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A forum for free and open discussion of polygraph-related topics
Posted by George W. Maschke
- May 16, 2018, 04:31 PMSharif,
There is no meaningful polygaph appeal process for U.S. citizens who are wrongly branded as liars by their government's polygraph operators. I think the situation can only be worse for non-citizens such as yourself.
I think it would be best to forget about ever working for the U.S. government again. You will have been blacklisted.
Our book The Lie Behind the Lie Detector may be of interest to you to the extent that it will help you understand how you could fail the polygraph despite telling the truth:
https://antipolygraph.org/lie-behind-the-lie-detector.pdf
You may wish to share this information with any friends, family, or colleagues who might consider seeking employment with the U.S. government.
There is no meaningful polygaph appeal process for U.S. citizens who are wrongly branded as liars by their government's polygraph operators. I think the situation can only be worse for non-citizens such as yourself.
I think it would be best to forget about ever working for the U.S. government again. You will have been blacklisted.
Our book The Lie Behind the Lie Detector may be of interest to you to the extent that it will help you understand how you could fail the polygraph despite telling the truth:
https://antipolygraph.org/lie-behind-the-lie-detector.pdf
You may wish to share this information with any friends, family, or colleagues who might consider seeking employment with the U.S. government.
Posted by Sharif
- May 16, 2018, 03:35 PMHello everyone and thanks for helpfull comments and sulotions
I am an Afghan national, and have been working for.DOS about 3 years, i have passed my first poly test, but fail second after 2 years due to the shift duty and not being ready,
Actually being fail with poly-test is a big loss out here, cant find job in any U.S agancy where i have good working experience and a written proof of valuable services which i offered during my duty,
To be honest, i am not alier nor a criminal, have a very clear background in Afghanistan Gov and the long while i was working for DOS here in Afghanistan.
Can i apeal for my 2nd poly-test? and How?
your kind answers are highly appreciated in advance
I am an Afghan national, and have been working for.DOS about 3 years, i have passed my first poly test, but fail second after 2 years due to the shift duty and not being ready,
Actually being fail with poly-test is a big loss out here, cant find job in any U.S agancy where i have good working experience and a written proof of valuable services which i offered during my duty,
To be honest, i am not alier nor a criminal, have a very clear background in Afghanistan Gov and the long while i was working for DOS here in Afghanistan.
Can i apeal for my 2nd poly-test? and How?
your kind answers are highly appreciated in advance
Posted by Marty
- Jun 01, 2004, 04:19 PMQuote from: pillpopper on May 31, 2004, 05:39 PMwell, i can understand that I suppose. The idea of answering yes on a polygraph when you are "supposed" to answer no would definitely cause a reaction in a normal person. But thats a far different issue than asking a control question of someone when they know its bunk no matter what the answer. here are some of the ones they asked me.I don't think it is complete bunk so much as marginal science. What most bugs me is that polygraphers largely use the CQT, which they seem quite wedded to, which requires polygraphers to successfully mislead examinees AND make questionable assumptions that the examinee can be persuaded to lie/worry about the control questions. This will not be the case when the examinee is informed and actually understands the true nature of the polygraph.
Another serious problem is that screening polys, except where actual confessions ensue, are not able to be measured for accuracy. Absent that, it is very natural and human for examiners to assume that virtually every examinee that fails is in fact deceptive on the relevant Qs. Everyone rationalizes what they do and thinks of themselves as "good" - something polygraphers with any training in interrogation will recognize. It is hard to look inward though.
An alternative, the DLCQT (Directed Lie Control Question Test), appears to be used in the DoE in spite of widely believed high false negative rates. Still, it can be given to examinees that are informed and I suspect the large majority in the DoE that are subject to these are informed. One problem is that, in it's formulation, it pretty much invites countermeasures - at least mental countermeasures.
-Marty
Posted by last chance
- Jun 01, 2004, 04:04 PMHi,
I am in the same position, requesting a re-test after a "not within acceptable parameters" performance on the test. I am not sure what to write other than I was honest on the test and I would like a second chance to prove my innocence. Does anyone have any suggestions on what I should add to raise my chances of getting a re-test? I really appreciate it.
Question: after the test, the examiner said that he did not have enough results to make a decision either way so the examiner wrote up another test in front of me. the test included the "problem" questions and other questions that were asked previously. This new test was repeated three times, each time in different order. The whole procedure made me extremely nervous and "sensitive" to the questions. Is this a post-test interrogation technique or just part of the test?
One note: after my test I was told that my results could be judged inconclusive and I might be asked to re-take the test (obviously not).
Thanks.
I am in the same position, requesting a re-test after a "not within acceptable parameters" performance on the test. I am not sure what to write other than I was honest on the test and I would like a second chance to prove my innocence. Does anyone have any suggestions on what I should add to raise my chances of getting a re-test? I really appreciate it.
Question: after the test, the examiner said that he did not have enough results to make a decision either way so the examiner wrote up another test in front of me. the test included the "problem" questions and other questions that were asked previously. This new test was repeated three times, each time in different order. The whole procedure made me extremely nervous and "sensitive" to the questions. Is this a post-test interrogation technique or just part of the test?
One note: after my test I was told that my results could be judged inconclusive and I might be asked to re-take the test (obviously not).
Thanks.
Posted by Bill Crider
- May 31, 2004, 05:39 PMwell, i can understand that I suppose. The idea of answering yes on a polygraph when you are "supposed" to answer no would definitely cause a reaction in a normal person. But thats a far different issue than asking a control question of someone when they know its bunk no matter what the answer. here are some of the ones they asked me.
Posted by Marty
- May 30, 2004, 04:54 PMQuote from: Anonymous on May 30, 2004, 02:22 PMPillpopper,
What you are describing makes perfect sense. I have read through some polygraph literature (can't direct to exactly which publications, don't remember) that describe the machine as recording reactions to questions not based on truth vs deception but rather the level of THREAT the question poses to you.
Assuming you don't know the difference between relevant and control questions and you are not lying on the relevant questions, the examiner expects you to be more threatened by the controls.
Once you know the difference, however, the relevant questions will always be more of a threat to you simply because you know these are the questions you should not respond to. This is really true by default - whether you are lying or not doesn't seem to matter too much at this point. Worrying about not responding only causes you to respond... and fail.
This is my theory - this is also why the polygraph is lame. Sorry to hear about everyone's trouble - I've experienced the same things for the same reasons. Good luck.
Annie and PP,
You are both on target. Matte (one of the best known polygraph authors) even goes so far in Forensic Psychophysiology Using The Polygraph as to say he found that when an examinee couldn't be manipulated into a control question denial he would still score the exam the same.
Matte:
QuoteIn those rare instances when the examinee
insists on furnishing an affirmative answer to control question #23, the examinee's affirmative answer is accepted and has been found by this author to still be an effective control question.
Presumably, the examinee's non-lie doesn't negate the threat value of the control question.
-Marty
Posted by Anonymous
- May 30, 2004, 02:22 PMPillpopper,
What you are describing makes perfect sense. I have read through some polygraph literature (can't direct to exactly which publications, don't remember) that describe the machine as recording reactions to questions not based on truth vs deception but rather the level of THREAT the question poses to you.
Assuming you don't know the difference between relevant and control questions and you are not lying on the relevant questions, the examiner expects you to be more threatened by the controls.
Once you know the difference, however, the relevant questions will always be more of a threat to you simply because you know these are the questions you should not respond to. This is really true by default - whether you are lying or not doesn't seem to matter too much at this point. Worrying about not responding only causes you to respond... and fail.
This is my theory - this is also why the polygraph is lame. Sorry to hear about everyone's trouble - I've experienced the same things for the same reasons. Good luck.
What you are describing makes perfect sense. I have read through some polygraph literature (can't direct to exactly which publications, don't remember) that describe the machine as recording reactions to questions not based on truth vs deception but rather the level of THREAT the question poses to you.
Assuming you don't know the difference between relevant and control questions and you are not lying on the relevant questions, the examiner expects you to be more threatened by the controls.
Once you know the difference, however, the relevant questions will always be more of a threat to you simply because you know these are the questions you should not respond to. This is really true by default - whether you are lying or not doesn't seem to matter too much at this point. Worrying about not responding only causes you to respond... and fail.
This is my theory - this is also why the polygraph is lame. Sorry to hear about everyone's trouble - I've experienced the same things for the same reasons. Good luck.
Posted by Bill Crider
- May 30, 2004, 03:39 AMwell my theory is this. since I knew all this stuff, or at least belileved it to be true, I was utterly paranoid of the revelant questions because I knew the other questions didnt matter.
so, why was I paranoid if i was innocent of the issue? Im not sure. some of it was perhaps guilt about witholding the detail of my research from the polygrapher. some if it may have been a classic sort of failure anxiety. The same sort of phenoemon that explains why I can shoot a free throw better than Shaquille O Neal.
I dont know. I'm looking for answers from the polygraph community. Ive posted on polygraphplace.org and emailed 5 or 6 retired FBI polygraphers Ive found on the internet. I either get no response or some derivative of "Liar Liar, pants on fire"
Its cool if they want to call me a liar. I mean I did fail the test. BUt at least they could say....and here is some scientific proof of why I know you are full of shit. But they never offer any proof, just accuse me of having an agenda.
Im not totally anti-polygraph. Its a great interrogation tool I imagine for the person guilty of a specific crime. But I think its full of shit for mass general employment screening.
so, why was I paranoid if i was innocent of the issue? Im not sure. some of it was perhaps guilt about witholding the detail of my research from the polygrapher. some if it may have been a classic sort of failure anxiety. The same sort of phenoemon that explains why I can shoot a free throw better than Shaquille O Neal.
I dont know. I'm looking for answers from the polygraph community. Ive posted on polygraphplace.org and emailed 5 or 6 retired FBI polygraphers Ive found on the internet. I either get no response or some derivative of "Liar Liar, pants on fire"
Its cool if they want to call me a liar. I mean I did fail the test. BUt at least they could say....and here is some scientific proof of why I know you are full of shit. But they never offer any proof, just accuse me of having an agenda.
Im not totally anti-polygraph. Its a great interrogation tool I imagine for the person guilty of a specific crime. But I think its full of shit for mass general employment screening.
Posted by Marty
- May 28, 2004, 02:45 AMQuote from: pillpopper on May 27, 2004, 06:34 PMyou are correct. now i am looking for help on how to appeal. this is the best site for that. I have also corresponded with polygraphers ffrom pro-poly sites in the last 2 days.
actually, i avoided this site for weeks before my 2nd poly thinking it would not affect me then.
i believe I would have passed without visiting this site. knowledge of all the stuff printed here made me incredibly nervous.
So why exactly do you believe this site made you more likely to fail? Do you believe this site lies about how polygraphs are conducted? Or, if accurate, that knowing the details made you more likely to fail without using CMs?
I tend to believe that information about polys, absent use of CM's, does increase the odds of false positives but there are no published studies on this of which I am aware. One must assume polygraphers believe this as I doubt they would lie if they did not believe it made the polygraph more accurate.
-Marty
Posted by Bill Crider
- May 27, 2004, 10:09 PMi believe it to be unethical to use countermeasures
Posted by Kona
- May 27, 2004, 09:17 PMUndesireable and Pillpopper,
Sorry to hear of your results.
May I ask why you didn't use countermeasures knowing everything that you know about the polygraph?
Kona
Sorry to hear of your results.
May I ask why you didn't use countermeasures knowing everything that you know about the polygraph?
Kona
Posted by Bill Crider
- May 27, 2004, 06:34 PMyou are correct. now i am looking for help on how to appeal. this is the best site for that. I have also corresponded with polygraphers ffrom pro-poly sites in the last 2 days.
actually, i avoided this site for weeks before my 2nd poly thinking it would not affect me then.
i believe I would have passed without visiting this site. knowledge of all the stuff printed here made me incredibly nervous.
if i do get a re-test then I will go into detail about everything relateing to this site that causes me angst. if that doesnt do it, then it wasnt mean to be.
undesirable, will you tell me what you put in your appeal letter that was successful in getting your re-test?
did you tell your polygrapher that you had read all this stuff? I did not, i only said that i had visited internet sites.
actually, i avoided this site for weeks before my 2nd poly thinking it would not affect me then.
i believe I would have passed without visiting this site. knowledge of all the stuff printed here made me incredibly nervous.
if i do get a re-test then I will go into detail about everything relateing to this site that causes me angst. if that doesnt do it, then it wasnt mean to be.
undesirable, will you tell me what you put in your appeal letter that was successful in getting your re-test?
did you tell your polygrapher that you had read all this stuff? I did not, i only said that i had visited internet sites.
Posted by An Observer
- May 27, 2004, 06:26 PMQuote from: pillpopper on May 27, 2004, 06:10 PMthis is exactly what happened to me. ( i am the same as 2 time loser and cave run on this post)
no offense, but this sites only hurts innocent people who dont use countermeasures. just knowing what i knew made me "feel" deceptive during my poly
Then why do you spend so damned much time on it every day? You've studied the whole site backwards and forwards and read TLBTLD a dozen times I'm sure...
Posted by Bill Crider
- May 27, 2004, 06:10 PMthis is exactly what happened to me. ( i am the same as 2 time loser and cave run on this post)
I failed my re-test and was very tense during the test knowing when the relvelants were coming. I am going to send in my letter as well. my first test was inconclusive. the fact that you got a re-test after a fail gives me some hope that i'll get 1 more chance to fail it
no offense, but this sites only hurts innocent people who dont use countermeasures. just knowing what i knew made me "feel" deceptive during my poly
and no, im not some polygrapher trying to back door anyone. I just had my 2nd poly on monday and failed
I failed my re-test and was very tense during the test knowing when the relvelants were coming. I am going to send in my letter as well. my first test was inconclusive. the fact that you got a re-test after a fail gives me some hope that i'll get 1 more chance to fail it
no offense, but this sites only hurts innocent people who dont use countermeasures. just knowing what i knew made me "feel" deceptive during my poly
and no, im not some polygrapher trying to back door anyone. I just had my 2nd poly on monday and failed
Posted by Undesirebale Candidate
- May 27, 2004, 04:23 PMAll interested parties-
Just an update. I failed my second poly, no surprises there. I noticed that during the 'in-test' phase, I was anticipating the relevant questions just as I did during my first test. I suspect this contributed to my failure, as no countermeasures were attempted. I would have to say that visiting this site and reading other's accounts of polygraph tests before submitting to one's own increase the apprehension about the test, and therefore may significantly contribute to increased chances of failure. I don't plan to contest the results this time. I don't see any point to it, although I will request all records of my previous polygraphs citing the FOIA.
Regards,
Undesireable
Just an update. I failed my second poly, no surprises there. I noticed that during the 'in-test' phase, I was anticipating the relevant questions just as I did during my first test. I suspect this contributed to my failure, as no countermeasures were attempted. I would have to say that visiting this site and reading other's accounts of polygraph tests before submitting to one's own increase the apprehension about the test, and therefore may significantly contribute to increased chances of failure. I don't plan to contest the results this time. I don't see any point to it, although I will request all records of my previous polygraphs citing the FOIA.
Regards,
Undesireable