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Posted by Fair Chance
- Dec 21, 2004, 12:19 PMWow,
Unless a written statement was obtained admitting a significant admission or ommission, I have never heard of a letter stating an applicant was guilty of deception and removed from the application process by the polygraph in writing. This would open the FBI to direct court challange of using the polygraph exam as the "end all" for an employment decision (possibly slandering one's character).
BOBVS, could you possibly double check the exact wording used in the letter your referenced as being "deceptive"? Were there any more clarifications that admissions were made to any accusations during the interrogation.
Interesting.
Regards
Unless a written statement was obtained admitting a significant admission or ommission, I have never heard of a letter stating an applicant was guilty of deception and removed from the application process by the polygraph in writing. This would open the FBI to direct court challange of using the polygraph exam as the "end all" for an employment decision (possibly slandering one's character).
BOBVS, could you possibly double check the exact wording used in the letter your referenced as being "deceptive"? Were there any more clarifications that admissions were made to any accusations during the interrogation.
Interesting.
Regards
Posted by George W. Maschke
- Dec 21, 2004, 02:51 AMThis is also the first I have heard of FBI disqualification letters stating that deception was indicated. I have heard of such letters making reference to disqualifying admissions, however.
Posted by G Scalabr
- Dec 21, 2004, 02:48 AMbobvs,
Thanks for this info. This is the first I have heard of FBI letters indicating deception indicated. Perhaps George can comment here...
QuoteI have received two letters from them, one that first stated non-favorable and the second, not within acceptable parameters. I spoke with a friend who also applied and he showed me his letter that said, deception indicated (two years ago). I spoke with the recruiter at the FBI, who is also a friend of mine, who told me my results were inconclusive and that if my results indicated deceptive my letter would say so and I would not be offered a re-test. The recruiter told me that the letter(s) they send would not specifically state "inconclusive." I have actually been offered another opportunity to retake the test a third time... which I have declined for many reasons, but that is a topic for another time.
Thanks for this info. This is the first I have heard of FBI letters indicating deception indicated. Perhaps George can comment here...
Posted by bobvs
- Dec 21, 2004, 12:01 AMOne bit of clarification. To my knowledge, the FBI has not been known to send letters specifically stating that deception was indicated. Anyone who does not pass simply receives a letter informing them that test results "were not within acceptable parameters" (this includes those who later find out through FOIA that their charts were scored as indicating deception).
******
Gino,
Just thought I would offer some clarification regarding my situation...
I have received two letters from them, one that first stated non-favorable and the second, not within acceptable parameters. I spoke with a friend who also applied and he showed me his letter that said, deception indicated (two years ago). I spoke with the recruiter at the FBI, who is also a friend of mine, who told me my results were inconclusive and that if my results indicated deceptive my letter would say so and I would not be offered a re-test. The recruiter told me that the letter(s) they send would not specifically state "inconclusive." I have actually been offered another opportunity to retake the test a third time... which I have declined for many reasons, but that is a topic for another time.
******
Gino,
Just thought I would offer some clarification regarding my situation...
I have received two letters from them, one that first stated non-favorable and the second, not within acceptable parameters. I spoke with a friend who also applied and he showed me his letter that said, deception indicated (two years ago). I spoke with the recruiter at the FBI, who is also a friend of mine, who told me my results were inconclusive and that if my results indicated deceptive my letter would say so and I would not be offered a re-test. The recruiter told me that the letter(s) they send would not specifically state "inconclusive." I have actually been offered another opportunity to retake the test a third time... which I have declined for many reasons, but that is a topic for another time.
Posted by G Scalabr
- Dec 20, 2004, 09:16 PMbobvs,
Thanks for sharing this info.
One bit of clarification. To my knowledge, the FBI has not been known to send letters specifically stating that deception was indicated. Anyone who does not pass simply receives a letter informing them that test results "were not within acceptable parameters" (this includes those who later find out through FOIA that their charts were scored as indicating deception).
The only other letter I know of that is routinely sent out to those are not selected opens by stating that the applicant was disqualified for "withholding information" and that the test scores were also not "within acceptable parameters. These letters are often seen where a polygrapher inflates and or fabricates admissions.
Thanks for sharing this info.
QuoteWell, just thought I would post a little update on what inconclusive results might mean for any of us... or results not within acceptable parameters... this research does not apply to deception indicated results...
One bit of clarification. To my knowledge, the FBI has not been known to send letters specifically stating that deception was indicated. Anyone who does not pass simply receives a letter informing them that test results "were not within acceptable parameters" (this includes those who later find out through FOIA that their charts were scored as indicating deception).
The only other letter I know of that is routinely sent out to those are not selected opens by stating that the applicant was disqualified for "withholding information" and that the test scores were also not "within acceptable parameters. These letters are often seen where a polygrapher inflates and or fabricates admissions.
Posted by bobvs
- Dec 20, 2004, 04:10 PMIn the interest of national security, public safety, and the equitable treatment of those who would serve, polygraph screening must be abolished across the board.
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George,
I could not agree more. I sincerely, as well as many others I am sure, appreciate your input regarding events that have the ability to have a profound impact on not just our lives, but that of our nation. I agree 100% with you that poly's should be abolished across the board. Thanks for providing a forum where we can discuss these issues... now, only if we could get the Presidents ear...
*****************
George,
I could not agree more. I sincerely, as well as many others I am sure, appreciate your input regarding events that have the ability to have a profound impact on not just our lives, but that of our nation. I agree 100% with you that poly's should be abolished across the board. Thanks for providing a forum where we can discuss these issues... now, only if we could get the Presidents ear...
Posted by George W. Maschke
- Dec 20, 2004, 04:40 AMbobvs,
It is to be hoped that it is indeed the case that many agencies now hold FBI polygraph results in low regard they most assuredly deserve. But these agencies need to understand that their own polygraph results have not a shred more validity than the FBI's. Their polygraphers are trained at the same school (DoDPI) and use the same, invalid technique (specifically, the DoDPI Law Enforcement Pre-Employment Test), which is not to say that there is a better polygraph school or a more valid polygraph screening format. Polygraph screening is pseudoscientific quackery, regardless of the operator's training or the technique used.
In the interest of national security, public safety, and the equitable treatment of those who would serve, polygraph screening must be abolished across the board.
It is to be hoped that it is indeed the case that many agencies now hold FBI polygraph results in low regard they most assuredly deserve. But these agencies need to understand that their own polygraph results have not a shred more validity than the FBI's. Their polygraphers are trained at the same school (DoDPI) and use the same, invalid technique (specifically, the DoDPI Law Enforcement Pre-Employment Test), which is not to say that there is a better polygraph school or a more valid polygraph screening format. Polygraph screening is pseudoscientific quackery, regardless of the operator's training or the technique used.
In the interest of national security, public safety, and the equitable treatment of those who would serve, polygraph screening must be abolished across the board.
Posted by bobvs
- Dec 20, 2004, 12:12 AMHi All,
Well, just thought I would post a little update on what inconclusive results might mean for any of us... or results not within acceptable parameters... this research does not apply to deception indicated results...
I have several friends who are Special Agents with several different agencies... who know my situation... and of course, know me and what kind of person I am. Fortunately for me (and those of you who have had similar results) the end is not near regarding other Federal LE/SA jobs. I have been told by numerous sources (that are also recruiters/polygraphers) for respective agencies, that many agencies hold FBI results in low regards and these types of results will not necessarily disbar us from other LE/SA employment. In matter of fact, one of my good friends who I was in combat with and is an SA told me to apply to his agency because his agency has had so many bad experiences with the FBI it would make me look good...
Other agencies realize people who acquire language skills and certain skill sets they say they want do not learn those things in the US... and will have probably required foreign travel... regardless of where that may have been. I think in short, this shows that the FBI has a real problem with anyone who has any type of foreign contact in the past or present... god help you if you are a first generation American and everyone in your family is from Europe or even worse... an Asian country. For an agency that claims to be progressive it seems they have not changed all that much in there way of thinking... but being most of their polygraphers have 20 or more years of service... should not surprise anyone.
I still want to serve our country... and will endeavor to do so. The 9/11 attacks have taught us two things we must always remember... to persevere and be committed. Don't let a single agency get you down because of their obviously inaccurate results, especially when you know you told the truth.
Well, just thought I would post a little update on what inconclusive results might mean for any of us... or results not within acceptable parameters... this research does not apply to deception indicated results...
I have several friends who are Special Agents with several different agencies... who know my situation... and of course, know me and what kind of person I am. Fortunately for me (and those of you who have had similar results) the end is not near regarding other Federal LE/SA jobs. I have been told by numerous sources (that are also recruiters/polygraphers) for respective agencies, that many agencies hold FBI results in low regards and these types of results will not necessarily disbar us from other LE/SA employment. In matter of fact, one of my good friends who I was in combat with and is an SA told me to apply to his agency because his agency has had so many bad experiences with the FBI it would make me look good...
Other agencies realize people who acquire language skills and certain skill sets they say they want do not learn those things in the US... and will have probably required foreign travel... regardless of where that may have been. I think in short, this shows that the FBI has a real problem with anyone who has any type of foreign contact in the past or present... god help you if you are a first generation American and everyone in your family is from Europe or even worse... an Asian country. For an agency that claims to be progressive it seems they have not changed all that much in there way of thinking... but being most of their polygraphers have 20 or more years of service... should not surprise anyone.
I still want to serve our country... and will endeavor to do so. The 9/11 attacks have taught us two things we must always remember... to persevere and be committed. Don't let a single agency get you down because of their obviously inaccurate results, especially when you know you told the truth.
Posted by wannabe12
- Dec 19, 2004, 11:43 PMDont feel bad, it seems as if serving your country is not enough. These agencies say they want prior service, but they do not want experience or dedication. I really do not know what they want. I was going to apply after I obtain my degree, but I see there is no chance I will get in no matter what amount of education or experience I have with the military and law enforcement. Never let them see you sweat.
Posted by jdavey77
- Dec 13, 2004, 01:48 AMUnfortunately, after failing the SS polygraph (for what, I don't know, other than the polygrapher really got to me and I ended up pretty heated) I was turned down for anything other than the written test by two local police departments. When it got to the oral interview both times, I was told basically to get lost.
After that, and looking around and seeing that all of the police departments in my area used the polygraph, I decided my best option was to choose a different career field. This was about a year ago.
After that, and looking around and seeing that all of the police departments in my area used the polygraph, I decided my best option was to choose a different career field. This was about a year ago.
Posted by Jeffery
- Nov 02, 2004, 12:26 AMSorry to hear of your experience with the Fumbling Bumbling Idiots. Not all Feebs are bad; but when, as an organization, they rely on a process as you describe, I personally can have no desire to work for them.
Have you read the two DoDPI manuals linked from the front of this web site? Take a look at those and see how closely your experience matched what is in those books. Then ask yourself how bad you still want to work for a government that uses such practices on honest, well meaning citizens?
Take your language skills, security experience and try and get a good job in corporate security or something in industry.
It's unfortunate that the FBI has to rely on a process like the polygraph to cover their backsides. The polygrapher you had probably was scared that you'd be the next Chinese mole in the Bureau, and didn't want his name in your file as the Polygrapher who approved you. No Polygrapher ever lost his job by giving out inconclusive results or falsely calling somebody a liar.
I'm sorry about your experience with them. But I'd write a letter and protest, then I'd walk away and not look back. There are other employers out there. Some people may view jobs in the Bureau as noble ways of serving ones country. Do you still feel that way after seeing how they operate?
Also read George's book. It explains the concept of Relevant versus Control questions. You probably showed a minimal or non reaction to the Control question, which screwed up the rest of the test for you.
Have you read the two DoDPI manuals linked from the front of this web site? Take a look at those and see how closely your experience matched what is in those books. Then ask yourself how bad you still want to work for a government that uses such practices on honest, well meaning citizens?
Take your language skills, security experience and try and get a good job in corporate security or something in industry.
It's unfortunate that the FBI has to rely on a process like the polygraph to cover their backsides. The polygrapher you had probably was scared that you'd be the next Chinese mole in the Bureau, and didn't want his name in your file as the Polygrapher who approved you. No Polygrapher ever lost his job by giving out inconclusive results or falsely calling somebody a liar.
I'm sorry about your experience with them. But I'd write a letter and protest, then I'd walk away and not look back. There are other employers out there. Some people may view jobs in the Bureau as noble ways of serving ones country. Do you still feel that way after seeing how they operate?
Also read George's book. It explains the concept of Relevant versus Control questions. You probably showed a minimal or non reaction to the Control question, which screwed up the rest of the test for you.
Posted by bobvs
- Nov 01, 2004, 10:34 PMHi All,
I too am a Gulf War 2 Vet, put my arse (as my British friends I worked with in Iraq liked to say) on the line many, many, many times... and the Fan Belt Inspectors had the gall to say I was being deceptive (results were officially labeled as non-favorable, although I was told the results were inconclusive). I spoke with the recruiter who knows me personally, and she was really ticked... and even told me this is why they are not admisable in court, because they just dont work. I also learned from her that she was really disappointed by this process because they lose a lot of really good applicants every year.
I have 10 years of military service... have a masters degree, am fluent in Chinese, and also work in the Intel. Field with the Navy, and most importantly, TOLD THE TRUTH! I truly believe our word is our bond, without it we have nothing. I have always told my supervisors ahead of time, "If I do something stupid or wrong, you'll hear about it first from me before anyone else, no matter how it makes me look." After reading this thread, I really am concerned about this. I tailored my education and career to work in Intel or Special Agent type jobs, and now, if I am reading correctly, might not be an option anymore. The polygrapher hounded me on the same questions... regarding foreign contacts. If anything, I was the guy at school and in the job to warn people to be careful who they associate with... especially at the school I graduated from, which had about 50% international students. The FBI also took issue with the fact I lived overseas a while... how else do they think a blond hair blue eyed guy is going to become fluent in Chinese? Certainly not in the United States. It seems the FBI has a real problem with anyone with any kind of foreign experience... I was invited to come back to a second interview because I was told my results were inconclusive. During the interview, the guy tried to rattle my cage, but it did not work. I am still in what I call "War Mode." If you are not trying to machine gun me, snipe me, drop artillary or mortor rounds on me, or trying to blow me up with an IED, I just dont get upset or "rattled." That seemed to irritate both polygraphers. At any rate, I was invited to come back for a second interview, but had the same inconclusive results. The second polygrapher actually lied to me... first he said my results were "Concrete, I was not telling the truth" then he later said my results were the same as last time... inconclusive... WTFO?
Question to you all, besides writing a letter disputing the polygraph, is there anything else I can do other than being ticked? Honestly, after this experience I have ZERO desire to want to work for the Fan Belt Inspectors, but don't want that to tarnish my record... I am in the application process with several other agencies, both LE and Intel., any advice how to proceed would be MUCH appreciated.
I too am a Gulf War 2 Vet, put my arse (as my British friends I worked with in Iraq liked to say) on the line many, many, many times... and the Fan Belt Inspectors had the gall to say I was being deceptive (results were officially labeled as non-favorable, although I was told the results were inconclusive). I spoke with the recruiter who knows me personally, and she was really ticked... and even told me this is why they are not admisable in court, because they just dont work. I also learned from her that she was really disappointed by this process because they lose a lot of really good applicants every year.
I have 10 years of military service... have a masters degree, am fluent in Chinese, and also work in the Intel. Field with the Navy, and most importantly, TOLD THE TRUTH! I truly believe our word is our bond, without it we have nothing. I have always told my supervisors ahead of time, "If I do something stupid or wrong, you'll hear about it first from me before anyone else, no matter how it makes me look." After reading this thread, I really am concerned about this. I tailored my education and career to work in Intel or Special Agent type jobs, and now, if I am reading correctly, might not be an option anymore. The polygrapher hounded me on the same questions... regarding foreign contacts. If anything, I was the guy at school and in the job to warn people to be careful who they associate with... especially at the school I graduated from, which had about 50% international students. The FBI also took issue with the fact I lived overseas a while... how else do they think a blond hair blue eyed guy is going to become fluent in Chinese? Certainly not in the United States. It seems the FBI has a real problem with anyone with any kind of foreign experience... I was invited to come back to a second interview because I was told my results were inconclusive. During the interview, the guy tried to rattle my cage, but it did not work. I am still in what I call "War Mode." If you are not trying to machine gun me, snipe me, drop artillary or mortor rounds on me, or trying to blow me up with an IED, I just dont get upset or "rattled." That seemed to irritate both polygraphers. At any rate, I was invited to come back for a second interview, but had the same inconclusive results. The second polygrapher actually lied to me... first he said my results were "Concrete, I was not telling the truth" then he later said my results were the same as last time... inconclusive... WTFO?
Question to you all, besides writing a letter disputing the polygraph, is there anything else I can do other than being ticked? Honestly, after this experience I have ZERO desire to want to work for the Fan Belt Inspectors, but don't want that to tarnish my record... I am in the application process with several other agencies, both LE and Intel., any advice how to proceed would be MUCH appreciated.
Posted by hanazono
- Oct 11, 2004, 11:15 PMI See....well I have know plenty of guys who failed the FBI poly and got jobs at Customs, SS, ATF, CIA and DIA. It seems it may be more damaging though if I were to apply to another job that required a poly. I really have no clue why I failed...
Posted by George W. Maschke
- Oct 11, 2004, 08:15 PMBe aware that the HQ file includes esentially all documentation associated with one's application for employment. It's not just the standard form letter rejecting the candidate.
That said, alll my FBI polygraph report indicated was that the polygrapher believed I had answered all relevant questions deceptively. I made no damaging admissions regarding any of them (since I told the truth on all), and my file included my letter disputing the polygraph results. But it didn't matter.
That said, alll my FBI polygraph report indicated was that the polygrapher believed I had answered all relevant questions deceptively. I made no damaging admissions regarding any of them (since I told the truth on all), and my file included my letter disputing the polygraph results. But it didn't matter.
Posted by hanazono
- Oct 11, 2004, 08:09 PMI agree that if there was some "report" in writing saying a guy was drug trafficker etc. But these standard letters do not give any specifics so........