being truthful, then they are obligated to use countermeasures in case of course, they want to continue to pursue their career or in case they want to clear their names".
Yes, Eastwood, I agree with you 100%, because I was truthful and I never even thought about using countermeasures. If I could rewind back time I'd do it without an ounce of regret. I'd think of it as studying for the LSAT - like any other exam.
Posted by Jeffery
- Sep 24, 2005, 11:00 AMQuote from: Eastwood on Sep 24, 2005, 01:27 AMNow you can confess - what were you hiding? Truthful people NEVER use countermeasures.
And truthful people will fail if the idiot polygrpaher chooses "probable lie control questions" that the truthful person is actually... truthful on.
Posted by Eastwood
- Sep 24, 2005, 01:27 AMNow you can confess - what were you hiding? Truthful people NEVER use countermeasures.
Posted by audirob19
- Sep 02, 2005, 09:44 AMok this is where i get confused. if the only questions u should worry to really have to act on our the control questions. why not just do it for everything question except the relevant questions?
Posted by Bill Crider
- Jul 22, 2005, 12:16 AMIf the examiner doesn't frame the question properly?
I'm sorry, but that is a bit nonsensical on the question of "have you ever sold illegal drugs?" My particpation with drugs, either as a seller or consumer is 0, so I don't think it was due to ambiguity or failure to understand the parameters of the question.
I'm sorry, but that is a bit nonsensical on the question of "have you ever sold illegal drugs?" My particpation with drugs, either as a seller or consumer is 0, so I don't think it was due to ambiguity or failure to understand the parameters of the question.
Posted by Eastwood
- Jul 21, 2005, 10:49 PMWhich agency tested you?
Posted by Jeffery
- Jun 28, 2005, 10:12 AMQuote from: darkcobra2005 on Jun 28, 2005, 03:23 AMJeffery,
I did not mean to say that one would be called deceptive, I said the charts would be difficult to interpret. The probable outcome would be an inconclusive result and require changing the format.
That is not to say they would be called untruthful. Before others jump in, I do not speak for Federal Agencies, only for myself and they manner in which I do testing.
Nbody gets hired on an Inconclusive. And after experieincing the first round (and totally bogus accusations stemming from such) and susbsequent attempt at a polygraph is a complete joke. Regardless of format.
Posted by polyscam
- Jun 28, 2005, 07:24 AMDarkcobra2005,
I like many others have reported approached my first polygraph with all intentions of being completely truthful and did just that. Prior to my exam, like other, I had very little knowledge in regard to polygraph testing, method and procedure. I had no idea that lying was expected in relation to certain questions (controls). So I searched my past and divulged all that was asked of me until with clear concience (spell check anyone) I could honestly answer all questions. My question to you is: during the intest how many relevant, control and sacrifices do you ask? How many questions do you ask per chart? I am wondering what percentage of the test one should expect to be forthright and honest. I realize that due to policy restrictions you may not be able to answer. If you are able to reply but for any reason you are not comfortable doing so on the public forum, intant message me or send and e-mail.
I like many others have reported approached my first polygraph with all intentions of being completely truthful and did just that. Prior to my exam, like other, I had very little knowledge in regard to polygraph testing, method and procedure. I had no idea that lying was expected in relation to certain questions (controls). So I searched my past and divulged all that was asked of me until with clear concience (spell check anyone) I could honestly answer all questions. My question to you is: during the intest how many relevant, control and sacrifices do you ask? How many questions do you ask per chart? I am wondering what percentage of the test one should expect to be forthright and honest. I realize that due to policy restrictions you may not be able to answer. If you are able to reply but for any reason you are not comfortable doing so on the public forum, intant message me or send and e-mail.
Posted by Jeffery
- Jun 28, 2005, 12:39 AMQuote from: darkcobra2005 on Jun 27, 2005, 11:21 PMThe examiner should be aware that you are being 100% truthful and then change the format used or there will be a problem in analyzing the charts and making a correct decision.
That problem leading to crushed dreams of honorable service to ones government and increased skepticism and cynicism of a system that would label a 100% honest person deceptive on account of a flawed test. But one can still honorablly provide service to ones Country by bringing to light some of the darker tools used by these agencies.
Funny how the rats scurry about when light is shined on them. Just take a look at polygraphplace.com...
Posted by polyscam
- Jun 27, 2005, 02:36 AMDarkcobra,
Thanks again for more insight. You are the first to advise against total honesty during a poly exam. Other polygraphers have stated that the only way to successfully complete a poly is to be 100% truthful. That would appear to be horrible advice from what you have stated. The question (which may have been asked) is: wouldn't intential deceit regarding controls be a kind of countermeasure? If the instrument accurately records physiological activity strongly associated with dishonesty would this intentional deceit not be a purposeful augmentation to the response? The appearance in reminiscent of the 'ole apples (controls) to oranges (relevants) comparison.
Sounds like this may be a good approach for those with knowledge of polygraphy to complete a polygraph exam with a positive outcome.
Thanks again for more insight. You are the first to advise against total honesty during a poly exam. Other polygraphers have stated that the only way to successfully complete a poly is to be 100% truthful. That would appear to be horrible advice from what you have stated. The question (which may have been asked) is: wouldn't intential deceit regarding controls be a kind of countermeasure? If the instrument accurately records physiological activity strongly associated with dishonesty would this intentional deceit not be a purposeful augmentation to the response? The appearance in reminiscent of the 'ole apples (controls) to oranges (relevants) comparison.
Sounds like this may be a good approach for those with knowledge of polygraphy to complete a polygraph exam with a positive outcome.
Posted by polyfool
- Jun 27, 2005, 01:14 AMQuote from: darkcobra2005 on Jun 26, 2005, 01:11 PMI was a polygraph examiner when I took my last polygraph and I did not use countermeasures. I did not tell the truth to the control questions purposly. I do understand polygraph and was truthful to the relevant questions, some were a bit embarasing, but I felt the truth was the way to go on relevants. I did qualify based on my background and all areas the agency was concerned about.
Again my advice is to be honest with the agency hiring you and make sure you meet their qualifications, cooperate with the examiner on control questions and don't be 100% honest on them. The examiner will lead you into a no answer on them and just cooperate. This worked for me and I don't feel I was in any manner doing anything improper, I was cooperating and completing the task in the manner the examiner required.
Would I do it again? Yes and in the same manner as the last time. My very first polygraph was before I became an examiner and the experience was very anxiety producing, The examiner used a relevant irrelevant question technique with me, I did pass. Again I was honest and did meet all the requriements of the agency I was applying to.
Dark Cobra:
Would it not affect the test to know the difference between relevants and controls? For example, when I took my polygraph, I didn't know there was a difference in any of the questions except the irrelevants, which were obvious. Had I known the examiner didn't care about the controls I would have been even less worried about them than I was. I was very concerned about the controls in the pre-test until I answered with complete honesty. It would seem like knowing there is a difference in the questions would adversely affect the test or at least make the examinee anxious when he hears the different types of questions. For example, an espionage question is an obvious important question even to someone who knows very little about the polygraph, such as I did. However, when I was asked that question during my exam, I do remember thinking how horrible it would be to be accused of such a thing.
Posted by polyfool
- Jun 27, 2005, 12:56 AMQuote from: darkcobra2005 on Dec 31, 1969, 07:00 PMBill,
Yes, if in the pretest interview the examiner does not construct the setting for the examination and the questions for the examination, reactions can occur that are intrepreted as deception. This is not the examinees fault, it is the examiner. We try to explain exactly what we mean in each question, sometimes the individual being tested goes outside our meaning because he/she is human and thinks of "outside issues" other than what we are asking and we do get a reaction.
Dark Cobra:
Not all examiners elaborate on what they mean when it comes to controls, leaving room for interpretation by the examinee. Even if an examinee questions the examiner about the questions, he may not offer clear explanations. Wouldn't this be a problem during a polygraph screening, since people interpret things differently?
Posted by Jeffery
- Jun 26, 2005, 03:52 PMQuote from: darkcobra2005 on Jun 26, 2005, 01:11 PMI was a polygraph examiner when I took my last polygraph and I did not use countermeasures. I did not tell the truth to the control questions purposly. I do understand polygraph and was truthful to the relevant questionsThanks for your honesty here.
So what you are saying is, as a polygraph examiner, you did not use countermeasures, but were intentionally dishonest (on controls) and still passed?
So you lied on a polygraph but still passed?
As someome like myself (who, believe it if you will, is TOTALLY honest) can you now see our disgust with the overall polygraph process?
Isn't your being intentionally dishonest (on controls) in itself a form of countermeasure?
Those of us whose examiners sucked at leading them to lieing on controls in my opinion have a right to be a bit pissed off. But we're just additional numbers in the system.