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A forum for free and open discussion of polygraph-related topics
Posted by G Scalabr
- Sep 25, 2001, 09:45 AMQuoteSue your polygrapher
Lou, I concur with George on this one. You should speak to a lawyer (or lawyers) in your area and fully explore the viability of filing a lawsuit against this scam artist. If you have (or can get) a copy of the document where the examiner explains that he does not render inconclusive decisions, you should be able to establish a prima facie case of misconduct.
Nonetheless, we are not qualified to give legal advice. Once again, I strongly suggest that you see a lawyer.
Posted by George W. Maschke
- Sep 25, 2001, 06:58 AMLou,
I have another idea regarding your fifth question:
Sue your polygrapher. I suggest that you consult with a trial lawyer in this regard. Although your polygrapher probably demanded that you sign a waiver form releasing him from liability before he administered the "test," he probably didn't tell you that he would lie to you about the nature of the procedure, either. There is a legal concept enshrined in the Latin maxim, fraus omnia vitiat (fraud vitiates everything); any waiver of liability you may have signed might well be null and void on account of the polygrapher's fraudulent conduct.
I have another idea regarding your fifth question:
Quote5. "I would like verification in some way or other that I either have some options of recourse or that I should live with the injustic
Sue your polygrapher. I suggest that you consult with a trial lawyer in this regard. Although your polygrapher probably demanded that you sign a waiver form releasing him from liability before he administered the "test," he probably didn't tell you that he would lie to you about the nature of the procedure, either. There is a legal concept enshrined in the Latin maxim, fraus omnia vitiat (fraud vitiates everything); any waiver of liability you may have signed might well be null and void on account of the polygrapher's fraudulent conduct.
Posted by G Scalabr
- Sep 25, 2001, 01:21 AMQuote[I have been duped haven't IUnfortunately, yes. As you may now know from reading The Lie Behind the Lie Detector, the entire polygraph process is dependent on trickery. Essentially, the whole thing is one big scam.
QuoteDid this guy seem ethical or is this normal procedure for testers?Behavior considered unethical and grounds for discipline in nearly any other profession is par for the course for polygraphers. This includes misrepresentation, straight out lying, profane and abusive language, intimidation, etc. Regrettably, it does little good making any complaint to polygraphers' associations etc.
QuoteHow can these possibly be admitted into court as evidence for anything??"Fortunately, an overwhelming majority of courts do not allow for the admission of polygraph chart readings into evidence.
QuoteI was told my test had a 98.5% odds of being correct. Not bad odds, rightOnce again, you were lied to. Polygraph "tests" have never been shown to be more accurate than chance in a peer-reviewed scientific study done under field conditions. Studies purporting 90+% accuracy, etc, have been done by polygraphers and published in polygraph and law enforcement journals and/or performed via "mock crime" scenarios.
QuoteI would like verification in some way or other that I either have some options of recourse or that I should live with the injusticeThe fact is that there is no device that can reliably detect truthfulness in today's society. I can understand how you made your mistake, considering the polygraph's position as an accurate "lie detector" in American popular culture (not to mention some of the stuff that the corrupt lie detection industry puts out in the name of profits). In the future, I suggest spending your money on marriage counseling, not flawed pseudoscientific attempts at lie detection. You also may wish to print up and bind a copy of The Lie Behind the Lie Detector and read it together with your husband.
QuoteLet me know what I can do to help stop poly tests as being looked at as anything other than a fun game the poly tester gets to play as he wraps the coils under and over the lady's bosoms and gets paid for it too. Unbelievable!
Speaking of polygraph examiner incomes, here is some information that you may find even more unbelievable. One can become a polygraph examiner after taking an eight-week course for which there is no firm education pre-requisite. Even barbers must attend 26 weeks of schooling before being licensed to cut hair. This examiner charged you $600 for a "test" that I assume took 2-3 hours. Besides professional athletes and other celebrities, I can think of no other occupation where one with no college education can earn $2-300 per hour. There is little surprise that polygraph examiners so fiercely defend their scam.
If you wish to help put an end to the voodoo science of polygraphy, I encourage you to check out our Get Involved page. We provide the book and other materials on this website for free because we genuinely want to see polygraph "tests" abolished. One of the best ways to see this happen would be for congress to remove the governmental exemptions to the 1988 Employee Polygraph Protection Act. For this reason, we ask those who have found the book useful to consider taking the short amount of time necessary to write the prominent senators listed on the page and your own Senators and representatives (please send paper mail, not e-mail). We have a sample letter on the page—feel free to borrow from it. Your elected representatives need to know that polygraph "tests" are highly inaccurate, easily beaten, and thus a detriment to national security. These "tests" need to be abolished.
Posted by George W. Maschke
- Sep 25, 2001, 01:04 AMQuote from: lou on Sep 24, 2001, 10:20 PM
The issues on the table now are,
1. "I have been dupped havent I?" ?2. ?quot; Did this guy seem ethical or is this normal procedure for testors."
3. "How can these possibly be admitted into court as evidence for anything??"
4. "I was told my test had a 98.5% odds of being correct. Not bad odds, right???"
5. "I would like verification in some way or other that I either have some options of recourse or that I should live with the injustice."
1. Yes, you have been duped.
2. One thing you noted in an earlier message seems to be a violation of the American Polygraph Association code of ethics. You wrote: "He gave me papers to read AFTER the test that stated he does not render inconclusive decisions..." But section 4.2.1 of the APA Code of Ethics (Standards of Rendering Polygraph Decisions) states:
Quote4.2.1 A member shall not render a conclusive diagnosis when the physiological records lack sufficient quality and clarity. This may include, but is not limited to, excessively distorted recordings possibly due to manipulations by the examinee, recordings with insufficient responsivity, or recordings with tracing amplitudes less than that generally accepted by the profession.
3. Polygraph results are only admitted as evidence in court because the public at large (including many judges) remain ignorant about polygraphy and have the false impression that it is a science-based procedure. Although as beech trees noted, polygraph chart readings are generally inadmissible as evidence in criminal cases, though in some courts polygraph "evidence" may be admitted if the prosecution and the defense stipulate to its admissibility before the administration of the "test." And polygraph results often appear in court in other contexts. For example, in applying to the court for a search warrant, law enforcement officials can cite a failed polygraph "test" as "evidence." Consent to polygraph testing is often made a condition of plea bargain arrangements, and a failed "test" can be used as evidence that a defendant did not uphold his/her end of the bargain. Similarly, polygraph "testing" is often made a condition of probation or parole. And in civil cases in some courts, polygraph "evidence" may be admissible.
4. Your polygrapher's claim that your polygraph "test" had a 98.5% likelihood of being correct is sheer rubbish.
5. As beech trees noted, there are always options. One that you might consider is to print out a copy of The Lie Behind the Lie Detector to read together with your husband. He needs to understand that polygraphy is a fraud (and that, for example, by honestly answering the "control" questions, you were increasing the likelihood that you would "fail."
As to how we can get this information to the public so other suffering can be reduced, one thing you can do is to tell others about this site, and to participate in this message board. At times messages are posted (especially to the Action Alerts & Announcements forum) about specific things that can be done to help increase public awareness of polygraphy.
Posted by beech trees
- Sep 24, 2001, 11:47 PMQuote from: lou on Sep 24, 2001, 10:20 PMI downloaded the Lie Behind the Lie Detector. Am reading it. The issues on the table now are,
1. " I have been dupped havent I?"
Perhaps unintentionally by your husband. Many people are under the mistaken impression that polygraphy is a legitimate science. Certainly, you were intentionally duped by your polygrapher. And, incidentally, $600.00 is an outrageous, breathtaking amount of money for a test. As you now know, and will learn more clearly as you digest The Lie Behind The Lie Detector, your first mistake was in trusting the psuedo-science of polygraphy as a means for determining the truth, and your last was trusting your polygraph interrogator at all.
Quote2. " Did this guy seem ethical or is this normal procedure for testors."
I have read and been told that many polygraphers charge what they think they can get away with, being dependent on the examinee's ignorance and sometimes fear. Contributors to this board have noted huge disparities in polygraph interrogation fees from one exam to the next. I suppose a certain portion of the blame falls to the examinee, i.e., caveat emptor.
Quote3. " How can these possibly be admitted into court as evidence for anything??"
They aren't in almost every court in the US. Here is an excerpt from a recent Circuit Court ruling (9th Circuit) in USA v. Cordoba:
"The reliability of polygraph testing fundamentally depends on the reliability of the protocol followed during the examination. After considering the evidence and briefing, the court concludes the proposed polygraph evidence is not admissible under Fed. R. Evid. 702. Although capable of testing and subject to peer review, no reliable error rate conclusions are available for real-life polygraph testing. Additionally, there is no general acceptance in the scientific community for the courtroom fact-determinative use proposed here. Finally, there are no reliable and accepted standards controlling polygraphy. Without such standards, there is no way to ensure proper protocol, or measure the reliability of a polygraph examination. Without such standards, the proposed polygraph evidence is inadmissible because it is not based on reliable 'scientific knowledge.'"
Put simply, there is no evidence in any peer-reviewed scientific literature that polygraphers can detect truth or falsehood at better than chance levels of accuracy. The Courts know this and thus dismiss polygraphy as a valid truth-finding technique. Indeed, the F.B.I.'s foremost expert on polygraphy, Dr. Drew Richardson, recently opined: "[polygraph screening] is completely without any theoretical foundation and has absolutely no validity." (Subcommittee on Administrative Oversight and the Courts on the 29th day of September, 1997)
Quote4. " I was told my test had a 98.5% odds of being correct. Not bad odds, right???"
Hmmmm.... let me guess, were you told this by... let me think... your polygrapher, by any chance?
Quote5. " I would like verification in some way or other that I either have some options of recourse or that I should live with the injustice."
There are always options, dear lady. Always.
QuoteI am so disallusioned. How can we get this info into the public so other suffering can be reduced. I am glad I am not on trial for murder, or that I had to depend on this travesty to keep custody of my kids, etc. In my work, I see pollice reports often and see poly tests as "evidence." How these lives are changed because of poly tests. Let me know what I can do to help stop poly tests as being looked at as anything other than a fun game the poly testor gets to play as he wraps the coils under and over the ladys bosoms and gets paid for it too. Unbelievable!
Were you touched inappropriately by your examiner? Perhaps contacting the authorities and filing a complaint is in order.
Posted by lou
- Sep 24, 2001, 10:20 PM
Yes he will. Thank you for your reply. I agree with your assessment of the reasoning behind taking the poly test. However, that is a different issue at this time.
I downloaded the Lie Behind the Lie Detector. Am reading it. I wish I had it before the test. This should be required reading in the 12th grade of highschool. I could have spent $600 in a much better way.
The issues on the table now are,
1. " I have been dupped havent I?"
2. " Did this guy seem ethical or is this normal procedure for testors."
3. " How can these possibly be admitted into court as evidence for anything??"
4. " I was told my test had a 98.5% odds of being correct. Not bad odds, right???"
5. " I would like verification in some way or other that I either have some options of recourse or that I should live with the injustice."
I am so disallusioned. How can we get this info into the public so other suffering can be reduced. I am glad I am not on trial for murder, or that I had to depend on this travesty to keep custody of my kids, etc. In my work, I see pollice reports often and see poly tests as "evidence." How these lives are changed because of poly tests. Let me know what I can do to help stop poly tests as being looked at as anything other than a fun game the poly testor gets to play as he wraps the coils under and over the ladys bosoms and gets paid for it too. Unbelievable!
Posted by beech trees
- Sep 24, 2001, 09:07 PMQuoteMy husband recently accused me of doing something compromising with another man. What he thought he "saw" was very different from what I did. Most of the parts of "what he saw" fit with what the other man and I were doing which was a very innocent and honorable task. Hubby "saw" a filthy dirty act that didn't happen. (note: he called the other man, hubbys own good friend - I didnt know him well, and called him dirty names, asked what went on, and the other guy just didnt want to have anything to do with this kind of bizarre thing.)
I won't comment on the above except to say, for the purposes of this argument, I will believe your assertions of innocence.
QuoteSo.....
I took a polygraph at my own insistance and expense to PROVE the truth to him. I knew the truth and knew I would pass the poly. I FAILED! What gives?? How could this happen? ... This polygraph backed him up so he will never consider believing me again. This polygraph has destroyed all trust, love, and intimacy in our marriage.
Unfortunately, you fell victim to the notion that polygraphs, i.e, 'lie detectors' are scientifically accurate and can actually detect lies from truth. Unfortunately, that is just not so, and anyone who tells you otherwise is a liar.
To understand exactly why you failed, I would strongly urge you to download and read the free publication available through this website entitled, The Lie Behind The Lie Detector. Once you have an understanding of how a polygrapher decides whether or not you're being truthful, I think it will be clear to you how you 'failed'.
QuoteHelp! What can I do?? Just walk away with my reputation and marriage destroyed?
I'm not comfortable offering that type of advice, but I would offer an objective observation: Your husband is deluded both by his jealousy and his incorrect belief that a polygraph is the final arbiter of truth in this matter. And, respectfully, why would you wish to stay with someone who doesn't trust you at your word? What parts of 'love, honor, and cherish' doesn't he understand?
QuotePlease, can anyone give me some advice as to 1) how this could happen, 2) what can I do now to nuetralize the destruction of this poly test. I am an intelligent college grad and just assumed that I could go in, take the test, tell the truth, and the results would be good. NOT! I didnt study "countermeasures" and still dont know what they are.
You can bet I will research now. But for the time being, any suggestions as to what I should do?? Hubby isn't going to be shy revealing that I failed the test. Could I pass a second test, would that counter the first?
Once you understand the simplistic machinations behind a polygraph exam and are comfortable with countermeasures, you could pass thousands of polygraph exams, but to what end? If, after explaining to your husband why polygraphs are more voodoo than science, he still gives credence to the results, why not take another exam and pass it? Where will you be then? Your husband will still be suspicious, won't he?
Posted by lou
- Sep 24, 2001, 07:21 PMA second note:
There were only 4 questions allowed to be answered yes or no. The questions were not specific, such as "Have you ever hugged (his name). " Answer needed to be "no" which was a truthful answer. I don't know if he found that statement true or not. However, testor stated he " did not find enough truthful answers, whatever that means. How many were enough? What else did he basis his opinion on? Was his opinion objective, based on reasonable facts, OR was his opinion based subjectively as to what I looked like when I walked into the room, how I acted, what I told him I am ashamed of about my past, etc. I was angry just being there - that I had to subject myself to a poly to get my husband to even consider that I was telling the truth. Was that a factor??
One of the control questions was "have you ever done anything in your life that you are ashamed about." So, being an honest person, I dragged any dirty laundry out into the open so I could answer that question "yes." I should have lied there shouldn't I have. I just gave the testor ammunition to condemn me for mistakes made 30 years ago that I'm still ashamed of, didnt I? Therefore, I failed the test.
His letter of evalution sent to me simply stated "he did not find enough truthful answers to pass." Shouldn't he have given me some charts, or other criteria he based his opinion on? He gave me papers to read AFTER the test that stated he does not render inconclusive decisions and also what methods of testing are available, etc.
Was he unscrupulous in his poly of me. He charged me $200 to meet me to test in a motel room and the test itself was an additional $400. I was so stunned with his results I couldn't stand up from the table.
What recourse might I have with this test and/or testor? Help please.
There were only 4 questions allowed to be answered yes or no. The questions were not specific, such as "Have you ever hugged (his name). " Answer needed to be "no" which was a truthful answer. I don't know if he found that statement true or not. However, testor stated he " did not find enough truthful answers, whatever that means. How many were enough? What else did he basis his opinion on? Was his opinion objective, based on reasonable facts, OR was his opinion based subjectively as to what I looked like when I walked into the room, how I acted, what I told him I am ashamed of about my past, etc. I was angry just being there - that I had to subject myself to a poly to get my husband to even consider that I was telling the truth. Was that a factor??
One of the control questions was "have you ever done anything in your life that you are ashamed about." So, being an honest person, I dragged any dirty laundry out into the open so I could answer that question "yes." I should have lied there shouldn't I have. I just gave the testor ammunition to condemn me for mistakes made 30 years ago that I'm still ashamed of, didnt I? Therefore, I failed the test.
His letter of evalution sent to me simply stated "he did not find enough truthful answers to pass." Shouldn't he have given me some charts, or other criteria he based his opinion on? He gave me papers to read AFTER the test that stated he does not render inconclusive decisions and also what methods of testing are available, etc.
Was he unscrupulous in his poly of me. He charged me $200 to meet me to test in a motel room and the test itself was an additional $400. I was so stunned with his results I couldn't stand up from the table.
What recourse might I have with this test and/or testor? Help please.
Posted by Lou (Guest)
- Sep 24, 2001, 06:21 PM
My husband recently accused me of doing something compromising with another man. What he thought he "saw" was very different from what I did. Most of the parts of "what he saw" fit with what the other man and I were doing which was a very innocent and honorable task. Hubby "saw" a filthy dirty act that didn't happen. (note: he called the other man, hubbys own good friend - I didnt know him well, and called him dirty names, asked what went on, and the other guy just didnt want to have anything to do with this kind of bizarre thing.)So.....
I took a polygraph at my own insistance and expense to PROVE the truth to him. I knew the truth and knew I would pass the poly. I FAILED! What gives?? How could this happen? I am an upstanding, good, christian lady who enjoys a wonderful reputation in town. This "act" he "saw" is totally out of character for me as my husband and friends will all attest to. I did not do the filth he says I did. This polygraph backed him up so he will never consider believing me again. This polygraph has destroyed all trust, love, and intimacy in our marriage. Our marriage, which was typically good with its ups and downs like normal marriages have, is destroyed.
Help! What can I do?? Just walk away with my reputation and marriage destroyed? Please, can anyone give me some advice as to 1) how this could happen, 2) what can I do now to nuetralize the destruction of this poly test. I am an intelligent college grad and just assumed that I could go in, take the test, tell the truth, and the results would be good. NOT! I didnt study "countermeasures" and still dont know what they are.
You can bet I will research now. But for the time being, any suggestions as to what I should do?? Hubby isn't going to be shy revealing that I failed the test.
Could I pass a second test, would that counter the first?
Thanks, Lou