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Posted by savemydaughter
- Dec 22, 2004, 02:16 PMdimas,
Thanks for the post. I am a bit technologically challenged, so I am not quite sure how to send you an e-mail message through the site.
However, my daughter is elementary school aged and after going over her medical records, I have reason to believe the abuse was occurring for at least 2 years, which would make her around 4 or 5 at the time. This is when she began to complain of irritation, and also when she expressed some knowledge of oral sex, which I unfortunately dismissed. I now know through education and therapy that children will often begin to disclose in a variety of ways, sometimes telling a story that will only have a shred of truth to it (such as inappropriate sexual knowledge) to try to cry out to the adults around them that something bad is happening to them. This was also around the same time that I began working outside the home, which would affirm my daughter's statements that the abuse usually occurred when I was at work. (I worked evenings.) Unfortunately for my daughter, she had to basically hit me between the eyes with the truth before I would see what had been happening to her. I agonize over my missing the signs beforehand.
Thank you for the advice you gave me aboiut what to do when she is forced into visitations. I appreciate that.
Sincerely,
savemydaughter
Thanks for the post. I am a bit technologically challenged, so I am not quite sure how to send you an e-mail message through the site.
However, my daughter is elementary school aged and after going over her medical records, I have reason to believe the abuse was occurring for at least 2 years, which would make her around 4 or 5 at the time. This is when she began to complain of irritation, and also when she expressed some knowledge of oral sex, which I unfortunately dismissed. I now know through education and therapy that children will often begin to disclose in a variety of ways, sometimes telling a story that will only have a shred of truth to it (such as inappropriate sexual knowledge) to try to cry out to the adults around them that something bad is happening to them. This was also around the same time that I began working outside the home, which would affirm my daughter's statements that the abuse usually occurred when I was at work. (I worked evenings.) Unfortunately for my daughter, she had to basically hit me between the eyes with the truth before I would see what had been happening to her. I agonize over my missing the signs beforehand.
Thank you for the advice you gave me aboiut what to do when she is forced into visitations. I appreciate that.
Sincerely,
savemydaughter
Posted by dimas
- Dec 20, 2004, 04:51 AMsavemydaughter,
Once again, I must clearly state that I truly do feel for you and your daughter. I was in no way implying that you are lying. I simply like to state the entire case for people to be able to form an opinion that is derived from educated responses.
There are a few issues that I kind of need to know in order to offer more detailed advice. This is something I do not expect you to post, but instead ask that it be sent confidentially to me here at this site.
1. Age of your daughter at the time of the alleged abuse.
2. Age of your daughter now.
3. State in which the abuse occured and whether the CPS agency was a County, City or State entity.
I must also tell you that I am no lawyer, so my advice can only be taken at face value.
If you have already contacted a lawyer that works in the State in which this occured and there was nothing he could do, then there is probably nothing I could help with either.
If your daugther is going to go see him again all I can tell you is to:
1. Have her keep a journal and tell her it is ok to yell out for help if need be. Most child molesters do so because their victims will not fight back, my experience has been that they are for the most part cowards.
2. Immediately notify another adult if the abuse occurs. Tell her to call the COPS! Physical evidence is hard to deny and the sooner that she can be evaluated by a medical professional the better.
3. Get her a little voice recorder. This can help in one of two ways. 1. audio proof of the father attempting to hurt her. 2. The father may in fact see the recorder and get spooked. 3. This may also be a negative factor in that the father may see this and get angry and physically act out.
Once again there are more or less things that can be done depending on the age of your daughter. Once again I wish you luck in this matter.
Once again, I must clearly state that I truly do feel for you and your daughter. I was in no way implying that you are lying. I simply like to state the entire case for people to be able to form an opinion that is derived from educated responses.
There are a few issues that I kind of need to know in order to offer more detailed advice. This is something I do not expect you to post, but instead ask that it be sent confidentially to me here at this site.
1. Age of your daughter at the time of the alleged abuse.
2. Age of your daughter now.
3. State in which the abuse occured and whether the CPS agency was a County, City or State entity.
I must also tell you that I am no lawyer, so my advice can only be taken at face value.
If you have already contacted a lawyer that works in the State in which this occured and there was nothing he could do, then there is probably nothing I could help with either.
If your daugther is going to go see him again all I can tell you is to:
1. Have her keep a journal and tell her it is ok to yell out for help if need be. Most child molesters do so because their victims will not fight back, my experience has been that they are for the most part cowards.
2. Immediately notify another adult if the abuse occurs. Tell her to call the COPS! Physical evidence is hard to deny and the sooner that she can be evaluated by a medical professional the better.
3. Get her a little voice recorder. This can help in one of two ways. 1. audio proof of the father attempting to hurt her. 2. The father may in fact see the recorder and get spooked. 3. This may also be a negative factor in that the father may see this and get angry and physically act out.
Once again there are more or less things that can be done depending on the age of your daughter. Once again I wish you luck in this matter.
Posted by dimas
- Dec 20, 2004, 04:39 AMQuote from: willy on Dec 19, 2004, 06:22 PMHey George,
Maybe you taught a molester how to use counter measures to pass his poly..?
Good job George !!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ok, let me clarify this once and for all!
Blaming George or this site for a child molester pass a polygraph is just like blaming the movie HEAT for teaching someone how to rob a bank. The argument is lacking simply because there are many other factors involved.
1. Other sources that would teach one how to rob a bank (other movies, books, TV shows etc.
2. Along the same lines this is not the only site that teaches one how to attempt to deceive a polygrapher.
3. Once again we must also attach blame to those that give the polygraph so much credit, so as to believe that when one passes a polygraph he is innocent.
Willy, if you have something of substance to say please do so, but to simply come out and act like an ass really does nothing but make people aware of the fact that you are indeed an ASS.
Posted by savemydaughter
- Dec 20, 2004, 02:16 AMWhile it is frustrating that there are so many sites dedicated to providing tips on how to beat a polygraph, this site is more dedicated to exposing the fact that there is no scientific validity to the polygraph. Personally, I know my estranged husband received training in how to handle interrogations and if he were to have researched how to beat a polygraph on the internet, he would have found about 50 pages on the search engines full of sites that would tell him how to do so.
Furthermore, there was indeed a CPS investigation. They were forced by law to term the case as "unable to determine" due to the lack of physical evidence. Howver, it has been the CPS worker's personal admonition to me that she believes without a doubt that my daughter has been sexually abused by her father, she is just unable to prove it. Her therapy that occurred before and after her outcry also points to the truthfulness of her allegations. In addition, I would like to have it pointed out (if I have not previously done so) that it was her father's suggestion that he take a polygraph...not LE. This in and of itself makes me suspicious.
Now, on a bit more personal note. I fully realize that there are ex spouses that coach their children into sexual abuse allegations, but I personally cannot fathom why anyone would do that. The day that my daughter made her first outcry at the dr. was the most gut wrenching day of my life. I functioned through it as a shell. I was a body going through the motions necessary to handle the situation. I fought back the overwhelming urge to vomit or break down into a puddle of tears for each remaining second of the day. Oddly enough, my initial reaction was not to go kill him. My initial reaction was to hold myself together and do whatever I needed to do to help my daughter to try to heal. Please, for those that are skeptics, do not be so brazenly callous as to assume that most outcries of sexual abuse from children of divorced or estranged parents are false. Women, such as myself, that lived with their children through years of domestic violence are conditioned right along with their children not to rock the boat or do anything that would incur his wrath. It is only natural that if such atrocities as sexual abuse were occuring that the child would truly be unable to reveal the abuse while living in a violent home. They are paralyzed by fear. Once they are in a place where they feel safe (such as several states away from their abuser), they will begin to disclose all that took place. Why would any parent want to make a false allegation??? I know it happens, but I do not understand it.
Furthermore, there was indeed a CPS investigation. They were forced by law to term the case as "unable to determine" due to the lack of physical evidence. Howver, it has been the CPS worker's personal admonition to me that she believes without a doubt that my daughter has been sexually abused by her father, she is just unable to prove it. Her therapy that occurred before and after her outcry also points to the truthfulness of her allegations. In addition, I would like to have it pointed out (if I have not previously done so) that it was her father's suggestion that he take a polygraph...not LE. This in and of itself makes me suspicious.
Now, on a bit more personal note. I fully realize that there are ex spouses that coach their children into sexual abuse allegations, but I personally cannot fathom why anyone would do that. The day that my daughter made her first outcry at the dr. was the most gut wrenching day of my life. I functioned through it as a shell. I was a body going through the motions necessary to handle the situation. I fought back the overwhelming urge to vomit or break down into a puddle of tears for each remaining second of the day. Oddly enough, my initial reaction was not to go kill him. My initial reaction was to hold myself together and do whatever I needed to do to help my daughter to try to heal. Please, for those that are skeptics, do not be so brazenly callous as to assume that most outcries of sexual abuse from children of divorced or estranged parents are false. Women, such as myself, that lived with their children through years of domestic violence are conditioned right along with their children not to rock the boat or do anything that would incur his wrath. It is only natural that if such atrocities as sexual abuse were occuring that the child would truly be unable to reveal the abuse while living in a violent home. They are paralyzed by fear. Once they are in a place where they feel safe (such as several states away from their abuser), they will begin to disclose all that took place. Why would any parent want to make a false allegation??? I know it happens, but I do not understand it.
Posted by George W. Maschke
- Dec 19, 2004, 07:18 PMWilly,
It is entirely possible that savemydaughter's husband learned how to pass a polygraph "test" from AntiPolygraph.org. Anyone who researches the polygraph on-line is sure to find this website.
AntiPolygraph.org makes no apologies for making such information available. It is necessary for providing truthful persons with a means of protecting themselves against the random error associated with an invalid procedure that is wrongly called a "test." I have explained the ethical considerations involved in "A Response to Paul M. Menges Regarding the Ethical Considerations of Providing Polygraph Countermeasures to the Public." If you disagree with the points I raise there, feel free to post counterarguments there.
Since polygraph "testing" has no scientific basis to begin with and is vulnerable to simple countermeasures that polygraphers cannot reliably detect, why should any investigator worthy of the name rely on polygraph chart readings?
It is entirely possible that savemydaughter's husband learned how to pass a polygraph "test" from AntiPolygraph.org. Anyone who researches the polygraph on-line is sure to find this website.
AntiPolygraph.org makes no apologies for making such information available. It is necessary for providing truthful persons with a means of protecting themselves against the random error associated with an invalid procedure that is wrongly called a "test." I have explained the ethical considerations involved in "A Response to Paul M. Menges Regarding the Ethical Considerations of Providing Polygraph Countermeasures to the Public." If you disagree with the points I raise there, feel free to post counterarguments there.
Since polygraph "testing" has no scientific basis to begin with and is vulnerable to simple countermeasures that polygraphers cannot reliably detect, why should any investigator worthy of the name rely on polygraph chart readings?
Posted by willy
- Dec 19, 2004, 06:22 PMHey George,
Maybe you taught a molester how to use counter measures to pass his poly..?
Good job George !!!!!!!!!!!!!
Maybe you taught a molester how to use counter measures to pass his poly..
?Good job George !!!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted by Jeffery
- Dec 19, 2004, 09:29 AMDimas-
Having one's head up one's ass is like being a cop. Surrounded by crap all the time.
Yes I am aware that the accusations could be false. Yes I am aware that it happens and the accusations could be devasting to the suspect if they indeed are false.
That is why it is terrible that the polygraph could incorrectly 'convict' a suspect. It is also sad when an incorrect polygraph is the final piece of information used to close a case on a guilty perv.
My comments on the polygraph being used were intended more in general terms and not at specific cops who use them.
In this example we only know the details as relayed by the mother. Assuming they are true, in this case, the use of the ploygraph did not serve the interests of justice, and indeed may have thwarted them.
Having one's head up one's ass is like being a cop. Surrounded by crap all the time.
Yes I am aware that the accusations could be false. Yes I am aware that it happens and the accusations could be devasting to the suspect if they indeed are false.
That is why it is terrible that the polygraph could incorrectly 'convict' a suspect. It is also sad when an incorrect polygraph is the final piece of information used to close a case on a guilty perv.
My comments on the polygraph being used were intended more in general terms and not at specific cops who use them.
In this example we only know the details as relayed by the mother. Assuming they are true, in this case, the use of the ploygraph did not serve the interests of justice, and indeed may have thwarted them.
Posted by George W. Maschke
- Dec 19, 2004, 07:10 AMdimas,
I think my comparison to the Navy case was indeed apt. It wasn't my intention to compare the relative strength of the unexploited investigative leads available in these two cases. (In the Navy case, it is pretty clear that the polygraph was used as a pretext for prematurely closing an investigation, and I'm not arguing that this is necessarily the case here.) Rather, it was my purpose to point out that in both cases, the polygraph was relied on before all other investigative means were exhausted. The legal protections enjoyed by those who are subject to military law versus those who are not is irrelevant to this point. You had suggested that the polygraph is used only as a tool of last resort. I think it's clear that this is not always the case.
The reason I believe it would have been appropriate for investigators to conduct a new interview with the alleged victim is that they had expressed dissatisfaction with the way the taped interview was conducted. According to savemydaughter, "[t]hey insinuated that the taped interview was leading."
The reason I believe a review of the alleged victim's medical file could have been helpful is that it might have confirmed whether or not the daughter's symptoms were consistent with the allegation of digital penetration. Did these symptoms ever occur at times when the father was away from home? (As a member of the armed forces, he may have had periods of temporary duty at other locations.)
I am not suggesting that information gleaned from the above two investigative steps alone would or could have produced enough evidence to bring charges. But it seems to me that such information might have advanced the investigation and could have been useful in planning the polygraph interrogation of the alleged perpetrator.
Looking forward, if this alleged sexual abuse were to recur over the holidays, what advice would you give to savemydaughter? What sort of physical evidence might there be? What steps could the mother and daughter take to preserve it?
I think my comparison to the Navy case was indeed apt. It wasn't my intention to compare the relative strength of the unexploited investigative leads available in these two cases. (In the Navy case, it is pretty clear that the polygraph was used as a pretext for prematurely closing an investigation, and I'm not arguing that this is necessarily the case here.) Rather, it was my purpose to point out that in both cases, the polygraph was relied on before all other investigative means were exhausted. The legal protections enjoyed by those who are subject to military law versus those who are not is irrelevant to this point. You had suggested that the polygraph is used only as a tool of last resort. I think it's clear that this is not always the case.
The reason I believe it would have been appropriate for investigators to conduct a new interview with the alleged victim is that they had expressed dissatisfaction with the way the taped interview was conducted. According to savemydaughter, "[t]hey insinuated that the taped interview was leading."
The reason I believe a review of the alleged victim's medical file could have been helpful is that it might have confirmed whether or not the daughter's symptoms were consistent with the allegation of digital penetration. Did these symptoms ever occur at times when the father was away from home? (As a member of the armed forces, he may have had periods of temporary duty at other locations.)
I am not suggesting that information gleaned from the above two investigative steps alone would or could have produced enough evidence to bring charges. But it seems to me that such information might have advanced the investigation and could have been useful in planning the polygraph interrogation of the alleged perpetrator.
Looking forward, if this alleged sexual abuse were to recur over the holidays, what advice would you give to savemydaughter? What sort of physical evidence might there be? What steps could the mother and daughter take to preserve it?
Posted by dimas
- Dec 19, 2004, 01:24 AMGeorge,
I think you are comparing apples and oranges. first, off the use of a NAVY investigation versus a state/local PD investigation is completely different. The rights that people have in the NAVY vs. the general public are different. Both you and I know that.
Second, you refer to the alleged victim not being interviewed by the detective. Believe it or not this is not necessary, simply because she was already interviewed by someone else and a tape was given to the detective.
Third, you mention the medical records, yet the original poster points out that there was NO PHYSICAL evidence. The actual allegations were made months after the alleged abuse occured. What exactly are you hoping the medical files to prove or assist with?
George, you are a very smart man, don't let your dislike of the polygraph cloud your judgement.
Jeffrey,
With all due respect get your head out of your ass. Obviously you are not in LE, so you are talking about a subject that you are ignorant of. Are you even aware of how many ex-spouses use children to get back at their ex's? Haven't you seen those breaking 60 minutes news stories that recount events in which after a few minutes of coaching children are convinced that they were abused or molested?
Here is a tip, before you open your mouth on a subject you know nothing about, make an attempt to educate yourself because if not you risk making an ass of yourself. I worked with sexual predators/offenders prior to making my lateral over to LE. I more than anyone know how disgusting and revolting these people are. I have first hand seen the damage these people do to their victims and the family of the victim.
I also know what kind of damage a false accusation can have on a person's life. That is why it is so imperative that police tread softly when investigating these types of cases. For you to simply say a detective would be too lazy to investigate this is foolish. Look at the totality of what has been written. There is NO EVIDENCE to move on. Have you ever thought to consider that perhaps the Polygraph was brought in to see if perhaps they could get a confession?
Granted there still are some detectives out there that believe everything a polygrapher tells them, I truly doubt there are any out there who would not make sure they did everything they could to ensure that a child molester was removed from society or one that never takes the best interest of a child into consideration first.
I must also remind ALL of you that in these cases it is not only the police who get involved and investigate, but also the state Child Protective Services investigators. There was more to this than simply the polygraph.
I think you are comparing apples and oranges. first, off the use of a NAVY investigation versus a state/local PD investigation is completely different. The rights that people have in the NAVY vs. the general public are different. Both you and I know that.
Second, you refer to the alleged victim not being interviewed by the detective. Believe it or not this is not necessary, simply because she was already interviewed by someone else and a tape was given to the detective.
Third, you mention the medical records, yet the original poster points out that there was NO PHYSICAL evidence. The actual allegations were made months after the alleged abuse occured. What exactly are you hoping the medical files to prove or assist with?
George, you are a very smart man, don't let your dislike of the polygraph cloud your judgement.
Jeffrey,
With all due respect get your head out of your ass. Obviously you are not in LE, so you are talking about a subject that you are ignorant of. Are you even aware of how many ex-spouses use children to get back at their ex's? Haven't you seen those breaking 60 minutes news stories that recount events in which after a few minutes of coaching children are convinced that they were abused or molested?
Here is a tip, before you open your mouth on a subject you know nothing about, make an attempt to educate yourself because if not you risk making an ass of yourself. I worked with sexual predators/offenders prior to making my lateral over to LE. I more than anyone know how disgusting and revolting these people are. I have first hand seen the damage these people do to their victims and the family of the victim.
I also know what kind of damage a false accusation can have on a person's life. That is why it is so imperative that police tread softly when investigating these types of cases. For you to simply say a detective would be too lazy to investigate this is foolish. Look at the totality of what has been written. There is NO EVIDENCE to move on. Have you ever thought to consider that perhaps the Polygraph was brought in to see if perhaps they could get a confession?
Granted there still are some detectives out there that believe everything a polygrapher tells them, I truly doubt there are any out there who would not make sure they did everything they could to ensure that a child molester was removed from society or one that never takes the best interest of a child into consideration first.
I must also remind ALL of you that in these cases it is not only the police who get involved and investigate, but also the state Child Protective Services investigators. There was more to this than simply the polygraph.
Posted by savemydaughter
- Dec 19, 2004, 12:40 AMThanks for all of the comments. Especially those of support and information. This is a most frustrating time for me and I am finding that although the polygraph has been scientifically disproven, it is still heavily relied upon by law enforcement. It is senseless.
Posted by Jeffery
- Dec 16, 2004, 09:43 AMQuotePolygraphs are little more than toys for lazy beurocrats that give them an excuse to check the box on a form that they were predisopsed to check. Unfortunately in this case they were predisposed to not fully investigating your husband.
I really have a problem with this statement. As a LE officer for anyone to say that we are not doing our jobs. First, I repeat without any PHYSICAL evidence there is nothing that can be done. Second, the polygraph is merely a tool used to "assist" us when all other means are exhausted.
I apoligize if that remark offends you. Allow me to recharacterize that statement.
Polygraphs are little more than toys for exhausted and tool-less beurocrats that give them institutionally accepted evidence to "assist" them in checking the box on a form that they were predisopsed to check. Unfortunately in this case they were probably too happy to close a case where no physical evidence existed (or would have been too much work to find).
Posted by Jeffery
- Dec 16, 2004, 09:36 AMQuoteThird, simply because he passed the poly doesn't mean that he was deemed innocent, it simply means that there is NO PROOF!And if he had "failed" the poly would there then have been proof? Would he then be deemed guilty?
Posted by George W. Maschke
- Dec 16, 2004, 03:51 AMDimas,
Respectfully, I think you're mistaken when you say that without physical evidence, nothing can be done. The originator of this message thread pointed out two things that investigators could have done but failed to do:
1) interview the alleged victim;
2) request the alleged victim's medical files.
I think you're also mistaken when you characterize the polygraph as "merely a tool used to 'assist' us when all other means are exhausted." The polygraph is often used before all other means are exhausted, as in the present case. In another case about which I recently posted, Navy investigators closed a murder investigation based on the results of a polygraph "test" and failed to conduct any meaningful investigation into salient details of the allegations that could have been checked.
The polygraph is not "merely a tool." Unfortunately, investigators who use the polygraph tend to attach to it a diagnostic value that it simply does not have. The polygraph may well be useful as an interrogational prop (with subjects who don't realize that it's a fraud), but the "test" results themselves are about as meaningful as tea leaf readings. Unfortunately, they are often accorded undue weight by investigators who ought to know better.
Respectfully, I think you're mistaken when you say that without physical evidence, nothing can be done. The originator of this message thread pointed out two things that investigators could have done but failed to do:
1) interview the alleged victim;
2) request the alleged victim's medical files.
I think you're also mistaken when you characterize the polygraph as "merely a tool used to 'assist' us when all other means are exhausted." The polygraph is often used before all other means are exhausted, as in the present case. In another case about which I recently posted, Navy investigators closed a murder investigation based on the results of a polygraph "test" and failed to conduct any meaningful investigation into salient details of the allegations that could have been checked.
The polygraph is not "merely a tool." Unfortunately, investigators who use the polygraph tend to attach to it a diagnostic value that it simply does not have. The polygraph may well be useful as an interrogational prop (with subjects who don't realize that it's a fraud), but the "test" results themselves are about as meaningful as tea leaf readings. Unfortunately, they are often accorded undue weight by investigators who ought to know better.
Posted by dimas
- Dec 16, 2004, 02:26 AMQuote from: Jeffery on Dec 15, 2004, 09:15 PM
Polygraphs are little more than toys for lazy beurocrats that give them an excuse to check the box on a form that they were predisopsed to check. Unfortunately in this case they were predisposed to not fully investigating your husband.
I really have a problem with this statement. As a LE officer for anyone to say that we are not doing our jobs. First, I repeat without any PHYSICAL evidence there is nothing that can be done. Second, the polygraph is merely a tool used to "assist" us when all other means are exhausted. Third, simply because he passed the poly doesn't mean that he was deemed innocent, it simply means that there is NO PROOF!
Short of an admission there is nothing that can be done in the absence of concrete evidence.
Once again, I truly am sorry for anyone who is a victim of abuse, but in the system we live in we do our best with what we have. The idea of a child molester being let go is bothersome to all of us, but Everyone is innocent until proven guilty. If we can't prove him guilty then there is nothing we can do.
Posted by Jeffery
- Dec 15, 2004, 09:15 PMQuoteIt is extremely frustrating. Through my search for information on this subject I have found that most states are now relying on polygraph tests to monitor convicted sex offenders on parole. How scary is that??
Pretty scary if one is wrongly convicted or forced to take a polygraph to 'prove' one's innocence.
But I guess with your husband;s background he wasn't 'scared' at all to take his polygraph since he may have known how to beat them already.
Polygraphs are little more than toys for lazy beurocrats that give them an excuse to check the box on a form that they were predisopsed to check. Unfortunately in this case they were predisposed to not fully investigating your husband.
I hope your situation with your children improves and that your daughter can recover from this abuse.