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A forum for free and open discussion of polygraph-related topics
Posted by polyfool
- Jul 04, 2005, 01:21 AMSergeant:
I agree--it is especially frustrating to see examiners give applicants false senses of security by advising them to simply tell the truth during their exams. Being honest is not enough to to get one through a polygraph exam. That's obvious by the number of posts on this site. Why would so many people devote so much time and energy to this cause if they didn't feel passionate about polygraphy's injustices?
I agree--it is especially frustrating to see examiners give applicants false senses of security by advising them to simply tell the truth during their exams. Being honest is not enough to to get one through a polygraph exam. That's obvious by the number of posts on this site. Why would so many people devote so much time and energy to this cause if they didn't feel passionate about polygraphy's injustices?
Posted by Sergeant1107
- Jul 03, 2005, 12:30 PMI understand that, before an examination begins, the polygraph examiner will counsel the subject to tell the truth. That is not my concern.
What continues to amaze me is that when a person on this board writes something like this: "I told the complete truth. I didn't lie about a single thing. I didn't hold back or conceal anything, but I still failed my polygraph. However, I may be able to get a re-test. What do I do now?" When that happens, at least one polygraph examiner will counsel the writer to tell the truth and everything will be fine. Many times, they will warn that using countermeasures only ensures they will fail.
I believe one of the definitions of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. I am one of the many people who was completely honest during my polygraphs and still failed three out of four. It upsets me when I read advice that tells people like me to just tell the truth and everything will be fine. Perhaps polygraph examiners simply don't believe that anyone who was labeled "deceptive" was actually telling the truth – they MUST have been lying about some little thing, at least, or they would have passed. So they advise people to just tell the truth THIS TIME and everything will work out fine. I suppose that when I write that I did tell the truth and didn't withhold anything at all, yet I still failed, they must just shake their heads and think: "You can't fool me. If you'd told the truth, you would have passed."
I can believe that's what happens. I just have a hard time accepting it.
What continues to amaze me is that when a person on this board writes something like this: "I told the complete truth. I didn't lie about a single thing. I didn't hold back or conceal anything, but I still failed my polygraph. However, I may be able to get a re-test. What do I do now?" When that happens, at least one polygraph examiner will counsel the writer to tell the truth and everything will be fine. Many times, they will warn that using countermeasures only ensures they will fail.
I believe one of the definitions of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. I am one of the many people who was completely honest during my polygraphs and still failed three out of four. It upsets me when I read advice that tells people like me to just tell the truth and everything will be fine. Perhaps polygraph examiners simply don't believe that anyone who was labeled "deceptive" was actually telling the truth – they MUST have been lying about some little thing, at least, or they would have passed. So they advise people to just tell the truth THIS TIME and everything will work out fine. I suppose that when I write that I did tell the truth and didn't withhold anything at all, yet I still failed, they must just shake their heads and think: "You can't fool me. If you'd told the truth, you would have passed."
I can believe that's what happens. I just have a hard time accepting it.
Posted by polyfool
- Jul 02, 2005, 09:48 PMQuote from: Sergeant1107 on Jun 30, 2005, 05:59 PMI believe Polyfool stated that he told the truth about everything and failed. The advice he received from Checking, presumably intended as advice on how to pass the retest, was to tell the truth. Checking also warned that using countermeasures would not get him the job he wanted. Does this seem like a circular argument to anyone besides me?
Polyfool tells the truth and fails, which means he won't get the job he wants. The advice from Checking (who sure sounds like a polygraph examiner) is to tell the truth, even though doing so already caused Polyfool to fail. Checking also warned him not to use countermeasures, since that would prevent him getting the job. That seems to leave Polyfool with two options, neither of which results in him getting the job he wants. Unless you count the unnamed third option, which is to take the test again without countermeasures and hope that the coin lands on tails instead of heads this time.
Even after all the posts I've read here and at PolygraphPlace.com I'm still amazed by the chutzpah of polygraph examiners. No matter how many people come forward to say that they told the entire truth and still failed, the advice the polygraphers give is always the same: "Just tell the truth and you'll be fine."
Sergeant:
Just to clarify, Checking (a poly examiner) wasn't giving me advice on how to pass a retest, it was some other user. I had already failed my retest at the time of my post.
Poly examiners tell examinees to be truthful not only when giving advice on this board, but also during the pre-interview phase. Some can be quite credible--convincing the examinee that they are seeking the truth and they do want it, but only in regards to what they care about (the relevants.) The problem with that is examinees with little or no knowledge about how the test works may spill their guts about everything. To them ALL the questions are important. I believed the test was about character and integrity and I was unwilling to lie about anything even if it made me look bad. Basically, you have to be willing to be brutally honest--something most people would never do, especially when they're trying to make themselves look good for a job. As a matter of fact, as I was making admissions regarding controls I thought, oh well, I'm not getting this job now, but in actuality,the examiner didn't care about what I divulged.
When examiners advise examinees to tell the truth they are hoping to catch those with something to hide, assume that no one will be truthful about everything and if they think they are, believe their skill in polygraphy will be able to determine it.
Perhaps a poly examiner would like to comment?
Posted by G Scalabr
- Jul 01, 2005, 03:46 AMQuoteI'm still amazed by the chutzpah of polygraph examiners. No matter how many people come forward to say that they told the entire truth and still failed, the advice the polygraphers give is always the same: "Just tell the truth and you'll be fine."
If they gave any other advice, it would have to involve them admitting that what they do it a fraud. It's not likely to happen.
Posted by Sergeant1107
- Jun 30, 2005, 05:59 PMI believe Polyfool stated that he told the truth about everything and failed. The advice he received from Checking, presumably intended as advice on how to pass the retest, was to tell the truth. Checking also warned that using countermeasures would not get him the job he wanted. Does this seem like a circular argument to anyone besides me?
Polyfool tells the truth and fails, which means he won't get the job he wants. The advice from Checking (who sure sounds like a polygraph examiner) is to tell the truth, even though doing so already caused Polyfool to fail. Checking also warned him not to use countermeasures, since that would prevent him getting the job. That seems to leave Polyfool with two options, neither of which results in him getting the job he wants. Unless you count the unnamed third option, which is to take the test again without countermeasures and hope that the coin lands on tails instead of heads this time.
Even after all the posts I've read here and at PolygraphPlace.com I'm still amazed by the chutzpah of polygraph examiners. No matter how many people come forward to say that they told the entire truth and still failed, the advice the polygraphers give is always the same: "Just tell the truth and you'll be fine."
Polyfool tells the truth and fails, which means he won't get the job he wants. The advice from Checking (who sure sounds like a polygraph examiner) is to tell the truth, even though doing so already caused Polyfool to fail. Checking also warned him not to use countermeasures, since that would prevent him getting the job. That seems to leave Polyfool with two options, neither of which results in him getting the job he wants. Unless you count the unnamed third option, which is to take the test again without countermeasures and hope that the coin lands on tails instead of heads this time.
Even after all the posts I've read here and at PolygraphPlace.com I'm still amazed by the chutzpah of polygraph examiners. No matter how many people come forward to say that they told the entire truth and still failed, the advice the polygraphers give is always the same: "Just tell the truth and you'll be fine."
Posted by nunyun
- Apr 03, 2005, 05:50 PMQuote from: checking on Mar 31, 2005, 09:24 PMSimply tell the truth and let the cards fall where they may. Using counter measures will ensure you will not get the job. If you are getting a retest it indicates that the first test was not totally acceptable to the agency. If you listen to people that have also failed the polygraph you will not get information that will get the job for you. If they could pass the examination, why would they still be complaining about being found untruthful on their examinations? Just be honest and be sure and tell the ones testing you that you have read about counter measures and do not intend to use them, you want to pass your polygraph with honesty. Good Luck
You are not exactly correct. some on this site have taken that path and were still accused of using countermeasures even after being truhful.
Many on this site are not whining, some are trying to help others know the truth that the test is bullshit. Used CM's past with no problem end of story.
Nice try with the smoke screen though
Posted by George W. Maschke
- Apr 01, 2005, 06:16 AMQuote from: polyfool on Mar 31, 2005, 11:43 PMFBI_SA_Appl:
Be careful--"Checking" is almost certainly a polygraph examiner.
Your intuition seems to be correct. "Checking" is also a fabricator. See:
https://antipolygraph.org/forum/index.php?topic=2290.msg16253#msg16253
Posted by polyfool
- Mar 31, 2005, 11:43 PMFBI_SA_Appl:
Be careful--"Checking" is almost certainly a polygraph examiner.
Be careful--"Checking" is almost certainly a polygraph examiner.
Posted by polyfool
- Mar 31, 2005, 11:00 PMFBI-SA-appl:
You are correct. The FBI does offer a retest in certain cases. However, I don't know how those decisions are made. One FBI employee told me that receiving a second test following an unexplained failure was pretty standard if the applicant requests it. On the other hand, an FBI agent told me not to count on getting a re-test because only three percent of those who fail the test the first time go on to pass the second test. Seems to be a pre-determined number. Allowing more to pass would certainly bring unwanted scrutiny to the polygraph screening process.
I received a second test, but was failed again, anyway. What you have to do to appeal the results of your test is write a letter saying that you disagree with the results and that you would like a re-test to clear your name. The letter should be addressed and sent to the name on the letter you receive stating that your conditional employment offer has been rescinded based on the results of your polygraph, which were "not within acceptable parameters." If your letter says anything else like you withheld information, then you would not qualify for a re-test.
It takes about three months to be re-tested, but before that happens an agent will interview you. Be prepared for an in-depth discussion on your experience with drugs--whether you've used them before or just been around them--your ENTIRE DETAILED experience. The interview is stressful--you will be asked to remember the impossible--it's really quite ridiculous. The agency will use that information to decide whether to grant you a retest. About a month after that interview, you would be scheduled for a poly. I can tell you most assuredly that you are stuck between a rock and a hard place. With only a three percent chance of passing, the odds are stacked against you. If you do pass the second time, the examiner will accuse you of using countermeasures to pass the test--be prepared for this. I was actually directed to this site by a paranoid poly examiner. The poly community definitely sees it as a serious threat to its livelihood.
I would go ahead and try for the re-test--maybe you'll get VERY lucky and fall in that three percent and have everything cleared up--but, I wouldn't count on it. If you fail the 2nd test like I did, at least your second appeal letter disputing both results will be placed in your permanent file. The FBI's hiring procedures don't allow for additional testing after the second failure--you are basically cut loose and told that no further avenues exist for you to seek employment with the FBI. Be sure to write a second letter disputing both tests. It's very important. An examiner admitted to me that 20% of applicants fail the polygraph. However, if they actually admit to that number, you better believe its markedly higher. It's more like 50%, so we are definitely not alone. An FBI employee told me that more people are failing the poly because of the high number of applicants undergoing the screening process. Logic alone would tell you that 20 to 50% of FBI applicants are not druggies and dope peddlers. There are serious problems with the testing process. I never would have agreed to be part of this bogus testing procedure if I'd known that it has no scientific validity and is so unreliable. If you haven't already, you should download and read "The Lie Behind the Lie Detector," available on this site.
Don't expect quick action on your appeal. An agent told me that retests are put on the back burner, so that attention can be focused on those actually passing the tests. You may also receive conflicting stories regarding the seriousness of the failed poly result in your permanent file. An FBI employee told me that if it's not cleared up, it would follow me throughout my career in any federal serivce, while an examiner said it wasn't a big deal at all. Somebody's lying--the agency really should get its stories straight. In my opinion, it's things like this, which seriously undermine the FBI's credibility. Good luck to you in whatever you decide. Perhaps, you will have better luck than me.
P.S. Be cautious about certain advice on this board, since polygraph examiners post frequently here. If you have any doubts regarding the shortcomings of polygraph screening (which I'm sure you don't, since you told the truth and failed,) check out the 2002 National Academy of Sciences report on government pre-employment polygraph screening. It's also posted on this site or can be found using any search engine.
You are correct. The FBI does offer a retest in certain cases. However, I don't know how those decisions are made. One FBI employee told me that receiving a second test following an unexplained failure was pretty standard if the applicant requests it. On the other hand, an FBI agent told me not to count on getting a re-test because only three percent of those who fail the test the first time go on to pass the second test. Seems to be a pre-determined number. Allowing more to pass would certainly bring unwanted scrutiny to the polygraph screening process.
I received a second test, but was failed again, anyway. What you have to do to appeal the results of your test is write a letter saying that you disagree with the results and that you would like a re-test to clear your name. The letter should be addressed and sent to the name on the letter you receive stating that your conditional employment offer has been rescinded based on the results of your polygraph, which were "not within acceptable parameters." If your letter says anything else like you withheld information, then you would not qualify for a re-test.
It takes about three months to be re-tested, but before that happens an agent will interview you. Be prepared for an in-depth discussion on your experience with drugs--whether you've used them before or just been around them--your ENTIRE DETAILED experience. The interview is stressful--you will be asked to remember the impossible--it's really quite ridiculous. The agency will use that information to decide whether to grant you a retest. About a month after that interview, you would be scheduled for a poly. I can tell you most assuredly that you are stuck between a rock and a hard place. With only a three percent chance of passing, the odds are stacked against you. If you do pass the second time, the examiner will accuse you of using countermeasures to pass the test--be prepared for this. I was actually directed to this site by a paranoid poly examiner. The poly community definitely sees it as a serious threat to its livelihood.
I would go ahead and try for the re-test--maybe you'll get VERY lucky and fall in that three percent and have everything cleared up--but, I wouldn't count on it. If you fail the 2nd test like I did, at least your second appeal letter disputing both results will be placed in your permanent file. The FBI's hiring procedures don't allow for additional testing after the second failure--you are basically cut loose and told that no further avenues exist for you to seek employment with the FBI. Be sure to write a second letter disputing both tests. It's very important. An examiner admitted to me that 20% of applicants fail the polygraph. However, if they actually admit to that number, you better believe its markedly higher. It's more like 50%, so we are definitely not alone. An FBI employee told me that more people are failing the poly because of the high number of applicants undergoing the screening process. Logic alone would tell you that 20 to 50% of FBI applicants are not druggies and dope peddlers. There are serious problems with the testing process. I never would have agreed to be part of this bogus testing procedure if I'd known that it has no scientific validity and is so unreliable. If you haven't already, you should download and read "The Lie Behind the Lie Detector," available on this site.
Don't expect quick action on your appeal. An agent told me that retests are put on the back burner, so that attention can be focused on those actually passing the tests. You may also receive conflicting stories regarding the seriousness of the failed poly result in your permanent file. An FBI employee told me that if it's not cleared up, it would follow me throughout my career in any federal serivce, while an examiner said it wasn't a big deal at all. Somebody's lying--the agency really should get its stories straight. In my opinion, it's things like this, which seriously undermine the FBI's credibility. Good luck to you in whatever you decide. Perhaps, you will have better luck than me.
P.S. Be cautious about certain advice on this board, since polygraph examiners post frequently here. If you have any doubts regarding the shortcomings of polygraph screening (which I'm sure you don't, since you told the truth and failed,) check out the 2002 National Academy of Sciences report on government pre-employment polygraph screening. It's also posted on this site or can be found using any search engine.
Posted by checking
- Mar 31, 2005, 09:24 PMSimply tell the truth and let the cards fall where they may. Using counter measures will ensure you will not get the job. If you are getting a retest it indicates that the first test was not totally acceptable to the agency. If you listen to people that have also failed the polygraph you will not get information that will get the job for you. If they could pass the examination, why would they still be complaining about being found untruthful on their examinations? Just be honest and be sure and tell the ones testing you that you have read about counter measures and do not intend to use them, you want to pass your polygraph with honesty. Good Luck
Posted by FBI_SA_appl
- Mar 31, 2005, 06:05 PMPolyfool -- I had the same thing happen to me really really recently. I'm still waiting to hear back from the agency on retesting, from what I've heard they alow retests. You should look into a retest. Let me know what you find out.
I have no idea how I'm going to pass the second time around if I failed the first. If anyone has any suggestions for what to do on the retest, please let me know. How do you pass a relevent/irrelevent question test? The examiner told me I have a higher reaction to a certain 2questions. How do I stop that from happening?
I have no idea how I'm going to pass the second time around if I failed the first. If anyone has any suggestions for what to do on the retest, please let me know. How do you pass a relevent/irrelevent question test? The examiner told me I have a higher reaction to a certain 2questions. How do I stop that from happening?
Posted by polyfool
- Feb 24, 2005, 07:43 PMNo, not an NSA actor. Are they supposed to be the worst?
Posted by NSAreject2
- Feb 24, 2005, 07:34 PMpolyfool,
Was this madman one of the actors at NSA ? The
dropping of the polyraph, for federal agencies, will
never happen; there are too many suckers still left.
Was this madman one of the actors at NSA ? The
dropping of the polyraph, for federal agencies, will
never happen; there are too many suckers still left.
Posted by polyfool
- Feb 24, 2005, 06:31 PMI wish I had known about this site before I took my first pre-employment poly with a fed. agency. Believe it or not, a paranoid poly examiner actually directed me to it. I took the test without knowing much about and its shortcomings. I told the truth about everything and I failed it. The examiner acted like a madman and falsely accused me of all sorts of things. Listen to George-he knows what he's talking about. I had no idea this was a problem until I became a false positive victim myself. I can't believe the govt. is using this bogus testing that excludes the most trustworthy of all-those willing to be completely open and honest. What a scam. Don't be a fool like I was. George, I commend you for all your hard work, dedication and for standing up for what is right. I hope the days of preemployment poly screening will soon come to and end.