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A forum for free and open discussion of polygraph-related topics
Posted by T.M. Cullen
- Feb 25, 2009, 11:44 PMQuoteTo be fair, even your favorite oft quoted NAS study found accuracy rates significantly above chance for some uses.
To wit, the NAS reported concluded the following:
"Estimate of Accuracy Notwithstanding the limitations of the quality of the empirical research and the limited ability to generalize to real-world settings, we conclude that in populations of examinees such as those represented in the polygraph research literature, untrained in countermeasures, specific-incident polygraph tests for event-specific investigations can discriminate lying from truth telling at rates well above chance, though well below perfection.
Accuracy may be highly variable across situations. The evidence does not allow any precise quantitative estimate of polygraph accuracy or provide confidence that accuracy is stable across personality types, sociodemographic groups, psychological and medical conditions, examiner and examinee expectancies, or ways of administering the test and selecting questions. In particular, the evidence does not provide confidence that polygraph accuracy is robust against potential countermeasures. There is essentially no evidence on the incremental validity of polygraph testing, that is, its ability to add predictive value to that which can be achieved by other methods."
(MY UNDERLINING)
I can't think of anything more absurd, or cruel, than subjecting a retarded person to a polygraph interrogation on the pretext of "getting at the truth" or "eliminating" him/her as a "suspect", which is the typical ruse used by LE agencies and others to get people to voluntarily submit to a polygraphic interrogation.
Incidently, consider the phrase "significantly above chance" If one were to assume that to mean 20% "above chance" that would equate to only 60%! If 50% is "chance", then 1.2 x .5 = .6 or 60%. I'll even spot you 5%. Let's say 65% accuracy. That is not very accurate. Especially considering the way the polygraph is presented to the public at large, and suspects in particular.
So to be fair, and in the spirit of gentlepersonly debate, I'll revise my statement and say that the polygraph has not been found to be VERY accurate, and has been found to be unreliable, and NOT a scientifically valid test.
"Dear Suspect. We think you stole money from your employer. Will you take the polygraph test, which is really not a scientifically valid test, is unreliable, and not very accurate. About 60-65% accurate. We can not FORCE you to take it. You are within your legal rights to decline. But if you do, you must be hiding sumthin! What are you hiding scum bag? What ya afraid of, huh?!'
TC
"M-O-O-N" That spells "Tom Cullen"
Posted by T.M. Cullen
- Feb 25, 2009, 11:42 PMQuoteTo be fair, even your favorite oft quoted NAS study found accuracy rates significantly above chance for some uses.
To wit, the NAS reported concluded the following:
"Estimate of Accuracy Notwithstanding the limitations of the quality of the empirical research and the limited ability to generalize to real-world settings, we conclude that in populations of examinees such as those represented in the polygraph research literature, untrained in countermeasures, specific-incident polygraph tests for event-specific investigations can discriminate lying from truth telling at rates well above chance, though well below perfection.
Accuracy may be highly variable across situations. The evidence does not allow any precise quantitative estimate of polygraph accuracy or provide confidence that accuracy is stable across personality types, sociodemographic groups, psychological and medical conditions, examiner and examinee expectancies, or ways of administering the test and selecting questions. In particular, the evidence does not provide confidence that polygraph accuracy is robust against potential countermeasures. There is essentially no evidence on the incremental validity of polygraph testing, that is, its ability to add predictive value to that which can be achieved by other methods."
I can't think of anything more absurd, or cruel, than subjecting a retarded person to a polygraph interrogation on the pretext of "getting at the truth" or "eliminating" him/her as a "suspect".
TC
Posted by T.M. Cullen
- Feb 25, 2009, 11:01 PMQuoteTo be fair, even your favorite oft quoted NAS study found accuracy rates significantly above chance for some uses.
To wit, the NAS reported concluded the following:
"Estimate of Accuracy Notwithstanding the limitations of the quality of the empirical research and the limited ability to generalize to real-world settings, we conclude that in populations of examinees such as those represented in the polygraph research literature, untrained in countermeasures, specific-incident polygraph tests for event-specific investigations can discriminate lying from truth telling at rates well above chance, though well below perfection.
Accuracy may be highly variable across situations. The evidence does not allow any precise quantitative estimate of polygraph accuracy or provide confidence that accuracy is stable across personality types, sociodemographic groups, psychological and medical conditions, examiner and examinee expectancies, or ways of administering the test and selecting questions. In particular, the evidence does not provide confidence that polygraph accuracy is robust against potential countermeasures. There is essentially no evidence on the incremental validity of polygraph testing, that is, its ability to add predictive value to that which can be achieved by other methods."
Posted by pailryder
- Feb 25, 2009, 08:13 PMMr Cullen
To be fair, even your favorite oft quoted NAS study found accuracy rates significantly above chance for some uses.
To be fair, even your favorite oft quoted NAS study found accuracy rates significantly above chance for some uses.
Posted by T.M. Cullen
- Feb 25, 2009, 05:54 PMQuoteI have a man in jail who is mentally retarded and need
to know if a polygraph can even be accurate on somone who is
mentally retarded, traumatic brian injury.
Polygraphs have been determined to be inaccurate, unreliable, and scientifically invalid for the non retarded, so I imagine the same would apply for the retarded.
TC
Posted by Liz Lafferty
- Feb 25, 2009, 05:45 PMI need information about using poly graphs on mentally retarded people. I have a man in jail who is mentally retarded and need
to know if a polygraph can even be accurate on somone who is
mentally retarded, traumatic brian injury. Please let me know if
you have any information. Thanks, Liz Lafferty
lizlaffertyventure5@yahoo.com
to know if a polygraph can even be accurate on somone who is
mentally retarded, traumatic brian injury. Please let me know if
you have any information. Thanks, Liz Lafferty
lizlaffertyventure5@yahoo.com
Posted by gelb disliker
- Dec 25, 2005, 01:36 AMAs you can see by now, polygraphs don't work, but its a good way to raise revenue to your local therapy session or LE agency. Anyone convicted of a crime will usually pay dearly and financially. That's all part of the crime "mill" folks. Just a part of the system, one to keep the money flowing to LE agencies, the courts and the judicial "system." Welcome to the real world.
Posted by Smokey
- Dec 19, 2005, 01:11 AMQuoteReg_Sex_Off wrote: Why are polygraphs being forced on sex offenders? Because Sex Offenders are the easiest section of the criminal society to pick on. No one will stand up for thier rights. Not even the ACLU.
As the ploygraph may not be a reliable tool, the investigators believe that it is better that nothing to get confessions. While I don't believe that the ploygraph is useful in employment processes because it simply "weeds out" applicants who interview good though the agency don't like, I think it may be useful in getting confessions out of scumbag sex offenders who prey on children and other innocent victims.
Posted by reg_sex_off
- Dec 18, 2005, 05:19 AMAs you can tell by the log in name what I am. I am replying to this for several reasons. First off I came to this site to find out the laws regarding Parole adding this requirement and if i can refuse it. George can check the logs and see I did not download any reading material on how to beat a Poly.
Its easy to beat a poly, all you have to do is not take one.
Now the reason for my reply:
I have taken 11 polygraphs in 8 years.
I was in a SO treatment program that required them.
First poly i failed. Reason it was on sexual history and what i revealed in treatment and I refused to talk about 1 incident because I might be prosecuted for it even though it happened in 1978 with an adult female.
1 month after failing I revealed some of the circumstances of the incident and passed the next polygraph.
A year later I took a maintenance poly. Passed.
A year after that took an Exit poly. Passed.
2 years later I pissed off my parole officer so she had me take a polygraph. I failed it.
Consequences of that where to see a pysch and take another test. I did, i revealed I had had sex outside of marriage. Not a criminal offense. Took another polygraph and failed.
Consequences- put back into treatment program. Took another polygraph after 6 months of treatment where I did the assignments but did not reveal any further wrong-doing or law breaking. Results- Passed.
A year later took another Exit Poly. Failed.
2 weeks later took another, Failed.
This was at a time of huge emotional distress between my wife and I and looking like I was headed for a divorce. Was told I had to pass the next one or they would violate my parole and send me to prison. I revealed no wrong doing or parole violations. I demanded a different polygrapher. 2weeks later took the test.
Results of test- passed.
Parole said it was a false pass and said I had to use the original polygrapher.
Took his test. Results Passed.
What is the point to all this?
After 8 years of dealing with polygraphs with both pass and failed tests I assure you they are very inaccurate. Since no one can track who is posting this except but what I reveal, I have no reason to lie. Or to tell the truth. You weigh it for yourselves on what to believe or not to believe. I know this. I have committed no crimes that were asked about on the polygraph tests. In fact funny thing is on all the questions regarding crimes since my release from prison, i passed. or at least that was not the questions they(polygraphers) said i showed deception on. Questions i failed were stupid questions about have I told the whole truth to my therapist or my parole officer.
On the last 4 tests the pertininent (spelling) question was wether I had engaged in any sexual relations with anyone other than my wife that I did not reveal to my therapist or parole officer. My answer was no. Remained no and is still no. Why did I fail 2 of the tests and pass the other 2? No one knows. Why did parole say the next to last test was a "false Pass"? Does that mean even they know its the same as flipping a coin?
Now about this site helping criminals.
I dont think it really does. Considering how many people I have personally seen get drastic actions taken against them for failed polygraphs and only have them come back and pass the next one without revealing any thing they lied about on the first test to.
A polygraph is not going to stop someone from committing a crime.
A polygraph as a tool is total BS. Its the same as Good Cop-Bad Cop, or "I will have them go easier on you if you just admit it" and we read everyday how that false promise gets false confessions.
Why are polygraphs being forced on sex offenders? Because Sex Offenders are the easiest section of the criminal society to pick on. No one will stand up for thier rights. Not even the ACLU. I am speaking from experience here. You can be convicted of a felony in this country and serve your time and people will give you a chance to show you will not offend again and you can get housing, employment, and assistance from groups like GoodWill and Easter Seals and the Salvation Army to help you get back into society. With 1 blaring exception. If you are convicted of a sex crime. Then forget it. No one will help. You get laid off if anyone knows of your crime. You can't find employment in any place that has females working in it.
And funny little thing about polygraph examiners. They work out of Sex Offender Treatment program offices and share in the money collected. And if your a Sex offender required to take a polygraph, that polygrapher has to be an "Approved Sex Offender Polygrapher". SO he has close ties with the treatment program. And the treatment program makes its money by having people in treatment. The SO's in treatment have to pay for all this, Plus the state also pays them.
One reason I passed the finale 2 polygraphs even though nothing changed in my "story" was that the state was no longer subsidising my treatment and they couldn't require me to pay more.
Here is an alarming trend I see. They fail you on the polygraphs all the way up until parole is about to put you in prison, then you pass the next poly. Why? because if your in prison, your not in the program, and as such they are not getting paid.
I dont have nothing against the treatment programs. Hell it did me a lot of good. Of course I am not a predator but I see where it does good for others too. I am stead fastly against polygraphs though. I would rather go see a Tarot card reader and have more faith in thier results than i would in a polygraph.
Its easy to beat a poly, all you have to do is not take one.
Now the reason for my reply:
I have taken 11 polygraphs in 8 years.
I was in a SO treatment program that required them.
First poly i failed. Reason it was on sexual history and what i revealed in treatment and I refused to talk about 1 incident because I might be prosecuted for it even though it happened in 1978 with an adult female.
1 month after failing I revealed some of the circumstances of the incident and passed the next polygraph.
A year later I took a maintenance poly. Passed.
A year after that took an Exit poly. Passed.
2 years later I pissed off my parole officer so she had me take a polygraph. I failed it.
Consequences of that where to see a pysch and take another test. I did, i revealed I had had sex outside of marriage. Not a criminal offense. Took another polygraph and failed.
Consequences- put back into treatment program. Took another polygraph after 6 months of treatment where I did the assignments but did not reveal any further wrong-doing or law breaking. Results- Passed.
A year later took another Exit Poly. Failed.
2 weeks later took another, Failed.
This was at a time of huge emotional distress between my wife and I and looking like I was headed for a divorce. Was told I had to pass the next one or they would violate my parole and send me to prison. I revealed no wrong doing or parole violations. I demanded a different polygrapher. 2weeks later took the test.
Results of test- passed.
Parole said it was a false pass and said I had to use the original polygrapher.
Took his test. Results Passed.
What is the point to all this?
After 8 years of dealing with polygraphs with both pass and failed tests I assure you they are very inaccurate. Since no one can track who is posting this except but what I reveal, I have no reason to lie. Or to tell the truth. You weigh it for yourselves on what to believe or not to believe. I know this. I have committed no crimes that were asked about on the polygraph tests. In fact funny thing is on all the questions regarding crimes since my release from prison, i passed. or at least that was not the questions they(polygraphers) said i showed deception on. Questions i failed were stupid questions about have I told the whole truth to my therapist or my parole officer.
On the last 4 tests the pertininent (spelling) question was wether I had engaged in any sexual relations with anyone other than my wife that I did not reveal to my therapist or parole officer. My answer was no. Remained no and is still no. Why did I fail 2 of the tests and pass the other 2? No one knows. Why did parole say the next to last test was a "false Pass"? Does that mean even they know its the same as flipping a coin?
Now about this site helping criminals.
I dont think it really does. Considering how many people I have personally seen get drastic actions taken against them for failed polygraphs and only have them come back and pass the next one without revealing any thing they lied about on the first test to.
A polygraph is not going to stop someone from committing a crime.
A polygraph as a tool is total BS. Its the same as Good Cop-Bad Cop, or "I will have them go easier on you if you just admit it" and we read everyday how that false promise gets false confessions.
Why are polygraphs being forced on sex offenders? Because Sex Offenders are the easiest section of the criminal society to pick on. No one will stand up for thier rights. Not even the ACLU. I am speaking from experience here. You can be convicted of a felony in this country and serve your time and people will give you a chance to show you will not offend again and you can get housing, employment, and assistance from groups like GoodWill and Easter Seals and the Salvation Army to help you get back into society. With 1 blaring exception. If you are convicted of a sex crime. Then forget it. No one will help. You get laid off if anyone knows of your crime. You can't find employment in any place that has females working in it.
And funny little thing about polygraph examiners. They work out of Sex Offender Treatment program offices and share in the money collected. And if your a Sex offender required to take a polygraph, that polygrapher has to be an "Approved Sex Offender Polygrapher". SO he has close ties with the treatment program. And the treatment program makes its money by having people in treatment. The SO's in treatment have to pay for all this, Plus the state also pays them.
One reason I passed the finale 2 polygraphs even though nothing changed in my "story" was that the state was no longer subsidising my treatment and they couldn't require me to pay more.
Here is an alarming trend I see. They fail you on the polygraphs all the way up until parole is about to put you in prison, then you pass the next poly. Why? because if your in prison, your not in the program, and as such they are not getting paid.
I dont have nothing against the treatment programs. Hell it did me a lot of good. Of course I am not a predator but I see where it does good for others too. I am stead fastly against polygraphs though. I would rather go see a Tarot card reader and have more faith in thier results than i would in a polygraph.
Posted by George W. Maschke
- Dec 12, 2005, 06:30 PMNervousOregon,
You might also wish to contact the American Civil Liberties Union of Oregon regarding the situation that prompted you to post here. Their e-mail address is info@aclu-or.org.
You might also wish to contact the American Civil Liberties Union of Oregon regarding the situation that prompted you to post here. Their e-mail address is info@aclu-or.org.
Posted by NervousOregon
- Dec 12, 2005, 06:17 PMThat is part of the problem we have little to no money and there are other possibilities of a lawsuit against the county because of other technicalities of this case but mean while he may end up in jail because of one severely messed up system if he is forced to take the polygraph but is reading up on polygraph's via this site. Part of the problem is finding a good lawyer who will take it on a contingency basis that there will be money in it for them later down the line. But until the supposed criminal matter is cleared up we can not pursue a civil matter very easily because lawyers are not willing to take on both cases since we do not have money for the criminal. However I will contact a lawyer about this specific technicality since I do not believe that public defense will do an effective job. Thank you for your quick response!
Posted by George W. Maschke
- Dec 12, 2005, 06:04 PMQuote from: NervousOregon on Dec 12, 2005, 05:45 PMIn Oregon when one is released on bail they sign a condition of their release that they can be subject to polygraph. Is this really legal? I researched laws pertaining to it but thus far only found ones in regards to if you are a sex offender and they still can not be considered admissible in court hearings. Does anyone have any other information about this and weather or not it is legal.
NervousOregon,
The authorities in your state have in all likelihood been advised by their own attorneys that such a requirement is in conformity with Oregon law. While polygraph "testing" is sheer quackery and should never be relied upon, it would be best to seek the advice of a lawyer regarding the extent to which the Oregon judiciary may (however mistakenly) rely upon it.
Posted by NervousOregon
- Dec 12, 2005, 05:45 PMIn Oregon when one is released on bail they sign a condition of their release that they can be subject to polygraph. Is this really legal? I researched laws pertaining to it but thus far only found ones in regards to if you are a sex offender and they still can not be considered admissible in court hearings. Does anyone have any other information about this and weather or not it is legal.
Posted by gelb disliker
- Dec 06, 2005, 02:20 PMRailroaded,
I must congratulate you on your NOT giving in to the polygraph horror. You are wise to use this site to enrichen yourself to the biased, horrifying outcome that the polygraph can render. Bravo!! to you and your family!!!
Regards
I must congratulate you on your NOT giving in to the polygraph horror. You are wise to use this site to enrichen yourself to the biased, horrifying outcome that the polygraph can render. Bravo!! to you and your family!!!
Regards
Posted by railroaded
- Dec 06, 2005, 10:15 AMQuote from: sm on Aug 09, 2004, 03:44 PMHowever aren't you a bit concerned on who is using this information.I used the information on this board to make the decision to REFUSE taking the polygraph, and in all likelihood it kept me out of prison. I thank you and my children thank you, George.
Quote from: sm on Aug 09, 2004, 03:44 PM I have children, George, and I want them to grow up in a decent society...I have children as well...and there was 50/50 chance that I would have lived the next 50 years in a 6x12 cell without seeing my children if I had taken the polygraph. It was evident from the beginning of the investigation that I was presumed guilty, and I am sure the police polygrapher would have nailed it home with his "test".
Here's the kicker...I AM INNOCENT! I used the information on this site to educate myself about my rights, the procedure and the reliability...nothing more. I didn't come here to learn how to cheat the test. I came here to learn about the test itself and what I read scared the shit out of me. I am an intelligent guy...I could have employed the counter measures to insure a favorable outcome. Instead I learned that contrary to my belief, the test DOESN'T WORK. If I had learned here that it does indeed work, and taking it and being honest would have cleared my name, of course I would have taken it.
What I read here convinced me that the polygraph could only hurt me. I refused to take it and instead insisted that the investigators complete their witch hunt with good old-fashioned police work. You know what they learned? I AM INNOCENT. I would bet dollars to donuts (any of you cops wanna take that bet?) that had I taken the poly I would have failed and the investigation would have ended there....no questions asked...straight to jail.
Instead, I let them interview my kids, my neighbors' kids, my friends' kids...the took all my computer equipment, all my cameras, CDs, etc. You know what they discovered? I AM INNOCENT.
So you can call me a pervert, molester, whatever you want. But the fact of the matter is that I am cleaner than ALL of you...I have been investigated and came out clean. I suffered through the darkest times, I ran the gauntlet of police abuse and community scorn and I walked through the valley of the shadow of death and I have come through the other side as clean as a whistle.
And I have come through in no small part because of the information on this site. So thank you George....from the bottom of my heart. When I tuck my kids into bed at night, or we play at the park or I drop them at school or help with their homework....when I kiss my wife or watch a funny TV show or hear the rain....when I experience all of the little things that would have been taken away by the polygraph had I not educated myself about it, I say a silent thank you to George and this site.