- Welcome to AntiPolygraph.org Message Board.
A forum for free and open discussion of polygraph-related topics
Posted by polyfool
- Jul 15, 2005, 09:48 PMSergeant:
It's pretty obvious that the polygraph community is very threatened by the existence of this site and the information it contains. Funny thing is, some examiners who post on this board contend countermeasures don't work while others say George is giving out information that will help the guilty go free in criminal investigations. Polygraph examiners are paranoid about this site and it seems they are helping to spread the word of its existence. I would never have known about it if it weren't for two federal polygraph examiners--thanks guys! Way to get the word out!
Now, I do my best to educate everyone I come in contact with about the polygraph being a complete joke and advise them to never submit to one under any circumstances. If the polygraph's scientific invalidity becomes well-known and everyone finds out about the lie behind the lie detector, they would eventually become obsolete.
I work in a profession that receives its fair share of criticism. However, I know there is truth and validity to what I do for a living (although it's far from perfect) just as you do in your job as a crash scene reconstructionist. The polygraph community's hostility probably comes from the simple fact that deep down, though they would never admit it, they know there is no validity to the test. I fully understand that polys can be useful in criminal investigations and that some cases would go unsolved if not for the poly. However, it's not the poly that results in the confessions, it's the false belief that it works. The polygraph is an utterly useless tool, unless the examinee is willing to give up information.
It's pretty obvious that the polygraph community is very threatened by the existence of this site and the information it contains. Funny thing is, some examiners who post on this board contend countermeasures don't work while others say George is giving out information that will help the guilty go free in criminal investigations. Polygraph examiners are paranoid about this site and it seems they are helping to spread the word of its existence. I would never have known about it if it weren't for two federal polygraph examiners--thanks guys! Way to get the word out!
Now, I do my best to educate everyone I come in contact with about the polygraph being a complete joke and advise them to never submit to one under any circumstances. If the polygraph's scientific invalidity becomes well-known and everyone finds out about the lie behind the lie detector, they would eventually become obsolete.
I work in a profession that receives its fair share of criticism. However, I know there is truth and validity to what I do for a living (although it's far from perfect) just as you do in your job as a crash scene reconstructionist. The polygraph community's hostility probably comes from the simple fact that deep down, though they would never admit it, they know there is no validity to the test. I fully understand that polys can be useful in criminal investigations and that some cases would go unsolved if not for the poly. However, it's not the poly that results in the confessions, it's the false belief that it works. The polygraph is an utterly useless tool, unless the examinee is willing to give up information.
Posted by Sergeant1107
- Jul 15, 2005, 12:08 PMQuote from: polyfool on Jul 15, 2005, 01:13 AMSpark:
From your angry tone and bitterness, it's quite obvious that you are one of the many polygraph examiners who are threatened by George and this site. We all understand-- I mean, it is screwing with your livelihood, after all.
Name one spy who has been caught by the polygraph.
Polyfool,
I believe your assessment of Spark is accurate. I am still puzzled by the hostility of the polygraph profession when confronted with questions about the accuracy of their "science." I feel like I have to rhetorically ask what they are so worried about?
I am a traffic crash reconstructionist. I work with mathematical equations based on Newtonian physics. If there was a web site which claimed that gravity didn't work, or that a body in motion will not remain in motion unless acted on by an outside force, I would likely be amused by it. I would certainly not launch an attack against the founders of such a site. Anyone who wants to claim that minimum speed cannot be determined by skid marks, or that exact speed cannot be determined by a yaw mark, or that a tractor-trailer traveling at 40 MPH can stop on its own in only fifteen feet is free to give it a try. It won't upset me or any other reconstructionist at all, because we know that the science behind our avocation is proven and accurate.
Posted by polyfool
- Jul 15, 2005, 01:13 AMSpark:
From your angry tone and bitterness, it's quite obvious that you are one of the many polygraph examiners who are threatened by George and this site. We all understand-- I mean, it is screwing with your livelihood, after all.
Name one spy who has been caught by the polygraph.
From your angry tone and bitterness, it's quite obvious that you are one of the many polygraph examiners who are threatened by George and this site. We all understand-- I mean, it is screwing with your livelihood, after all.
Name one spy who has been caught by the polygraph.
Posted by spark
- Jul 15, 2005, 12:39 AMRealgy,
What you didn't read in chapters 3 and 4 is how to suppress guilty knowledge. How do you do that anyway? How hard do you have to apply these counter measures so they "beat" the guilty knowledge riddled relevants? Also, one other thing you constantly overlook is you read and read and read but when actually did you get a chance to practice? Was your first practice also at the same time your ass was on the line??? That sucks! How did that work out for you? Have you asked Old George for an apology? And what really sucks is what if you were actually innocent...now you want more from George than an "I'm sorry for throwing me under the bus." What you don't realize is maybe the true professional (the spy who has invested the time, money, effort to purchase and practice his/her efforts) can master these skills (thanks for helping the spies George, you're a true American) but the laymen, like you and me Realgy, go in the room and choke, just like you explained you did. Why, because your still have to compete with the above, that darn old guilty knowledge that can't be suppressed, etc. Hmmmm, I wonder why nobody in the federal program wants to take you up on your challenge??? And, how many other Realgy's are there out there? We need to start a forum for those that George screwed over just like Realgy.
What you didn't read in chapters 3 and 4 is how to suppress guilty knowledge. How do you do that anyway? How hard do you have to apply these counter measures so they "beat" the guilty knowledge riddled relevants? Also, one other thing you constantly overlook is you read and read and read but when actually did you get a chance to practice? Was your first practice also at the same time your ass was on the line??? That sucks! How did that work out for you? Have you asked Old George for an apology? And what really sucks is what if you were actually innocent...now you want more from George than an "I'm sorry for throwing me under the bus." What you don't realize is maybe the true professional (the spy who has invested the time, money, effort to purchase and practice his/her efforts) can master these skills (thanks for helping the spies George, you're a true American) but the laymen, like you and me Realgy, go in the room and choke, just like you explained you did. Why, because your still have to compete with the above, that darn old guilty knowledge that can't be suppressed, etc. Hmmmm, I wonder why nobody in the federal program wants to take you up on your challenge??? And, how many other Realgy's are there out there? We need to start a forum for those that George screwed over just like Realgy.
Posted by railroaded
- Jun 08, 2005, 01:07 PMForgive my ignorance, but why would anyone ever fail a silent test? Couldn't they just "think" the correct answer, be it incriminating or not, and thus show no reaction?
Posted by George W. Maschke
- Jan 25, 2005, 05:33 AMNot necessarily. In Truth and Deception: The Polygraph ("Lie-Detector") Technique (2nd ed., Williams & Wilkins, 1977), John E. Reid and Fred E. Inbau adduce the following "advantages" of the silent answer test (p. 152):
Quote1. It is less cumbersome and easier to explain to the subject than other tests.
2. It requires less effort on the part of the subject during the test, with a consequent elimination of interfering factors such as coughing, sighing, and clearing of the throat.
3. It is unnecessary for the subject to alert himself mentally as seemingly is required during a "yes"-"no" test. In this manner the SAT assists in reducing anticipatory responses.
4. It is easier to test a subject who has a speech defect, such as a stammerer or stutterer who is spared the ordeal of an answer.
5. A person who has a tendency to gesture when he speaks will not feel impelled to gesture if he is not required to answer.
6. A person who is self-conscious when he speaks does not have this difficulty in an SAT.
7. An overly nervous subject appears to be more at ease if he is not required to answer the test questions.
8. The SAT materially assists the examiner in successfully testing subjects who are stubbornly reluctant to answer the control questions.
Posted by realgy
- Jan 23, 2005, 09:40 PMIs that then the only case they use the silent answer test, that is if they think you are using countermeasures?
Posted by George W. Maschke
- Jan 22, 2005, 03:58 PMYou'll find the "Silent Answer Test" explained in the discussion thread, Counter-countermeasure techniques.
Posted by realgy
- Jan 22, 2005, 03:29 PMThanks for the insight. I think I got mixed up totally with what seemed like so many relavant questions, but I do think the polygrapher's decision was made to fail me when he accused me of manipulating my breathing from the onset. There was also a series of what he called silent questions,, he read out the questions to me and I was to answer them silently in my head and not out loud, something I havent read about here. I'd like to note that in the Ill. code that you were most kind to give a link to does state that in completion of sex offender treatment, a failed polygraph cannot be used to make the sole decision to consider the offender's program completion status.
Posted by George W. Maschke
- Jan 22, 2005, 03:43 AMWhat precisely do you mean when you say you "used proper CMs on the CQ's and the RQ's." Did you augment reactions to any relevant questions? To have done so would have been a mistake. If you could privately provide a copy of your polygraph charts, I'd be happy to comment on them.
Note that polygraphers who administer post-conviction polygraph examinations may have a financial incentive to "fail" examinees, in order to keep them returning for additional "testing." The fact that your polygrapher demanded extra payment just to show you your polygraph charts suggests that he might be the kind of operator who would manipulate results to enhance his cash flow. If you would send me a private message via this board, I would be interested in knowing his identity.
For information about the regulations governing the use of polygraphs in sex offender treatment programs in Illinois, see 20 Illinois Administrative Code Ch. VII, Sec. 1905 (Interim Sex Offender Evaluation and Treatment):
http://www.ag.state.il.us/communities/somb/interim_sex_offender_evaluation_and_treatment_1905.pdf
Note that polygraphers who administer post-conviction polygraph examinations may have a financial incentive to "fail" examinees, in order to keep them returning for additional "testing." The fact that your polygrapher demanded extra payment just to show you your polygraph charts suggests that he might be the kind of operator who would manipulate results to enhance his cash flow. If you would send me a private message via this board, I would be interested in knowing his identity.
For information about the regulations governing the use of polygraphs in sex offender treatment programs in Illinois, see 20 Illinois Administrative Code Ch. VII, Sec. 1905 (Interim Sex Offender Evaluation and Treatment):
http://www.ag.state.il.us/communities/somb/interim_sex_offender_evaluation_and_treatment_1905.pdf
Posted by realgy
- Jan 21, 2005, 11:45 PMThis was from a misdemeanor sex offense indecent exposure,I am on probation for a year and as required in Illinois to be part of the sex offender assessment (like other states) you have to submit to the polygraph. I was told this was a "clinical" polygraph to determine the amount of "treatment" I would need. What I'm scared of is how this (failing the first test) would affect my probation.
Posted by dimas
- Jan 21, 2005, 10:54 PM$350.00 dollars? and an extra 10 per question?
hmmmm......
So if you pass it is 350 but if you fail it is closer to 400?
looks like it is to his advantage to fail you and offer you a second one (at a discounted price of course)
I am definitely working in the wrong line of Law Enforcement.
Personally I would steer clear of the breathing countermeasures. That is of course only my personal opinion based on my own expericences and not a scientific fact.
Why were you polygraphed in the first place?
hmmmm......
So if you pass it is 350 but if you fail it is closer to 400?
looks like it is to his advantage to fail you and offer you a second one (at a discounted price of course)
I am definitely working in the wrong line of Law Enforcement.
Personally I would steer clear of the breathing countermeasures. That is of course only my personal opinion based on my own expericences and not a scientific fact.
Why were you polygraphed in the first place?
Posted by Jeffery
- Jan 21, 2005, 10:54 PMHe wanted an extra $10 to let you look at the charts? That sounds completely pathetic.
Sounds like a fraud to me.
Sounds like a fraud to me.
Posted by anxietyguy
- Jan 21, 2005, 10:48 PMSounds like he knew you would fail before he even hooked you up. What are the circumstances of you being polygraphed?
Anxiety
Anxiety
Posted by realgy
- Jan 21, 2005, 10:43 PMI spent a week reading and re-reading Chapters 3 and 4; practiced my breathing and even recorded test questions and "answered" them. The big day came today and I failed the test, miserably according to the poligrapher, who was a complete a------ from the start. After hooking me up and watching my breathing, he shut the machine off and went in to a tirade that I was purposely manipulating steady breathing which was not normal. I feel that sealed my fate with this jerk right off the bat; I wanted to look at the specific questions I missed and he said I'd have to pay additional $10 for that (the damn thing already cost $350). I used the proper CMs on the CQ's and the RQ's but to no avail I guess. The only conclusion of this is that this was, as they called it, a clinical polygraph, for which they can judge what kind of treatment I need, which of course means more $$ in their pockets.